no power to waste pump

[ssmiley]

I went to empty tanks on my Class B Era RV and the pump would not turn on. I had not had a previous problem with this. The fuse panel indicates the fuse is OK. Is there another power cut off or fuse in system? Or a reset on the pump?

[creativepart]

Do you have the house battery turned on? Or maybe the chassis battery? I'm not sure which operates the pump.

[ssmiley]

Yes house and Cassie batteries are on. The water pump and lights all work Not a sound from the sewer pump

[Morich]

Since the Era has been made since at least 2012 and comes in a number of different models each year, it is really hard to search out much info to help without knowing which RV you have.
Without specifics, my best suggestion would be to search out the pump and check the wiring for both battery suppy and groundIt may be something as simple as a corroded wire at some point but it cuts the chase a whole bunch to know whether it is a power problem or possibly a ground not beging good.

[dkoldman]

I had a similar issue two days ago.

I have a Flojet Macerator pump and I have used for 14 months with no issue. I was winterizing for the 2nd time this season and only needed to drain the waste tanks.

With everything hooked up, I pressed the on switch and it ran 3 secs and stopped. It never restarted, no hum no nothing.

- The fuse was fine.
- The Impeller would turn easily
- No breaker tripped on inside
- I was getting 12.54 vdc at the connection to the switch.
- I verified the switch was functioning properly
- Tried calling Xylem and they were closed due to the holidays
- So I cut the lead wires and try to bypass the power and it still didn't work
- Then I took it apart, the entire thing, didn't see anything wrong
- There was one part that look like a sensor or thermal switch or something but I had no idea and I left it alone, I didn't have the part anyway
- I put it all back together, which was a tad challenging but I did
- Tried again with direct power and it was dead.
- So assuming my motor was shot, we drive the RV to a local RV park and I dump everything
- Feeling relieved that I was 100% winterized I started to play with the pump again
I take my portable charger and connect the leads to my flojet and crank it up to 50 amps, it started right up

- I don't know why. It didn't run long enough to even get warm; so I don't know why it shut down. It was about 4 hours total from when it stopped to when I got it to run again.

- In the meantime, I ordered new sea dog 12vdc connectors so in the future if I need to separate from my otherwise hardwired switch; I can simply unplug it to test or work with it

[Morich]

The one thing not mentioned may be that the charger gave different, or at least not mentioned is the grounding. When connected to the charger, you have a full circle/circuit but did you check the ground before removing the pump?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

The one thing not mentioned may be that the charger gave different, or at least not mentioned is the grounding. When connected to the charger, you have a full circle/circuit but did you check the ground before removing the pump?

If this was intended for me...?

My 12vd power is supplied from positive post on genset and ground is underneath the genny. When I checked the black and red wire connector I got 12.54vdc. I assume that means I have to have a ground to get that reading? Does that qualify or you have something else I should check?

But you are correct. I have not reconnected the Flojet because I am waiting on new connectors to confirm that Flojet will work off the coach, I just confirmed it worked using the charger and got all excited that my $250 pump is still alive.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

If this was intended for me...?

My 12vd power is supplied from positive post on genset and ground is underneath the genny. When I checked the black and red wire connector I got 12.54vdc. I assume that means I have to have a ground to get that reading? Does that qualify or you have something else I should check?

But you are correct. I have not reconnected the Flojet because I am waiting on new connectors to confirm that Flojet will work off the coach, I just confirmed it worked using the charger and got all excited that my $250 pump is still alive.

Sorry, I shoud have been more specific as to which problem.
What I was asking/ mentioning was that the problem we often have is that we look for power at the pump and forget to check that it has a FULL circle of power to the pump but also a ground reaching the pump to make the full circuit.
What I was thinking was that you might have checked for the hot side, saw it good but not checked for ground right at the pump connections. Then when you took the pump out and connected it to both leads from a charger, you would be giving it a full in and out for the circuit.

That's where I have to be carefull and not assume that others do the same testing as I might have. RV wiring is not like others that we might be used to checking, and those connections at the pump are not always direct power and ground. Where on a house circuit we are more prone to expect both hot and neutral due to houses being wired with Romex, the RV may string things out along the hot sied and only add ground here and there in weird seeming points since they are often just single wires in a big wiring set.

Just saying that we need to be awareto check for power on items but also look with the meter to see the other side does show ground.

You mave done it right but I wanted to check, as something simple like a corroded connection on the ground side might be easy to miss if you pull the connections apart, tied the pump to the charger and it worked and then when you put it back it still worked because disconnecting and reconnecting the pump may have knocked the corrosion off the contacts!

One of the reasons I stopped going to Rv repair was that I saw them jst to "testing " by simply putting in a new item like a $200 board without checking the contacts to that board first. Sometimes we can "fix" a bad pump if we take the connections loose and put them back together but that is only if the corrosion is at the pump, not 20 feet away at a some other point that got corroded!

But that is all part of how we each do things and my way is NOT the only way!!!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Sorry, I shoud have been more specific as to which problem.
What I was asking/ mentioning was that the problem we often have is that we look for power at the pump and forget to check that it has a FULL circle of power to the pump but also a ground reaching the pump to make the full circuit.
What I was thinking was that you might have checked for the hot side, saw it good but not checked for ground right at the pump connections. Then when you took the pump out and connected it to both leads from a charger, you would be giving it a full in and out for the circuit.

That's where I have to be carefull and not assume that others do the same testing as I might have. RV wiring is not like others that we might be used to checking, and those connections at the pump are not always direct power and ground. Where on a house circuit we are more prone to expect both hot and neutral due to houses being wired with Romex, the RV may string things out along the hot sied and only add ground here and there in weird seeming points since they are often just single wires in a big wiring set.

Just saying that we need to be awareto check for power on items but also look with the meter to see the other side does show ground.

You mave done it right but I wanted to check, as something simple like a corroded connection on the ground side might be easy to miss if you pull the connections apart, tied the pump to the charger and it worked and then when you put it back it still worked because disconnecting and reconnecting the pump may have knocked the corrosion off the contacts!

One of the reasons I stopped going to Rv repair was that I saw them jst to "testing " by simply putting in a new item like a $200 board without checking the contacts to that board first. Sometimes we can "fix" a bad pump if we take the connections loose and put them back together but that is only if the corrosion is at the pump, not 20 feet away at a some other point that got corroded!

But that is all part of how we each do things and my way is NOT the only way!!!

In my case if I did not have a good a good ground, I would not have been able to show 12.54vdc at the connector.

It is getting warmer now and my new connectors are on order. When I receive and install; I will be able to confirm. With my new connectors, in future; I may leave the Flojet connected and only unplug the switch connector (why the new seadog co9nnectors are on order), It will be easy to test in future as well without me having to cut the wires.

But lets say it does work, I still have to find out what happened. I may call xylem, but if I do, I will wait to have 100% confirmation that it is working again connected to RV.

[Dynadave]

Make sure the pump impeller isn’t jammed or stuck. You may have a metal tab or plate on the end of the motor which you can open. Insert a flat screw driver into the slot on the motor shaft and turn it back and forth to insure it rotates freely, your problem may not be electrical, unless you have verified that there is no power at the pump motor.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Sorry, I shoud have been more specific as to which problem.
What I was asking/ mentioning was that the problem we often have is that we look for power at the pump and forget to check that it has a FULL circle of power to the pump but also a ground reaching the pump to make the full circuit.
What I was thinking was that you might have checked for the hot side, saw it good but not checked for ground right at the pump connections. Then when you took the pump out and connected it to both leads from a charger, you would be giving it a full in and out for the circuit.

That's where I have to be carefull and not assume that others do the same testing as I might have. RV wiring is not like others that we might be used to checking, and those connections at the pump are not always direct power and ground. Where on a house circuit we are more prone to expect both hot and neutral due to houses being wired with Romex, the RV may string things out along the hot sied and only add ground here and there in weird seeming points since they are often just single wires in a big wiring set.

Just saying that we need to be awareto check for power on items but also look with the meter to see the other side does show ground.

You mave done it right but I wanted to check, as something simple like a corroded connection on the ground side might be easy to miss if you pull the connections apart, tied the pump to the charger and it worked and then when you put it back it still worked because disconnecting and reconnecting the pump may have knocked the corrosion off the contacts!

One of the reasons I stopped going to Rv repair was that I saw them jst to "testing " by simply putting in a new item like a $200 board without checking the contacts to that board first. Sometimes we can "fix" a bad pump if we take the connections loose and put them back together but that is only if the corrosion is at the pump, not 20 feet away at a some other point that got corroded!

But that is all part of how we each do things and my way is NOT the only way!!!

Morich,

I finally had some time to get back at this flojet macerator. My new connector has still not arrived so I decided to follow through with your test this morning.

When I manually connected the hot / ground leads to the RV connector, the pump does not work.

When I go connect the pump to leads on my external garage charger the pumps works fine.

When I check the voltage on the the RV connector I show 12.41 vdc, but I get nothing when wires touch the connectors

So I am not sure how to check a ground? I always thought if I had voltage I had to have a ground?

The RV connector I refer to was one i installed more than a year ago. the hot is on the generator's positive post and the ground is screw on frame under the generator.

[Morich]

To check for ground with a meter there are a couple ways.
since you have a meter and set to look for voltage, one way is to putone meter lead on the voltage and one on some metal part like the frame to verify that you have it all right and do get a voltage teading. Test the test first?
Then leave the meter lead on the voltage/hot wire and move the other lead to the wire which should be ground. If you getthe same voltage reading as before, you can say that wire is ground!

But many prefer to get an actual resistance reading that shows how good that ground is.
So if you change the meter setting to read ohms (the funny upside down horseshoe?), touch the two leads together and make sure it is all good by getting a very low reading like under 10 ohms. That makes sure all the leads are in place and the small reading can come from the resistance of the leads themselves. Again, you are testing the test!

Once you knw the meter is set right, put one lead on the frame ground, etc and the other on the wire you think should be ground and get a reading. That reading should be pretty low but there is not firm answer what it will be as the ground wire may go along ways before being attached to ground and if you have the meter set to read really low resistance with one of the really low scales, it can show something like 25 ohms because the groundwire has that much resitance in it. Most of the time, we are not going to be looking at readings in between but more often it will be good or open and no reading.
That's where we each kind of work into using our meter in different ways. Some like to test the meterset up first and others go with not testing the test until they don't get what they expect! If you expect a ground and don't find it, then is a good time to make sure the test is right before going someplace to look for the problem. Sometimes the problem is just that we've knocked one of the meter lead clips off or failed to plug the lead into the meter!
Always good to learn to recheck things---even when we're sure we did it right! One of the bigger things to check is that the metalpoint you are using as ground is really connected to ground and that you are getting the probe really on the metal. Paint or rust will make somethings like a screwhead look like it is a good ground but not! So if one test doesn't look right, make sure the lead is actually making good contact!

And it was pointed out to me recently that I did not mention testing for voltage first before going into the resistance testing. This can be critical on some meters as using the resistance setting and getting on voltage can blow a fuse in some meters. Not a big deal usually but it does mess things up if you have to stop and replace the meter fuse!
That makes it important to ID any voltage before testing on the resistance scales. Stay off hot wires when on resistance scales!!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

To check for ground with a meter there are a couple ways.
since you have a meter and set to look for voltage, one way is to putone meter lead on the voltage and one on some metal part like the frame to verify that you have it all right and do get a voltage teading. Test the test first?
Then leave the meter lead on the voltage/hot wire and move the other lead to the wire which should be ground. If you getthe same voltage reading as before, you can say that wire is ground!

But many prefer to get an actual resistance reading that shows how good that ground is.
So if you change the meter setting to read ohms (the funny upside down horseshoe?), touch the two leads together and make sure it is all good by getting a very low reading like under 10 ohms. That makes sure all the leads are in place and the small reading can come from the resistance of the leads themselves. Again, you are testing the test!

Once you knw the meter is set right, put one lead on the frame ground, etc and the other on the wire you think should be ground and get a reading. That reading should be pretty low but there is not firm answer what it will be as the ground wire may go along ways before being attached to ground and if you have the meter set to read really low resistance with one of the really low scales, it can show something like 25 ohms because the groundwire has that much resitance in it. Most of the time, we are not going to be looking at readings in between but more often it will be good or open and no reading.
That's where we each kind of work into using our meter in different ways. Some like to test the meterset up first and others go with not testing the test until they don't get what they expect! If you expect a ground and don't find it, then is a good time to make sure the test is right before going someplace to look for the problem. Sometimes the problem is just that we've knocked one of the meter lead clips off or failed to plug the lead into the meter!
Always good to learn to recheck things---even when we're sure we did it right! One of the bigger things to check is that the metalpoint you are using as ground is really connected to ground and that you are getting the probe really on the metal. Paint or rust will make somethings like a screwhead look like it is a good ground but not! So if one test doesn't look right, make sure the lead is actually making good contact!

And it was pointed out to me recently that I did not mention testing for voltage first before going into the resistance testing. This can be critical on some meters as using the resistance setting and getting on voltage can blow a fuse in some meters. Not a big deal usually but it does mess things up if you have to stop and replace the meter fuse!
That makes it important to ID any voltage before testing on the resistance scales. Stay off hot wires when on resistance scales!!

I will play some more with this, I believe I have done your Test #1 and it is showing a good ground, but I will try again and this time looking for exact same voltage from frame ground & the wire ground.

It is baffling? But one other thing that may different that I don't quite follow, is that when I use the charger I have option of setting at 2 amp, 10 amps and 50 amps. All three will make the motor turn.

Maybe something is going on with the Flojet that requires more than 12.5 vdc?

[deckape]

Try putting power to the hot wire and putting the ground to the chassie. That will test the ground.

[Morich]

The question of the amp setting on the charger is okay. It is just that the setting makes different amount of current available but the motor only draws the amount it needs to run. So if it needs 1.5 to run, it gets that amount from all three charger settings.

On our house circuits, we often run a single light bulb on a 15 amp circuit. The circtuit does have breakers that limit the current to 15 amp or near as that is set up to protect us from using more than the wires, etccan handle. More current like 30 amp is likely to make the smaller wires used in a 15 amp circuit get too hot. So the current is there but limited to 15 amps but the light bulb alone may only use a small portion of that amount.

I may have made it sound too difficult to check the supply for things like a motor. When I check something on an RV, I rarely care about which lead goes where red or black to ground as I am sure that nobody has reversed them. So if I have two wires and one is supposed to be battery and one groudn. I often just go with one meter lead on each asa qucik check. If I see the meter shows 12 volts or more, I know that both battery wire and ground wire are likely good because if either were NOT good/open, I would not get any reading.
But that is when we need to just be aware and not say, we are missing the battery. If we test like that and find no voltage reading, THEN we need to check WHICH we are missing by moving one lead to some place we know is ground like the frame and testing the wires for 12 volts battery.

And that is where we each are likely to develop habits of how we work that may be different than other people. A guy who always works on houses and in cities where there are codes that say how it is to be wired will often have different methods than a guy who works on equipment repair where things are often done in varied ways to better fit how it needs to works.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by deckape

Try putting power to the hot wire and putting the ground to the chassie. That will test the ground.

Thanks

The hot wire & ground wires are wires that I have run to the wet bay specifically for this pump. There is no nearby chassis ground that the black wire from the pump can reach too.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

The question of the amp setting on the charger is okay. It is just that the setting makes different amount of current available but the motor only draws the amount it needs to run. So if it needs 1.5 to run, it gets that amount from all three charger settings.

I agree with that because I know it to be true, but it does not explain why when I set my charger on something, regardless to what it is, when I set from 2, 10 or 50, it fires up and the leads will get got after a few seconds on 50 amps? Maybe I am reacting by the way the charger sounds?

On our house circuits, we often run a single light bulb on a 15 amp circuit. The circtuit does have breakers that limit the current to 15 amp or near as that is set up to protect us from using more than the wires, etccan handle. More current like 30 amp is likely to make the smaller wires used in a 15 amp circuit get too hot. So the current is there but limited to 15 amps but the light bulb alone may only use a small portion of that amount.

I may have made it sound too difficult to check the supply for things like a motor. When I check something on an RV, I rarely care about which lead goes where red or black to ground as I am sure that nobody has reversed them. So if I have two wires and one is supposed to be battery and one groudn. I often just go with one meter lead on each asa qucik check. If I see the meter shows 12 volts or more, I know that both battery wire and ground wire are likely good because if either were NOT good/open, I would not get any reading.

I wired this Flojet more than a year ago, I have used it 10 - 15 times no issues until now. I have 12 plus voltage at the connector. That is why I was questioning the juice. Think of a car, you put cables on & you have 12 volts, but it still may not start until you get enough cranking amps to turn motor over. I was thinking it may be something similar?


But that is when we need to just be aware and not say, we are missing the battery. If we test like that and find no voltage reading, THEN we need to check WHICH we are missing by moving one lead to some place we know is ground like the frame and testing the wires for 12 volts battery.

I have always had voltage

And that is where we each are likely to develop habits of how we work that may be different than other people. A guy who always works on houses and in cities where there are codes that say how it is to be wired will often have different methods than a guy who works on equipment repair where things are often done in varied ways to better fit how it needs to works.

What you have described for Test 1 and Test 2 is not too difficult. However I do not have any other assessible ground short the 1 ground wire coming into the wet bay. So I can't conduct the ohm test.


What new:
This morning, I connected the flojet pump direct to the battery and it works fine. So it is not just the charger where it works

It still does not work on my connector in wet bay.

I started up the generator and it started just fine. The positive that supplies the generator is the same that supplies the flojet. I even tried the flojet with genny running, but it made no difference.

Next steps:
I am still waiting on new sea dog connector so I can easily plug and unplug the switch from the flojet circuit for issues like this to ensure it is not a factor. Right now, I have cut the wires so power is going direct to motor no switch.

It is raining now but when dry, I trace my ground wire from bottom of genny (1st picture) to wet bay. The second picture just shows the positive post from genny I have used.

[Morich]

Okay, sounds like most things are as they should and there are times when we can get a 12 volt reading on a meter but not enough to start a motor. Somewhat odd but can happen.

But one of the more common things and easy to miss is something between where we test the voltage and the motor. Small things like the plug clicking together but the wires not actually making contact is one. It depends on what type of connectors but some have pins that can get loose and as we push the connectors together, the pin and wire slide back instead of metal sliding over metal to make a good connection. It looks and feels fine but the wires are not meeting and it can be inside the plastic where we can't see it!

This is a picture of a connector called a Molex that can get this problem pretty easy if it is slid in and out much or sometimes just bad luck!

When they are making these connectors, they crimp the wire into the back side of the metal pins and then push the pins into the plastic. On the way into the plastic the little metal ears or tabs bend in to pass a plastic ridge inside the connectors and then are supposed to pop back out to hold the pin and wire in place in the plastic shell. We are talking thin cheap metal and sometimes it works fine and other times not so fine after a while.

You can see that several things might happen. If we plug/unplug, the metal can get bent or broken or the plastic ridge inside may get worn or broken and when either of those happen, the round pin that is supposed to go in the round hole may just hit the edge and the pin and wire get pushed backwards instead of going in and making a good connection!

The thing that can drive us crazy is that the pin edge may wind up laying against the other edge, even if not inside and things work---until we hit the first bump and the wire back a tiny bit, so then we have some kind of intermitant problem and we unplug and check but when we plug it in again, do we get lucky or does it miss entirely?

When you get to something like that, it can helpto just go one wire at a time and force that wire into the connector on both side and see if it starts working or you may be able to wiggle and pull the wire a bit and see if it moves around in the connector more than the other wires do.

Gremlins are hard to catch!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Okay, sounds like most things are as they should and there are times when we can get a 12 volt reading on a meter but not enough to start a motor. Somewhat odd but can happen.

But one of the more common things and easy to miss is something between where we test the voltage and the motor. Small things like the plug clicking together but the wires not actually making contact is one. It depends on what type of connectors but some have pins that can get loose and as we push the connectors together, the pin and wire slide back instead of metal sliding over metal to make a good connection. It looks and feels fine but the wires are not meeting and it can be inside the plastic where we can't see it!

This is a picture of a connector called a Molex that can get this problem pretty easy if it is slid in and out much or sometimes just bad luck!

When they are making these connectors, they crimp the wire into the back side of the metal pins and then push the pins into the plastic. On the way into the plastic the little metal ears or tabs bend in to pass a plastic ridge inside the connectors and then are supposed to pop back out to hold the pin and wire in place in the plastic shell. We are talking thin cheap metal and sometimes it works fine and other times not so fine after a while.

You can see that several things might happen. If we plug/unplug, the metal can get bent or broken or the plastic ridge inside may get worn or broken and when either of those happen, the round pin that is supposed to go in the round hole may just hit the edge and the pin and wire get pushed backwards instead of going in and making a good connection!

The thing that can drive us crazy is that the pin edge may wind up laying against the other edge, even if not inside and things work---until we hit the first bump and the wire back a tiny bit, so then we have some kind of intermitant problem and we unplug and check but when we plug it in again, do we get lucky or does it miss entirely?

When you get to something like that, it can helpto just go one wire at a time and force that wire into the connector on both side and see if it starts working or you may be able to wiggle and pull the wire a bit and see if it moves around in the connector more than the other wires do.

Gremlins are hard to catch!

This is the kind of connector I had?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Y89TDM...roduct_details

But I cut it off to to remove the switch. I have new connector on order that will allow me to easily disconnect the switch from the unit, which is different the other connector ( same type ) that allows me to disconnect the unit from the power supply.

Previously I assumed the pump was dead. I am just gonna have to start at the beginning to see where my ability to get successful voltage and ground stops.

I am just glad the pump appears to be work. Could be an issue with the type of wire I chose? I only gave myself a 6 month warranty on my DIY work, no telling how much I will have to charge myself to fix this

[BobC]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

I only gave myself a 6 month warranty on my DIY work, no telling how much I will have to charge myself to fix this

I usually charge myself a new tool to get the job done. In this case I recommend a new multimeter, preferably one with a clamp-on DC amp probe. They're very useful.

I don't want to think about what my garage full of tools says about the quality of my work.