Can I Play Battery Roulette?

RickO · 08-22-2011, 06:25 PM

23 months ago, I was traveling and had to replace my house batteries. WalMart was the most convenient option at the time and I bought 3 of their EverStart Maxx dual purpose batteries. They came with an 18 month free replacement but only recently really went south so it's time again. I think I'll get 50% credit inside of two years and will probably use that to get the group 27 deep cycle marine batteries... but to get three of them I'm going to have to run all over town and it's going to take a half day or more.

The problem is that I need to remove all three house batteries to take them in for replacement and on my rig removing the house batteries shuts down virtually everything in the coach that needs 12v to operate their control boards, etc. This includes the fridge and AC.

So, to avoid having to leave DW and the pups in a hot, dark coach I'd like to remove the three coach batteries and install one of my two starting batteries in place of the three coach batteries while I do the running around.

My question is... can I do this without turning my starting battery to toast?

I have the (in)famous Dimensions inverter/charger in my 2007 Itasca Ellipse. I am plugged in to 50 amp shore power. It seems to me that this shouldn't be an issue while I'm still connected to shore power. The starting battery should supply the limited amount of 12v current the coach requires and when/if the charger kicks in it won't cook the single battery... but I wanted to ask the experts before I began sending smoke signals that smell like dirty socks.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Rick

wa8yxm · 08-22-2011, 07:21 PM

Likely.. In fact try this.

Go to not wall mart but Sam's club or Costco (if you have a membership) and get a "Jump start" battery, biggest they have (1,000 amps if possible) Note this is only a small battery, perhaps 25 amp hours)

Now, Drive to wall mart.

IF you have a spot you can do it (And you do, the disconnect solenoid of no where else) hook up the jump start battery.. Quickly disconnect and haul the old batteries into the store for exchnge.. Minimize power use while doing it (no lights, No furnace, just Fridge no water heater even, No A/C, no.. anything you cn possibly turn off.. Leave JUST the fridge on)

You will still have power in the small battery when you re-connect, still in the wally world lot.

NEXT> What converter do you have, those batteries should have lasted years longer.

RickO · 08-22-2011, 07:27 PM

Thanks. My inverter/charger is a Dimensions WIN-12X20B3RT. One of my objectives is to not have to break camp to drive the coach to WalMart.

Thanks again.

Rick

Norm4015 · 08-22-2011, 07:48 PM

Buy the new batteries and bring them back to the motorhome. Get your tools and cleaning supplies ready and make a picture / drawing of the cables and put a number on every cable.

Tell your wife and dogs you're shutting her down and then replace the batteries. But don't do it so quick you make a mistake. Turn everything back on and make sure it works, then take the old batteries back and get your core refund.

jfran304 · 08-22-2011, 07:49 PM

Have you checked with the store to see if you can purchase the new batteries and then after you replace the old batteries return them to the store for a credit?

Jon

mfire1339 · 08-22-2011, 07:50 PM

If you have an aux. start switch I would put a jumper wire from one side to the other of the solenoid.

Dirtbuster · 08-22-2011, 07:56 PM

You could try using a good pair of jumper cables to connect your coach batteries, to your house battery power & ground. The other option is to purchase the batteries, & pay the core charge. After installing the new batteries, take the core's back for credit!

Good luck & take pics before you start!

RickO · 08-22-2011, 08:09 PM

Thanks all. I think jumpering the boost solenoid might be the clearest path here. WalMart insists that I bring the batteries in to them for testing before they will even tell me what my pro-rated credit will be.

I don't want to buy the batteries first and then rely on a credit on the back end even if WM will allow it... which I don't think they will. My bottom line is that if I don't get a big (~50%) pro-rated credit on the new batteries... I'll buy them someplace else and just use mine for core exchanges. WalMart doesn't seem to have a good match for me in deep cycles... they no longer have much in the way of "dual purpose" batteries which is what the current dead ones are. They do have a group 27 marine deep cycle and I'll give them a try if I get them cheaply enough. Otherwise I'll probably head to Auto Zone or Costco.

Thanks for the tips on how to change out the batteries. I've actually changed the batteries a couple of times and take them out often for maintenance so I know your warnings are right on the mark. I had to live without an inverter all the way from Arizona to Minnesota a few months ago... all because a ground wire hadn't been reconnected to the battery.

Rick

Dirtbuster · 08-22-2011, 08:24 PM

I wonder if Sam's Club would allow an exchange for credit. They would most likely have what you need!

BryanL · 08-22-2011, 09:54 PM

The big question is why your batteries are so short lived. If properly cared for and used, they should last at least 4 years.

Battery brand or label doesn't really make that much difference.

The reason why Walmart seeks to test for warranty is because they get a lot of returns from folks whose problems are other than battery or from people who abuse their batteries.

If you want your batteries to last longer, take a look at how you use, maintain, and charge them. That will get to the underlying problem, I think.

Mr_D · 08-22-2011, 10:14 PM

A "marine" battery is not a deep cycle one and not designed for the way an RV'er uses them. That's probably the reason for the short life.
We have Interstate U-2200's which are 6V deep cycle. They are over 9 years old now and still doing the job for us. And I have drawn them down to 11.00 or even 10.75 volts more than just a few times.

BryanL · 08-23-2011, 09:05 AM

re: "A "marine" battery is not a deep cycle one and not designed for the way an RV'er uses them." -- if you find any actual, objective, and pertinent measure that distinguishes between these batteries, please let me know. From all I have seen, they are strictly marketing terms and the only place you'll see any impact is in the warranty terms.

re: "They are over 9 years old now and still doing the job for us." -- expected life for wet cell lead acid batteries is 4 - 7 years (see the NAWS FAQ) and it is not dependent upon voltage. The biggest problem with these extended life anecdotes is that you have no measure for just when to call it when it comes to the time to replace.

How long your batteries will last depends, first and foremost, on how you use, maintain, and manage them. Not on the case labels or voltage or brand.

At 9 years old, the batteries are probably down to 60% or less of original available energy capacity. What with they typical use profile for most RVers and the necessary reserve and the gradual nature of the aging, such a diminishing of capacity is not usually very noticeable - like the starting battery that only shows its age when you try to start the morning after the first really cold snap of winter.

So watch out for the myths and be careful of anecdotes. Look for measurements someone will put their money behind like cost, specification, and warranty and that are really applicable to providing some benefit for what you want to do.

RickO · 08-23-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanL

The big question is why your batteries are so short lived. If properly cared for and used, they should last at least 4 years.

Battery brand or label doesn't really make that much difference.

The reason why WalMart seeks to test for warranty is because they get a lot of returns from folks whose problems are other than battery or from people who abuse their batteries.

If you want your batteries to last longer, take a look at how you use, maintain, and charge them. That will get to the underlying problem, I think.

I believe I'm on the 4th set of house batteries in just over five years. The originals were toast when I bought it and replaced under coach warranty. Only 9 months later the second set were toast and also replaced under coach warranty but this time my dealer called Dimensions and was told that we needed to restrict the AC the charger was allowed to draw from the 25 amp factory setting down to 5 amps!

At that point the batteries quit getting fried but began failing to hold a charge after 1.5 years or so. They were replaced with the current set I'm replacing almost 2 years ago. I have reset the Dimensions charger to 15 amps.

We never boon dock. I check water levels in the batteries every few months and they hardly ever need water added. Once per year I will remove and clean all cables and connections.

I have come to believe that the Dimensions charger is at the root of my battery life problem... probably compounded by the use of "cheap" batteries. The current set being replaced are supposed to be "dual purpose" rather than deep cycle batteries and my results don't inspire confidence.

Rick

Dr4Film · 08-23-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickO

I believe I'm on the 4th set of house batteries in just over five years. The originals were toast when I bought it and replaced under coach warranty. Only 9 months later the second set were toast and also replaced under coach warranty but this time my dealer called Dimensions and was told that we needed to restrict the AC the charger was allowed to draw from the 25 amp factory setting down to 5 amps!

At that point the batteries quit getting fried but began failing to hold a charge after 1.5 years or so. They were replaced with the current set I'm replacing almost 2 years ago. I have reset the Dimensions charger to 15 amps.

We never boon dock. I check water levels in the batteries every few months and they hardly ever need water added. Once per year I will remove and clean all cables and connections.

I have come to believe that the Dimensions charger is at the root of my battery life problem... probably compounded by the use of "cheap" batteries. The current set being replaced are supposed to be "dual purpose" rather than deep cycle batteries and my results don't inspire confidence.

Rick

Rick,

You have something serious going on as a set of coach batteries should last you 5-6 years or usually more depending on care and whether you use a PowerPulse on the battery bank to keep them from sulfating.

When I last removed all batteries, the set of four coach batteries and the 8D chassis battery, to clean up the trays & repaint, the coach never lost 12 volt or 120 volt power due to the converter supplying 12 volt power and I was always hooked to shore power at the time. Your inverter may operate differently. Mine is the Trace/Xantrex 2000 Watt MSW Inverter.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.

BryanL · 08-23-2011, 11:56 AM

re: "The current set being replaced are supposed to be "dual purpose" rather than deep cycle batteries and my results don't inspire confidence"

Don't let one or two samples define your conclusions when it comes to batteries. Batteries are a mature design subject to mature manufacturing technologies that are commodity items. The differences tend to be small compared to inherent variability encountered during use. The trade-offs are in cost, capacity, and 'ruggedness' and you can see this (and how little the differences really are) by looking at Manufacturer's line cards and spec sheets.

As for the converter, there are some things to look for:

1) do you get about 14.4v from the converter when plugged in after the batteries have been used a bit?

2) does this voltage drop to about 13.6v after an hour or a few (depending upon how discharged the batteries were).

3) when you haven't used your batteries for more than a couple of days, does the converter voltage drop a bit more, say to 13.2v?

4) does the converter implement a sulfation inhibiting technique like the power bump that the ChargeWizard, WFCO, and some other converters do, or a pulse charge method like the BatteryMINDer(tm) products do?

If your batteries need a lot of attention, like needing water frequently, your converter, charger, maintainer isn't doing its job.

Do keep your batteries out of the heat. Don't run down to 12.0v (12v system) as measured after a half hour of no significant charging or discharging for at least a half hour. Recharge promptly so you don't leave your batteries sitting around partially charged more than needed (especially in the heat!). Keep them on a proper maintenance system when you are not using them.

UFO Pilot · 08-23-2011, 12:27 PM

Replacing my converter to a 3 stage Intellipower 9260 solved my house battery problems.

RickO · 08-23-2011, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr4Film

When I last removed all batteries, the set of four coach batteries and the 8D chassis battery, to clean up the trays & repaint, the coach never lost 12 volt or 120 volt power due to the converter supplying 12 volt power and I was always hooked to shore power at the time. Your inverter may operate differently. Mine is the Trace/Xantrex 2000 Watt MSW Inverter.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.

My Dimensions unit does operate differently. I learned that when replacing the batteries two years ago. I cut 12v power via the cut off switch and the Air Cond and fridge went dark. I called Winnie and confirmed with them that this was normal. Lots of reference to "converters" providing 12v power but I don't believe I have a converter... just a charger instead that allows the house batteries to provide the coach with 12v power and charges them as required so the charger continues to cycle as needed.

It is a 3 stage charger and I can see it go to 14.4v every 10th cycle I believe it is. On a standard charge it does hit 13.6v. I'm pretty sure it has no special pulse features.

Thanks all.

Rick

dc8cappie · 08-23-2011, 05:24 PM

Here is a section of page 4 of the Dimension charger/inverter. Note the B3 battery charger section.

MODEL NUMBER 12X16 12X20 12X25 12X30 12X36

Output Power

(Watts Cont.) 1,600 2,000 2,500 3,000 3,600

Output Current

(Amps AC) Up to 13 Up to 17 Up to 21 Up to 25 Up to 30

Peak Output

(Amps AC) 55 70 80 90 90

Output Rating:

(hp) 1/3 ½ ¾ 1 1½

Input Current

(Amps DC) Up to 160 Up to 200 Up to 250 Up to 300 Up to 360

Weight

(lbs.) 40 44 49 53 58

Dimensions

LxWxH (Inches) 15¾ x 11½ x 7¾

BATTERY CHARGER “B3”

(Included)

3 step charger with automatic conditioning; Temperature compensated

output voltage; selectable between wet and sealed lead acid batteries;
selectable between small and large battery banks
Output Current

(Amps DC) 75 100 130 140 140

Input Current

(Amps AC) Up to 16 Up to 21 Up to 26 Up to 28 Up to 28

TRANSFER RELAY “T” or “T1”

(Included)

Fail-safe shore power Transfer Relay

Current Rating

(Amps AC) 30 with the “T” option and 50 with the “T1” option
Transfer Time (milliseconds) Less than 16 typical

Below is a copy of section 7.1. Did you check to insure the correct type and capacity is selected on the charger.

7.1.1 Setting the Battery Size and Type:

The battery selector switch located at

the right side of the chassis must be set according to the type and size of the battery

bank the SPS is connected to as shown in table II below.

TABLE II: BATTERY SELECTOR SWITCH POSITION

BATTERY BANK SIZE DEEP CYCLE BATTERY TYPE
(Amp-Hour) \ SEALED LEAD ACID \ WET LEAD ACID
More than 400 \ A \ C
Less than 400 \ B \ D
TABLE III: BATTERY CHARGER VOLTAGES
BATTERY WET CELL BATTERIES SEALED BATERIES
TEMPERATURE
°F °C
ACCEPT
(Volts)
FLOAT
(Volts)
CONDITIONING
(Volts)
ACCEPT
(Volts)
FLOAT
(Volts)
CONDITIONING
(Volts)
78 25 14.6 13.2 14.9 to 15 max. 14.2 13.2 14.4 to 15 max.
TABLE IV: BATTERY CHARGER TIME PERIODS
WET CELL TYPE BATTERIES SEALED TYPE BATTERIES
BATTERY BANK SIZE
(Amp-Hour) BULK
(max.)
ACCEPT
(max.)
CONDITIONING
(max.)
BULK
(max.)
ACCEPT
(max.)
CONDITIONING
(max.)
Less than 400 6-hrs. 2-hrs. 3-hrs. 6-hrs. 2-hrs. 3-hrs.
Greater than 400 8-hrs. 3-hrs. 6-hrs. 8-hrs. 3-hrs. 4-hrs.

If the bulk mode times-out the charging process will go to the float mode,

bypassing the acceptance mode.

I'm not trying to be smart but I did not see these questions asked so I did.

RickO · 08-23-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc8cappie

BATTERY CHARGER “B3”

(Included)

3 step charger with automatic conditioning; Temperature compensated

output voltage; selectable between wet and sealed lead acid batteries;

selectable between small and large battery banks

Below is a copy of section 7.1. Did you check to insure the correct type and capacity is selected on the charger.

7.1.1 Setting the Battery Size and Type:

The battery selector switch located at

the right side of the chassis must be set according to the type and size of the battery

bank the SPS is connected to as shown in table II below.

TABLE II: BATTERY SELECTOR SWITCH POSITION

BATTERY BANK SIZE DEEP CYCLE BATTERY TYPE

(Amp-Hour) \ SEALED LEAD ACID \ WET LEAD ACID
More than 400 \ A \ C
Less than 400 \ B \ D
TABLE III: BATTERY CHARGER VOLTAGES
BATTERY WET CELL BATTERIES SEALED BATERIES
TEMPERATURE
°F °C
ACCEPT
(Volts)
FLOAT
(Volts)
CONDITIONING
(Volts)
ACCEPT
(Volts)
FLOAT
(Volts)
CONDITIONING
(Volts)
78 25 14.6 13.2 14.9 to 15 max. 14.2 13.2 14.4 to 15 max.
TABLE IV: BATTERY CHARGER TIME PERIODS
WET CELL TYPE BATTERIES SEALED TYPE BATTERIES
BATTERY BANK SIZE
(Amp-Hour) BULK
(max.)
ACCEPT
(max.)
CONDITIONING
(max.)
BULK
(max.)
ACCEPT
(max.)
CONDITIONING
(max.)
Less than 400 6-hrs. 2-hrs. 3-hrs. 6-hrs. 2-hrs. 3-hrs.
Greater than 400 8-hrs. 3-hrs. 6-hrs. 8-hrs. 3-hrs. 4-hrs.

I'm not trying to be smart but I did not see these questions asked so I did.

Thanks, and a good thought but unless it has somehow changed on it's own over the past two years it is still set properly. On mine it's located in the electrical bay under the same cover as the Trick L Charger.

Just returned with three new deep cycle 36 month batteries from Costco. Took the old ones to Wally World and there's no wty credit on a 24 month battery during it's 24th month. Now I get to go install them.

For closure on the original question:

I ended up going with the suggestion to use jumper cables and it's worked great. I shut down the coach. Removed the 3 bad batteries. Used two bolts/nuts to secure the two hot cables and three ground cables to each other... grouped the hots to each other and the grounds to each other. Then bungee'd them to the tray in a manner so they would touch anything they shouldn't. Then turned off the chassis battery cut off switch to hopefully isolate any chassis electronics. Used heavy jumper cables to connect the chassis batteries to the house battery cables and all has been well with AC and frige for the past few hours.

Thanks all for your insights and help.

rick

two-niner · 08-25-2011, 08:50 AM

Like you I did the seems like an annual event of changing out the Series 31, 12vdc that came with the coach (08 Tour).

Somewhere on this forum is a photo of the conversion to four (4) 6vdc. Did it and the batteries have been most excellent for three years. Factory said no need to change any other settings.

You may want to give thought to this next year when those dagnabit 12 volters give out. As I recall the batteries that came with the coach was deep cycle/marine.

Kerry