Mixing battery AH ratings

[AJMike]

This is one of those "what if" or "why not" kinds of questions.

Lithionics makes a 12 volt 315AH battery for general sale. The Winnebago Ekko comes with a Lithionics 12 volt 320AH battery and this battery is not available from Lithionics directly, but must be purchased directly from Winnebago. I would think that Winnebago did this to try to make sure that people would bought any additional batteries from them and not from Lithionics since they are not truly identical.

So, OK. I know that if you mix parallel batteries with different voltages you end up with the lower of the two voltages, but what if someone wanted to mix the 2 12 volt batteries, one with the 315AH rating and the other with the 320AH rating? Would that be a problem? If so, why? And what problem?

They are both 12 volt batteries, and their rating is only 5AH different. Is mixing them a reasonable choice? Or would it cause all kinds of problems? Don't know that I would want to do this, but it would be helpful to know if it were practical and, if not, why not.

[Winterbagoal]

My guess would be that the power consumption exit point (where the energy exits the paralleled batteries) would look like one big power source/battery, so I'm not sure if it matters about different capacities connected in parallel. Nor do I know if cell equalization is affected outside of each lithium battery in parallel.
But, I'm a simple man. I'll enjoy reading the other replies. Early on a Monday morning....

[DavidM]

I suspect that there is no physical or electrical difference between the Winnebago 320 Ah and the Lithionics 315 Ah battery, just a small tweak in ratings to make them seem different.

So are you thinking about buying the Winnebago EKKO with the 320 Ah package and adding on your own Lithionics 315 Ah battery?

To answer your question, they should work fine wired together in parallel. As long as they are the same LiFePO4 chemistry even mixing manufacturers should be ok. Not recommended but I don't see why not.

David

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by DavidM

So are you thinking about buying the Winnebago EKKO with the 320 Ah package and adding on your own Lithionics 315 Ah battery?

Thinking about it, but there are some serious issues in my view.

First, I don't like the cartridge toilet with its 5 gallon limit and, second, I don't like the "now you see it, now you don't" shower. The rest of the RV has pretty good specs - highly insulated (which would help in the heat as well as the cold), 320AH of battery, 455 watts of solar, a dedicated alternator for charging the house batteries, twin beds (we are getting a bit old to be crawling around the bed in our Fuse), the new Ford Transit chassis, dual side cameras, a 2000 watt inverter and other stuff, but the downsides are not small.

Out of curiosity I did contact Lithionics about adding the 315AH battery to the Ekko, but I did not expect that it was a very common question. Apparently I was completely wrong as here is the response I got from Lithionics a couple of minutes ago.

In summary it seems to say "Don't do that!", although it does not really answer the question as to whether or not someone could do it. The 320AH battery seems to come with both quick connect wiring and special firmware but it seemed clear to me that Lithionics failed to answer my basic question about whether or not it would work.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Thinking about it, but there are some serious issues in my view.

First, I don't like the cartridge toilet with its 5 gallon limit and, second, I don't like the "now you see it, now you don't" shower. The rest of the RV has pretty good specs - highly insulated (which would help in the heat as well as the cold), 320AH of battery, 455 watts of solar, a dedicated alternator for charging the house batteries, twin beds (we are getting a bit old to be crawling around the bed in our Fuse), the new Ford Transit chassis, dual side cameras, a 2000 watt inverter and other stuff, but the downsides are not small.

Out of curiosity I did contact Lithionics about adding the 315AH battery to the Ekko, but I did not expect that it was a very common question. Apparently I was completely wrong as here is the response I got from Lithionics a couple of minutes ago.

In summary it seems to say "Don't do that!", although it does not really answer the question as to whether or not someone could do it. The 320AH battery seems to come with both quick connect wiring and special firmware but it seemed clear to me that Lithionics failed to answer my basic question about whether or not it would work.

If the 315Ah model isn't "UL listed" how can they sell it?
Don't these things require some sort of regulatory testing and approval before they hit the retailers?
You're right, they're not really telling you why, except that it doesn't have a UL sticker on it.

[creativepart]

Mike, I read that as "we have a deal with Winnebago and it makes us say that you can only use Winnebago dealer supplied and installed batteries."

I saw someone mention on another forum that Lichtsinn will install 2-additional Lithionics batteries for 980 amp hours - but you must have the generator delete option. Also, they said they can install a 2nd Lithionics battery and you can keep the generator. I was under the impression that WBGO said the 2nd battery was only available without the generator.

There is so much buzz about the Ekko - WBGO is under pressure to get this right, and to be able to meet demand.

I think the cassette toilet is the largest negative they have going for them on this model. It's really common everywhere in the world except North America. Perhaps, it's a perception problem for us? I know folks that have rented in the EU and AU and said it was not a big deal to have a cassette toilet.

[Morich]

I would say this is more of a marketing problem than functional problem as batteries are not exact duplicates, even when new. Materials vary and a 5 AH difference is very likely to happen after a few months use, anyway.
Thinking of the things that change how a battery operates, says they will very. In your case, heat may change one battery sooner than another? So the worry about 5 AH difference is not a factor to me.

I might look at it from a warranty standpoint, though. If they say don't and something does go wrong and you get an early failure, it would give them a ready way to decline?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Mike, I read that as "we have a deal with Winnebago and it makes us say that you can only use Winnebago dealer supplied and installed batteries."

Yes. I believe that is the subtext here.

Originally Posted by creativepart

I saw someone mention on another forum that Lichtsinn will install 2-additional Lithionics batteries for 980 amp hours - but you must have the generator delete option. Also, they said they can install a 2nd Lithionics battery and you can keep the generator. I was under the impression that WBGO said the 2nd battery was only available without the generator.

As I understand it, if you order from WBO you have to delete the generator if you want a second battery, but Lichtsinn told me that there is sufficient space in the battery compartment for 2 of the 320AH batteries and they would add a second one without removing the generator. I assume that if a dealer does that there would not be a warranty issue, but that is just my assumption.

Originally Posted by creativepart

I think the cassette toilet is the largest negative they have going for them on this model. It's really common everywhere in the world except North America. Perhaps, it's a perception problem for us? I know folks that have rented in the EU and AU and said it was not a big deal to have a cassette toilet.

For me that is the biggest problem. If we fill up a 43 gallon black water tank in 6 days that is 7 gallons a day in normal use. Yes, the sink in the bathroom in our Fuse also drains into the black tank, but if I assume that half of the liquid in the black tank comes from the sink I still have to assume that we use 3.5 gallons a day of black tank capacity, so a 5 gallon cartridge is 1 1/2 days usage and I would be swapping that think out every other day. How do I do that when boondocking?

I suppose I could get a second "cartridge", but that just seems like too much trouble - swapping out every other day and then lugging 2 of these things to a dump station somewhere.

As for my wife, she wants the separate shower or, as she refers to it, her storage shed, so while I am interested in seeing this I don't expect to buy one. Our local dealer says they should arrive at the end of this month or early in April. I had thought seriously about the 24C as it solved both of these issues, but it is gone. Maybe next year.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Morich

I might look at it from a warranty standpoint, though. If they say don't and something does go wrong and you get an early failure, it would give them a ready way to decline?

Yes, and that is enough to keep me from doing this kind of thing during the warranty period, but after that it would not be such a problem. Basically I think there is no real issue here other than the way WBO has designed the wiring. Here is something else I got from Lithionics, and this is for the 320AH battery. I don't know if the 315AH has the same harness connection, but I assume if it does not it could still be fabricated.

I just assume WBO wants to keep all of this proprietary for the money in batteries. I have not asked how much the 320AH battery will cost, but I assume it will be significantly more expensive than the Lithionics 315AH battery. I will ask that when I finally get to see the Ekko 22A.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Yes. I believe that is the subtext here.



As I understand it, if you order from WBO you have to delete the generator if you want a second battery, but Lichtsinn told me that there is sufficient space in the battery compartment for 2 of the 320AH batteries and they would add a second one without removing the generator. I assume that if a dealer does that there would not be a warranty issue, but that is just my assumption.



For me that is the biggest problem. If we fill up a 43 gallon black water tank in 6 days that is 7 gallons a day in normal use. Yes, the sink in the bathroom in our Fuse also drains into the black tank, but if I assume that half of the liquid in the black tank comes from the sink I still have to assume that we use 3.5 gallons a day of black tank capacity, so a 5 gallon cartridge is 1 1/2 days usage and I would be swapping that think out every other day. How do I do that when boondocking?

I suppose I could get a second "cartridge", but that just seems like too much trouble - swapping out every other day and then lugging 2 of these things to a dump station somewhere.

As for my wife, she wants the separate shower or, as she refers to it, her storage shed, so while I am interested in seeing this I don't expect to buy one. Our local dealer says they should arrive at the end of this month or early in April. I had thought seriously about the 24C as it solved both of these issues, but it is gone. Maybe next year.

Agreed about the 24C having been deleted, as the better option. It looked like it could be a somewhat more rugged, flexible, and useful sized option. I would have considered that one, too. I wonder if the new Ford chassis was the problem, perhaps it wasn't robust enough for the intended use? Works in the smaller model, but not in the larger one. Is it a dual rear wheel chassis? Maybe the projected weight of the larger coach on the chassis was the problem. Can't design/build something that exceeds Ford's numbers.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Is it a dual rear wheel chassis? Maybe the projected weight of the larger coach on the chassis was the problem. Can't design/build something that exceeds Ford's numbers.

That is exactly what I was told when I asked. The internet sales guy, who has a ton of orders for the Ekko, both 22A and 24C, told me that he called the factory and was told that the final weight of the 24C was over what was expected and that the vehicle could not be certified in all 50 states. I really don't know if that means it could be certified in some, but not all, or if it means it could not be certified in any and they are just being careful in what they say.

Hard to see how they fix that issue without some major changes including, perhaps, using the MB chassis as I think that can support more weight. Personally I would prefer the Ford chassis as I really don't want to have to worry if I can not find B5 in some area I am driving through.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Is it a dual rear wheel chassis?

Sorry I missed that. Yes, it is a dual rear wheel chassis.

[Winterbagoal]

I think if you run enough B5+ diesel through any engine, whether it's capable of using it or not, the results may be unpredictable.
I've never had a problem with it, and the caveat is with regard to unburned bio-diesel fuel getting mixed into the oil pan sump, causing an over filled problem. MB has a push button oil check on the instrument cluster that I use regularly, if I have doubts about the percentage of soy in the diesel. I've had to use it a few times, with no apparent ill effects.
I could live with the EKKO on a Sprinter, but they're in the same boat as Ford, the single rear wheel requirement to accomodate their 4X4/AWD configuration, would probably reduce their load capapcity, just like the Transit, which I believe is only single rear wheel for the AWD version. I just went to Ford.com and looked around. The EKKO was supposed to be an off grid/off road motorhome, and they are limited/restricted by the weight capacity of the AWD chassis, in either case.
I guess I'll be keeping my Navion a while longer.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

I've never had a problem with it, and the caveat is with regard to unburned bio-diesel fuel getting mixed into the oil pan sump, causing an over filled problem. MB has a push button oil check on the instrument cluster that I use regularly, if I have doubts about the percentage of soy in the diesel. I've had to use it a few times, with no apparent ill effects.

And what do you do if you do have too much unburned fuel in the oil? Take it in for a new oil change? I assume that could get expensive. Or is there some other solution?

I have heard that this is a serious issue with the MB diesel, but I don't really know. I believe that about a year ago I read about someone who was turned down for warranty work for his MB diesel because he had used too much B20, but when I read stuff like that I never know how much is true and how much is just another urban legend.

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

I could live with the EKKO on a Sprinter, but they're in the same boat as Ford, the single rear wheel requirement to accomodate their 4X4/AWD configuration, would probably reduce their load capapcity, just like the Transit, which I believe is only single rear wheel for the AWD version.

My Fuse is on a dually and I did ask about the Ford chassis for the Ekko. I was told that it was also a dually, but I have not seen one so I do not really know. Presumably this question will be answered when (and if) the local dealership that handles Winnebago products gets one of them in and I can go and take a look. I do prefer the stability of the dually when I am on the interstate and some big truck thunders past me doing 80 mph.

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

I guess I'll be keeping my Navion a while longer.

They are hard to find around here. I mentioned to DW that the Navion/Views had a twin bed model and were nice RVs, but we had not seen one for a long time. I mentioned to the sales guy here that we would be interested in seeing one of those but they just don't seem to be coming out of the factory in any large numbers - perhaps another example of how the Amazon truck order has impacted RV production on the MB chassis.

The dealership here is very large with 11 locations across the US, but a search for a Navion turned up only one, and that one in Florida, and a 4000 mile round trip seemed like a bit too much just to look.

[Wyatt]

Regarding the batteries, Battle Born doesn’t even want you to mix their own batteries that may be older with newer ones due to charging profile issues (balancing). You may have that issue with different amp hour batteries as well. I know when I spoke with a dealer for Lifecycle batteries they said I could NOT mix different ah batts.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

And what do you do if you do have too much unburned fuel in the oil? Take it in for a new oil change? I assume that could get expensive. Or is there some other solution?

I have heard that this is a serious issue with the MB diesel, but I don't really know. I believe that about a year ago I read about someone who was turned down for warranty work for his MB diesel because he had used too much B20, but when I read stuff like that I never know how much is true and how much is just another urban legend.

I'll deal with it when it happens. Personally, I've never read about anyone actually having this problem on any of the 3 or 4 forums I frequent, and I tend not to worry about it too much. I check the pump, but really have no recourse, if I need fuel, I need fuel.
A temporary fix is to siphon some oil out of the pan with a mechanical siphon through the add oil pipe. I think you can get them at most automotive shops, like Pep Boys, O'Reily's, NAPA, etc. Or, I could let it cool down, and crawl underneath and pull the drain plug, let a litre or so out, then check the level to see if it's OK. I always carry a couple of spare litres of engine oil. The siphon is probably easier and less messy.

Originally Posted by AJMike

My Fuse is on a dually and I did ask about the Ford chassis for the Ekko. I was told that it was also a dually, but I have not seen one so I do not really know. Presumably this question will be answered when (and if) the local dealership that handles Winnebago products gets one of them in and I can go and take a look. I do prefer the stability of the dually when I am on the interstate and some big truck thunders past me doing 80 mph.

I understand that the Transit (350) is now made on a dually, but I'm pretty sure the AWD version is 4 down only, not 6. That's why the chassis couldn't support the weight of the 24' long coach. And why WGO deleted it, I guess. Not feasible?
UPDATE 1: I just found a video and the EKKO is on a dually chassis, but it's a Fit RV demo and might be a prototype 24C, I'm not sure. If it is on an AWD dually, makes me wonder why they killed it? Watched a second vid by them, and it was a 22A, and it was also a prototype. However, it lookks like a dually, and it's supposed to be AWD, so I defer to your original supposition. My bad?
UPDATE 2: I just did a build/upfit on Ford.ca website, and the cab chassis, w/11,000lb GVWR, AWD, 3.5L Eco-Boost V6, and most of the upgrade/upfit options available, and it priced out at C$60,000 before tax and freight. With tax, C$68,000. No wonder these things are so expensive. The 11,000lb GVWR is only 30lbs less than the Sprinter 3500 cab chassis, so I'm still puzzled about what killed the project.

Originally Posted by AJMike

They are hard to find around here. I mentioned to DW that the Navion/Views had a twin bed model and were nice RVs, but we had not seen one for a long time. I mentioned to the sales guy here that we would be interested in seeing one of those but they just don't seem to be coming out of the factory in any large numbers - perhaps another example of how the Amazon truck order has impacted RV production on the MB chassis.

The dealership here is very large with 11 locations across the US, but a search for a Navion turned up only one, and that one in Florida, and a 4000 mile round trip seemed like a bit too much just to look.

Navion or View, they're nice coaches. The chassis has been flawless so far, with only the power steering hose recall outstanding for me. Still waiting for them to officially notify me. Mine isn't in the danger zone, yet. It's a simple fix if it lets go, so I'm not worried. I will say, I hate the EU horn, it sounds like the meep meep noise the Road Runner used to make in the cartoons. Very lame.
We have the split twins 24V model with the separate aft sleeping and forward living area, and we like the layout. The galley and bath are midships, more or less, and provide the division between the two areas. It's got a forward driver's side slide which really opens up the living area, but we rarely use it unless we're parked for a few days. I don't trust/like them, but it came with the coach, so there you go.
If I'm ever out that way again, big if, under current border closure nonsense, I'll drop by and cruise around AJ, and if you see a 2018 Navion in Sandstone full body paint, with Ontario plates, pulling a Wrangler Sahara 4 dr, feel free to stroll on over and say hello.

[Wyatt]

Is it just me, or did this thread jump its own shark?

[Winterbagoal]

"Internet forums are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get" Anon.

[MadMaxWinny]

Mixing different capacity batteries, as long as they are approximately the same age and exactly the same chemistry will not cause an appreciable reduction of battery life. This is done all of the time on boats with space restrictions. There is a greater risk of "stress" involved when you make the final +/- connections from a single battery in the group (pick them up from the first and last connected battery).

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by MadMaxWinny

Mixing different capacity batteries, as long as they are approximately the same age and exactly the same chemistry will not cause an appreciable reduction of battery life. This is done all of the time on boats with space restrictions. There is a greater risk of "stress" involved when you make the final +/- connections from a single battery in the group (pick them up from the first and last connected battery).

I keep hearing and reading about not mixing different age batteries...
https://youtu.be/EQ1YfXxI6a4