2002 Winnie Journey 36LD shore power electrical issues

medarwin · 10-29-2021, 01:28 PM

This is a 50 AMP coach, both shore power and genset. I have recently on 3 occasions had a need to neck down to 20 amps, while parked at friends without a 30amp hookup, much less 50.

The only thing that will operate on AC is the fridge, which shows a 4 amp draw. The converter/charger (Freedom)will not charge the batteries (doesn't turn on) and there is no power to the outlets in the coach. I have checked voltage at the donor outlet (120v) and at the inlet to the transfer switch box (also 120v).
I have no way of knowing the actual amperage the donor outlet is providing, code provides that all receptacles are to be 20 amps but I've worked on plenty of older household elec systems where the outlets were 15 amps. However it seems that if the coach was calling for amperage over the capacity of the outlet, the breaker protecting the donor outlet would simply pop.

Is the electrical system going into a safe mode because of the low amperage? It seems odd that the fridge would work but nothing else. I looked at my manual to see how many amps the converter/charger needs but did not find that.

If I fire the genset, all is normal. Same for when I get home and plug into my driveway 30amp. I DID have a similar problem recently at an older state park also. I was plugged into a 30 amp circuit but the Air Cond would run for a few seconds (at low amp draw) and then shut down. I surmised that since I was near the end of the electrical path and farthest from the feed panel there was enough voltage/amperage drop to prevent me from getting enough juice to run the air.

Does anyone have any knowledge if this situation is designed into the electrical system? Before I had my 30 amp driveway receptacle I had the unit plugged in to a 20 amp circuit for two years and all electrical systems functioned although the AC was sketchy at best. That circuit had a true 20 amps to it though.

I would certainly appreciate any insight into what the problem might be or if others have similar situations.

Cheers,

Darwin

Morich · 10-29-2021, 03:33 PM

You are on the corect path to think that if your Rv was requiring more than the circuit was designed to provide it would trip the breaker at some point. Not necessarily right away if you were drawing 17-18 amps on a 15 circuit but it takes a bit to heat and trip. Many times when we see a brekaer trip immediately it is becasue we have created a dircet short to ground so it heats much quicker thatn if you are only slightly overworking things!

A small point that is often confusing is how circuits are designed to give us 15, 20, etc.
All those are connected to the same point in the brekaer box and the 15 amp have "access" to as much power as a 50 amp, just that the power consumed at teh far end like an outlet has to pass first through the breaker which is what limits flow and then through the wire which is sized to carry "X" amount of power which means we want the breaker sized to not allow the wire to get so hot it causes a fire. And then at the very end, the different outlets are made to carry different amounts of power. The 15 and 20 look very much the same but 30 and 50 we make sure nobody can stick a 15 amp cord into a 50 amp circuit without meaning to do it, like using and adapter.

So when having full 50 amps available, all things should run fine, at 30 amps, you might need to rotate things like the AC and not using a hair dryer, microwave and coffee pot at the same time. Normally we would expect the breaker to trip but since it takes a bit to heat and do it's job, the AC may be more willing/quicker to stop than the breaker. The thing about an air conditioner is that it takes a lot of current to start it moving as the motor starts out being pretty close to a short to ground until things start turning, so they need a lot of current to start compared to once they get running.

There are several different drawings for that year,make model, depending on which options are invovled, so before I blunder off into the worng ide, are you set up so you could take a close look at your load center/breaker box to see what breakers you have there and also if you have a separate inverter panel?

Or if you want to go direct to the drawings, perhaps you could sort out whi9ch matches what you have?
Drawings for the 110 AC on your year, make, model are here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_137996.pdf

My line of thought is that you might begin to sort the question down some by cutting off other power users by flipping breakers until the converter was about all left on and see if there might be a problem in the converter or wiring?
Any of those look like what you have?
But I can't tell WHICH breakers to recommend flipping as I'm not sure what you have!!

Mtn Charlie · 10-29-2021, 04:48 PM

How long of an extension cord are you using? A long extension cord drawing only 4 amps may show little voltage drop. The same extension cord drawing 15 amps could have a significant voltage drop. Voltager = Resistance X Current. Since the resistance is constant, as current goes up voltage goes down. When the voltage drops, your system drops current draw to maintain minimal voltage. A larger Guage or shorter extension cord may be the answer.

Morich · 10-29-2021, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mtn Charlie

How long of an extension cord are you using? A long extension cord drawing only 4 amps may show little voltage drop. The same extension cord drawing 15 amps could have a significant voltage drop. Voltager = Resistance X Current. Since the resistance is constant, as current goes up voltage goes down. When the voltage drops, your system drops current draw to maintain minimal voltage. A larger Guage or shorter extension cord may be the answer.

Question on this thought?

Mtn Charlie · 10-29-2021, 07:42 PM

Both!! As resistance from longer cord goes up, voltage goes down. Current actually decreases also for a passive load like a light bulb because current = voltage divided by resistance ( I=E/R), however for an active load like a motor current actually increases because power = current X voltage (P= I X E) and a motor stresses to maintain it's power rating. EDIT That is why low voltage can burn up a motor. Instinct would say that low voltage would just make a motor turn slower, but the motor tries to maintain power drawing more current and developers more heat. (Electronics Engineer since the late '60s)

Seacrazy · 10-29-2021, 08:59 PM

Darwin,
Just one quick idea to check, and you may have already checked this.

This summer on Oregon coast, I lost power on my 01 Journey DL to all outlets, GFCI’s etc. checked all fuses and breakers etc - was driving me crazy. Didn’t even know there was one, but found & pushed the reset button on the Freedom 15 Chg/Inv and that fixed it ! Just throwing out one easy possibility, sounds like you are far beyond my electrical knowledge base tho.

Oh, and on ours the onboard battery charger only charges house batteries, not engine.

Jim

**creativepart** · 10-30-2021, 08:24 AM

Small point for clarification. You said, “ The converter/charger (Freedom)” so is it a converter/charger or inverter/charger?

“Freedom” is an inverter brand, not a converter brand.

I ask because generally you don’t need to “turn on” an inverter/charger for it to begin charge. You turn it on only to invert 12v to 110v. And while plugged in an inverter passes through 110v.

One other point, there is a special 20-amp receptacle that requires a special shaped plug to output a full 20-amps. The circuit breaker may say 20 amp but it sounds like you are on a 15 amp receptacle and using a 15 amp cord.

Your RV’s Power Control System senses incoming service and strives to allow just slightly less power to be used by on board electrical demands. It’s quite possible the PCS has shed all but about 12 amps of loads on a 15 amp shore power feed. The PCS keeps a memory of the last load each device has used and it’s quite stingy in allowing loads to get close to that ~12 amp limit. Plus I think the PCS is programmed to give priority to the Fridge.

Also, make sure the water heater isn’t set for AC power, too. It should be on propane only.

medarwin · 10-31-2021, 06:33 AM

Thanks for all the replies.

First, it IS a Freedom 15 Inverter/charger.

Second, there were NO breaker trips/faults in any of the situations.

The current situation is that the coach is home in the driveway. I have the 50 amp cord necked into a 50-30 amp dongle and plugged into a 25' 30 amp ext. cord and then necked down to a 15 amp 30-15 amp dongle.and plugged into a circuit with a 20 amp breaker.

I deliberately set this up to create as much voltage drop as possible to see how the coach electric behaved. In other words, starve the system for power. I turned on al the 12v lights to create as much battery load as possible so the charger would go into bulk mode. I put the fridge on elect and turned on the AC. Everything worked! All outlets had power, coffee pot turned on etc. I didn't try the hair dryer but if the coffee pot worked, pretty sure there was enough juice for the dryer as well. AC blew cold and stayed on, it surged initially to pull 24 amps BRIEFLY then settled down to a steady 20 amp load. No problems anywhere.

Long story short, I still have no clue for my lack of power on the road. It isn't a huge deal as I can keep the batts charged with the genset and use the inverter which powers up all the outlets. But now that diesel is becoming more expensive than Unobtanium, it's a bummer to burn it when I have access to free juice. An particularly in a CG when I have paid for the juice.

Out of ideas but I have a feeling I'm going to run into this again.

Morich · 10-31-2021, 07:22 AM

If it has happened on several occasions and now seems to work fine, I would look at things that are sometimes intermittantlike loose connections. If you have access to a transfer switch, it is fairly common for the screws to come loose and that can lead to high resistance connections burning the wires.
A good look and retitghten of the screw connections might be a worthwhile game to avoid the next time when it might get worse and burn the wires off!
Just a game the gremlins sometimes like to play, so maybe being aware is the best choice?

If doing this, do keep in mind that you need to have all power like unplugged and inverter off for best safety! While there look for any signs of arcing as an explanation for the things which you can't explain??

medarwin · 10-31-2021, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

If it has happened on several occasions and now seems to work fine, I would look at things that are sometimes intermittantlike loose connections. If you have access to a transfer switch, it is fairly common for the screws to come loose and that can lead to high resistance connections burning the wires.
A good look and retitghten of the screw connections might be a worthwhile game to avoid the next time when it might get worse and burn the wires off!
Just a game the gremlins sometimes like to play, so maybe being aware is the best choice?

If doing this, do keep in mind that you need to have all power like unplugged and inverter off for best safety! While there look for any signs of arcing as an explanation for the things which you can't explain??

Richard, thenk you. I did open up the transfer switch on the second episode. I tightened all wires in the lugs/buses then plugged in and looked for any hot spots of resistance. No evidence of any arcing anywhere. Again, it works perfectly on my electrical system at home. See my post above for my troubleshoot test.

Morich · 10-31-2021, 09:46 AM

Okay, sounds like you are checking the irght things but somewhere there is something intermit. that may be making oit hard to find. Sometimes the opld saying of "we can't fix it if it isn't broke" does come into play.
When you look at the way the transfer switch works in choosing which supply, genreator cord or power cord, it cuts the chase a whole bunch when things work right on generator but not on cord. The confusing part comes in when things work right when at home as that leaves some questions about the power supply in the other points where it was a problem and that is hard to go back and find again as it can be some power problem that is temporary or has been fixed by the time we get back.

There are times when commercial power doesn't get to us as well as it should and some of it is pretty random looking until we can spot some sort of patttern. I case that I have seen a couple times is when we are in rural areas or small towns where the power equipment is more prone to being "manual" adjustments, rather than the more expesive automatic.
It can be a bad combo of equipment that is slower to react as a person has to do the adjustment and also a big surge in use. One place where this can happen is the small town rural power that feeds out into the farm country nearby when lots of milk coolers and equipment tend to come online all at the same time! I had a set of old rectifiers to feed power and they got into a habit of dropping out just before dawn, leaving me about 90 miles to get there to find out WHY! By the time I got there, there was no reason for it to have gone offline but it did it several times, so Ihad to go stay there and watch!
Bingo! The incoming power dropped way too low for our equipment to handle and it shut down, so I ran down to the local electrical site and pointed out the problem who was not too happy as they had to crank it up a bit. But they also explained that it was going to have to go back down or it would be too high later when all the milking equipment went off! Last I heard, it was in "discussion" between my engineers and their local folks as to what was going to be practical ----but the problem stopped and that made mehappy not to be called at dawn for that problem!

There may be a combo of differnt small things but a good look at the power cord , twisting and tugging maight show something??? There are times when the conductors inside can get broken in a way so they connect well at times and not other times?
A bit of mess to find but you might try looking for anything obvious on that.
Right at the plug might be a suspect point??

medarwin · 10-31-2021, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

Okay, sounds like you are checking the irght things but somewhere there is something intermit. that may be making oit hard to find. Sometimes the opld saying of "we can't fix it if it isn't broke" does come into play.
When you look at the way the transfer switch works in choosing which supply, genreator cord or power cord, it cuts the chase a whole bunch when things work right on generator but not on cord. The confusing part comes in when things work right when at home as that leaves some questions about the power supply in the other points where it was a problem and that is hard to go back and find again as it can be some power problem that is temporary or has been fixed by the time we get back.

There are times when commercial power doesn't get to us as well as it should and some of it is pretty random looking until we can spot some sort of patttern. I case that I have seen a couple times is when we are in rural areas or small towns where the power equipment is more prone to being "manual" adjustments, rather than the more expesive automatic.
It can be a bad combo of equipment that is slower to react as a person has to do the adjustment and also a big surge in use. One place where this can happen is the small town rural power that feeds out into the farm country nearby when lots of milk coolers and equipment tend to come online all at the same time! I had a set of old rectifiers to feed power and they got into a habit of dropping out just before dawn, leaving me about 90 miles to get there to find out WHY! By the time I got there, there was no reason for it to have gone offline but it did it several times, so Ihad to go stay there and watch!
Bingo! The incoming power dropped way too low for our equipment to handle and it shut down, so I ran down to the local electrical site and pointed out the problem who was not too happy as they had to crank it up a bit. But they also explained that it was going to have to go back down or it would be too high later when all the milking equipment went off! Last I heard, it was in "discussion" between my engineers and their local folks as to what was going to be practical ----but the problem stopped and that made mehappy not to be called at dawn for that problem!

There may be a combo of differnt small things but a good look at the power cord , twisting and tugging maight show something??? There are times when the conductors inside can get broken in a way so they connect well at times and not other times?
A bit of mess to find but you might try looking for anything obvious on that.
Right at the plug might be a suspect point??

Thanks for the reply.
I've twisted the cords/dongles to re-create the situation but it doesn't happen. When I was on the road I cleaned all plugs/prongs with solvent, no luck there.

What puzzles me the most is that when it happens, I have no ac power ANYWHERE except for the fridge. NOTHING else has 120v to it. Driving me nuts.

It just seems that somehow this is by design. I think each time when I get it home I can troubleshoot the problems. But I can never re-create it. I have often thought that maybe the ac side of the electrical has a not so good ground somewhere but ground wires don't know if they're home or OTR.

Morich · 10-31-2021, 11:41 AM

Yes, sounds confusing!
One other thought, if you have an inverter , is that there is a bit more complex wiring to get Ac to many of the items that would seem to be out, where less complex to feed the frig.
Your 110Ac wiring daigrams here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_137996.pdf

Depending on options, etc. of your spcific RV, the frig may work off a load shedder but much of the rest of the coach may be going through the inverter and panel, making it theoretically possible there is something weird in the inverter switch, etc????

Just another point to look over, perhaps as it seems to be odd if it really is a case of always working on generator while not working on cord. Maybe one of those cases where timing is tricking you into thinking something is true but only happened once in a while??

Sorry, no real good ideas, just thorwing out some points that "might" work!

Kvw613 · 11-03-2021, 04:58 PM

If you turn off the fridge, can you get power anywhere else? Turn off the charger? It sounds like the load shedder. What lights do you see on it? Minimize the load to see what does work.
Also, check the receptacle in the washer dryer closet. It is tied to the other leg of the 50A circuit.

Bobn1957 · 11-03-2021, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by medarwin

This is a 50 AMP coach, both shore power and genset. I have recently on 3 occasions had a need to neck down to 20 amps, while parked at friends without a 30amp hookup, much less 50.

The only thing that will operate on AC is the fridge, which shows a 4 amp draw. The converter/charger (Freedom)will not charge the batteries (doesn't turn on) and there is no power to the outlets in the coach. I have checked voltage at the donor outlet (120v) and at the inlet to the transfer switch box (also 120v).
I have no way of knowing the actual amperage the donor outlet is providing, code provides that all receptacles are to be 20 amps but I've worked on plenty of older household elec systems where the outlets were 15 amps. However it seems that if the coach was calling for amperage over the capacity of the outlet, the breaker protecting the donor outlet would simply pop.

Is the electrical system going into a safe mode because of the low amperage? It seems odd that the fridge would work but nothing else. I looked at my manual to see how many amps the converter/charger needs but did not find that.

If I fire the genset, all is normal. Same for when I get home and plug into my driveway 30amp. I DID have a similar problem recently at an older state park also. I was plugged into a 30 amp circuit but the Air Cond would run for a few seconds (at low amp draw) and then shut down. I surmised that since I was near the end of the electrical path and farthest from the feed panel there was enough voltage/amperage drop to prevent me from getting enough juice to run the air.

Does anyone have any knowledge if this situation is designed into the electrical system? Before I had my 30 amp driveway receptacle I had the unit plugged in to a 20 amp circuit for two years and all electrical systems functioned although the AC was sketchy at best. That circuit had a true 20 amps to it though.

I would certainly appreciate any insight into what the problem might be or if others have similar situations.

Cheers,

Darwin

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 50 amp cord a 4 wire system and the 30 amp cord is a 3 wire system? When plugging a 50 to 30 amp dongle into your coach you are only powering half of the coach, that would explain your symptoms.

Morich · 11-04-2021, 11:01 AM

That's where it matters so much exactly which RV and which options are involved. With so many different versions of the same year, make, and model it is important to get to the right page and then you can start sorting out which options on that page are included on the specific RV. With four different pages of different drawings for the 110AC portion alone, throwing in the question of which options were bought on that Rv, really makes it a minefield to sort without knowing.

Kind of like shooting ducks while blindfolded. You have a better chance of hitting the right things if you take the blinders off!
Otherwise one can waste a lot of ammunition and maybe ruin something you didn't want to hit?

**creativepart** · 11-04-2021, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

That's where it matters so much exactly which RV and which options are involved.

Richard, it's a 2002 Journey 36LD I'm not sure if it's a Journey DL or just a plain Journey. They made both that year.

Morich · 11-04-2021, 01:06 PM

Yes. picked up the details there on modles but then there are four different basic wiring schemes for that model and year, tow with stand alone inverter panels, two without.
Different layouts have differing number of basic breakers 7,8, 10, or 11, and each has a differentnumber of options listed 6,7,8, or 9!
They all show load shedder boards as a common item but getting down to basics like even the cord gets different things as some have 6-3 cords and others with 10-2 cords!
Is it a 50 amp system that goes to a 50 amp main breaker first or is it one which splits and goes to one 30 and one 20 amp?
Much the same RV but also much different?

But when looking for what might be wrong with shore power, it comes down to what might be wrong and we don't know what is there?

Since the number of breakers in the main load center is different on each, counting the breakers there would ID the correct drawing. 7,8,10, or 11 would all fit for the drawings.

MetroManic · 11-04-2021, 06:30 PM

I had the same problem with my '03 Journey DL when I plugged into a 120v circuit at my daughter's house - I was only 10' from the outlet but the house breaker popped immediately when I plugged in. I thought we either had something on in the coach that drew too many amps or I had a short somewhere - it turns out that house circuit was a GFCI circuit and it did NOT like my RV. We ran the necked down cord a little farther to a circuit without GFCI and no more problem. Fridge and TV worked just fine on the 120.