Battery Mode and Solenoid Relays

[wlupton57]

Not sure if this is normal or not but Relays are making connection/clicking sounds while being powered with 30 amp shore power. Not continuously but intermittently. Might anyone has some experience will this?

Winnebago 2014 Journey 42E new to us.

[hderr]

Can you tell where the clicks are coming from? Transfer switch? (Ours is next to the power cord in the power cord compartment.

[Morich]

Location of the clicks would seem to be important as there may be some logical explanation, but the item clicking and the specific timing of those clicks will likely be needed for a firm answer. One that I could think of might be as simple as the charging system coming online to charge the batteries to replace power used and then shutting down when they are not needed. Keep in mind that lots of the interior items like lights are still using 12VDC even when on shore power and then that power is put back into the batteries. Some equipment may also have cooling fans which operate at times and you might hear a click from them. Depending on the frig, gas valves may open/close in a way that some might hear if not switched to electrical.

[wlupton57]

There is a panel on the rear of the motorhome by the diesel drive, and it is labeled "Battery Mode and Solenoid Relays". The clicking clunking sounds are coming from behind the cover at times. There are two pair of heavy gauge power cables to two relays - the cables are purple, red, yellow and green coded. The relays are labeled as Tyco Electrics and are High Current Relays.

Thanks for your interest. Thinking this might be common and part of the battery charging system.

Bill

[Morich]

Okay, we can maybe get some info going as the battery cables have a color code using the tape on the ends. These solenoids are something that get lots of confusion but they are pretty important to how the power can be used. One thing they do is when we start the RV engine, they pull one solenoid which is just an electrically powered switch to tie the two battery strings together while the engine alternator is putting out 12 VDC and this works to recharge both the coach batteries and the start battery as we drive to the next campsite.
Also there is likely a switch on near the dash labeled something like AUX or boost and that switch can pull one of these solenoids to connect the batteries together when we might find the start battery not enough to start the engine. Kind of automatic jumper cable?
Normal for these to click at those times, but I don't think of a situation when they should be clicking very often when just on shore power. But there are lots of different small points that RV do and I would not want to bet much on there being other times that I'm not thinking of right now!

EDIT:
Pages 1,3,6, and 8 of this drawing gives more complete info. Possible the solenoid you mention are on page 8?
https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram...ire_181720.pdf

[wlupton57]

Morich

Yes, i recognize the Boost starting switch on the dash.

There is a solar panel charging system, and just thinking that the sound i have noted is in the evening while on shore power and the solar effectiveness is waning.

Bill

[wlupton57]

thanks for drawing.....

[Morich]

Got your email and can go either way to communicate. If you do want to post some pictures here, there are others on the forum who are far better at knowing the big pusher units, so they may notice something in pictures that I miss on drawings, etc. So your choice but if you do want to post pictures on the forum:
Click "go advanced" with the pictures on your computer, etc., scroll down to find "manage attachments"Click to bring up drop down menu, click "choose file and choose from your computer file, then be sure to click "upload" then when it says it is complete, go to the "preview post" to see the result!

[hderr]

I found this drawing on another forum and try as I may, I can’t find the original
author of the drawing to give him credit. So I apologize to him and hope he is ok
for posting it here.

Note the solar panel connection.

Found the author, grtharris
https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post2548195

[creativepart]

That represents what I have in my 2017 Adventurer. And, the solar is effectively similar, only the positive (and neg) wire runs straight to the coach battery terminals not to the middle of the BIM and disconnect solenoid. Since it's shown in the drawing also running directly to the coach battery it is effectively the same thing, not not actually the saem.

[hderr]

Originally Posted by wlupton57

Morich

Yes, i recognize the Boost starting switch on the dash.

There is a solar panel charging system, and just thinking that the sound i have noted is in the evening while on shore power and the solar effectiveness is waning.

Bill

I don’t have solar panels, but I’m thinking if you can turn the panels off,
disconnect or pull the fuse you would be able to tell tonight if it’s the panels
trying to keep charging the batts. No clicking!

Hank

[QuiGonJohn]

We just took an 8 day trip in our 2006 Winnebago Aspect 26A Motorhome. On the trip, we boondocked 4 nights at Walmart. Due to the cold, we heated using our propane (which ran the fan off the battery). 3 nights were fine, battery drained a little, but recovered quickly while driving. But the last night the battery drained much more, only 1 light lit on indicator (which has a total of 4 lights). In the morning, we could not start the generator and the lights were noticeably dim. On the drive home (about 325 miles), the battery hardly recovered, at one point it had 2 lights, but I tried to start the generator, it wouldn’t start and drained a bit off the batteries again. At home, I plugged in the RV and the charge showed full and I could start the generator. On the road, I tried to read the voltage at the Parallax Charger/Power Convertor, it said 10.33, then 10.38. Now the battery seems fine and reads 13 something.

I have (2) AGM Optima batteries in parallel. In July 2013 I upgraded my charger/power convertor to a BEST PD4645V Parallax Upgrade Convertor.

I think I have a problem with the Battery Mode Solenoid. Checked chassis battery, 12.8, turned on engine (alternator running) now 14v. But at Battery Test points in Convertor (for House Battery) still only 12.99 with engine running, (shore power cable unplugged).

How can I find the correct Solenoid and how do I replace it? It is located in a compartment just aft of the coach steps, behind a panel.

[Morich]

I might not jump to that just yet as there are some things which may be more a lack of fully understanding batteries than actual failure.
Not saying it is for sure but this is what I might see as a problem.
One is that we often give more credit to voltage readings than we should as they seem so simple but they do take some thought.
There is a problem with the way we read the voltage at the terminals of the battery which is the only place we have but do NOT tell us the full story. The battery is a chemical reaction deal and that means there are six cells of chemicals connected together with each cell having the potential to storage a given voltage charge. Those six cells added together gives us the nominal 12.8 voltage of a fully charged battery.

The most frequent problem is that we look at the voltage, testing the posts at each end and may see 12+ volts and say it is fully charged. We may even see it say 13 volts if the charge is still there or recently removed, but that is what we call a "surface charge" and soon goes away as the chemicals fully settle.

We might think of it the same as if we had six containers of water connected through tiny little tubes and we fill the first container to full and say the whole string is filled? When we come back an hour later we may find it only half filled after the containers levels all settle.

It takes many hours like 6-8 or more to fully charge a battery, so when we run one down and drive a few hours, we may se a reading that say it is fully charged but only see the surface charge and it may only be 75% charged, so we run it that night, drive again and see it as charged so we do this a few times in a row and the charge may have actually gone from to 100, 75, 60, to 50 or less and the battery fails!

So does what happened to you sound like what I describe? If you did not let the batteries charge for 8 hours and then let them settle for several hours before looking at the voltage, you were likely being mislead by techie things that are not always easy to spot when they lie to us!

I suggest testing first, before jumping to replacing the solenoid.
1. Let the batteries settle fully for several hours without charging or too many things turned on. Don't worry the small parasitic drains for this.
2. Put a meter on the coach batteries, get the voltage before starting the engine and if you have waited for it to fully settle, it will be less than 12.8 volts.
3. Start the RV engine and you should see the coach battery voltage go up and likely may show as high as 13 volts if you rev the engine a bit as the mode solenoid should have connected the engine alternator and start battery to the coach battery. On the other hand, if the coach batteries are really low like 9 volts, it may take a bit for the incoming charge to show as high as 12 but the incoming voltage will certainly show big time!

If I am totally wrong and you do have a real problem, the coach voltage will not change and then we do need to look further.

[QuiGonJohn]

So we were plugged in at RV park in San Antonio for 4 days, so when we left, charge should have been fine. First day on the road was probably 8 hours or so, but with some stops, then we overnight at Lafayette, LA, ran propane heat, with draw for fan. Next day on road, again about 8 hrs, stop overnight in Chipley, FL. Same with heat except in the morning, only 1 indicator light, could not start Gen. Started coach engine, still could not start Gen, let it charge on the drive home to Spring Hill, FL.


I do have a voltmeter and when driving home that last day (while my wife was driving) at the Convertor I got the 2 voltages I listed. I do have a Battery Boost rocker switch. I know there is a “Battery Mode Solenoid” located in a compartment near my steps (you have to access that from outside and remove a cover plate, then remove the breaker panel (these are the push style breakers). At one point, the charge light was not lit (early on the drive home). I toggled the Battery Boost and that light lit up, so I thought all was well, but apparently not. Very puzzled about this.


This afternoon, I attempted to check for a bad fuse in the Engine Compartment Power Distribution Center (tech at BEST suggested look for Tow or Gen, I found a couple labeled Trailer Battery Charge Relay). But as far as I can tell, they were good. We got home Tuesday afternoon and the coach has been plugged in almost all that time, except when I did some testing. So not sure exactly what steps I should take next. Thanks for helping!

[Morich]

Sounds like there may be a bit of different things going on. One is perhaps missing the idea of the boost switch as it is normally designed to make the mode solenoid connect the two battery strings together but for what we might call a different or opposite reason than when the mode solenoid is operated as we drive.

When we drive or have the engine running, the mode solenoid operates, connects the two strings together to get some charge into the coach batteries, which are often assumed to be somewhat down after our camping. Often not the case when we have been plugging in and not actually running the batteries down, but still assumed that it might be true, so it is designed to do this.
But when we have found the start battery to be somewhat weak (maybe we left the radio on?) and we want to have a "jump start", we can push the boost switch and it operates the mode solenoid to tie the coach batteries to the start battery and that is the same as a "jump start" with jumper cables!
So I kind of think of it as doing the same with the solenoid but for reverse reasons as one we help the coach batteries recover and the other we help a weak start battery do it's job.

A careful look at the boost switch may show that it is not a normal switch which we click and it stays but a momentary switch which only stays as long as we hold the button. One way to kind of check this idea is if you have a somewhat quiet area and stay near the solenoid while somebody pushes the boost switch, you may here the solenoid operate as a thump or click.

We may hear the same when we start the engine but tricky to do while all that cranking noise is going on. If you can get a hand in far enough, you might feel it???

Many, if not most of our RV have near this same setup, with some easy to get to but others like mine and yours, are not too easy to get to as they are behind the breakers. Mine is outside on the left side and I have looked in several times and even was so curious to take the screws out but stopped there as it then would have required pulling and trying to get the breakers and all that wiring out far enough to actually get my hand in. Not actually having a current problem, I stopped before making one!
This drawing shows how mine, and I suspect yours are laid in behind the breakers.

That is where I suggest doing some testing to see if it works----without having to actually get to the parts.

So the basic idea is that we have two batteries or groups, start and coach and when all is setting without plugged in and no engine running, both sets will be 12.8 or less if they have not been getting any charge in the last couple hours or so.
If we look at the start and get some number , look at the coach and get a slightly different number as batteries are all slightly different, and then we do one of two things that should connect them together, we can say the solenoid is working!
I consider it easier to go with watching the coach batteries as they are around 12.X and then when we start the engine we expect them to jump higher as they get connected to the start battery and the alternator through the solenoid. The alternator on a car, etc. often puts out as much as 14 volts to charge the batteries after starting the engine.

That is the old surface charge thing as we see the voltage go up but it is not a "real" indication f the total battery charge.

Bottom line is that if you watch the coach battery voltage and then it starts to go higher when you start the engine, the solenoid is working! If you have a digital meter, you may actually see the voltage go up or drop off as you rev the engine or let it idle.

If I am wrong and there is a real problem, then I need to rethink the deal and there are really definite items that can be checked on the solenoid---but they do require getting behind the breakers, so not something I suggest until you find it needed.

[QuiGonJohn]

Richard, thanks again. Yes my Battery Boost is spring loaded open, to have it engage, you have to be holding the button down. Several years ago I had a weak chassis battery and successfully used it to start the engine.


I do think that for some reason, the two systems are not connecting (solenoid not engaging correctly or at all), because if the systems connected when I started the engine, power from the chassis battery/alternator should have allowed me to get the GEN started, but did not.

I will try to listen for the click, me with my head in that compartment and have my wife press the battery boost. At least we will know if it is being triggered. I also read sometimes it can be triggered, but the contacts internally are not meeting and passing the current.

[Morich]

Yes, I would first looking at hearing it, but it might also be good to listen both as the boost switch is pushed as that is one path for the power to move the solenoid but then also try it as the ignition key is turned on but before actually cranking the engine, due to noise. There are two sources of power to the solenoid but using one single wire from the front to the solenoid.

But then keep in mind that I may be totally off the mark for several reasons. One is that I'm pretty close to guessing on past looks but also the parts of the wiring which are considered the normal chassis builders area, are not shown on the Winnebago drawings. That leaves me with no idea of how the power gets from the start battery to the ignition switch and then to the wiring to the solenoid. I know it has to get there but what route is something of a mystery, moving it over more into the field of guessing!

But if you get over into having to deal with the solenoid, this drawing may help a bit. I marked the power from the front, down to the solenoid, where it goes through an internal coil and out to ground. This is what powers the electro-magnet to move the contacts that I marked as red to connect a big cable on left to a big cable on right, one being coach and the other start battery power. And you are correct in that the contacts inside the solenoid can get burned and corroded so that even though we hear the solenoid move, them may not pass the current. Very much like the starter solenoid on a car that we used to hear click but the engine not turn over?

[QuiGonJohn]

So I just did some testing.

1. Engine off, press Battery Boost, heard click.

2. Engine off, had wife turn key to last pos before starting, heard click.

3. Started Engine, heard click, the first time the battery voltage at the Convertor went from 12.8 to 13.2, so I thought maybe it was working now. Then we retried this and every additional attempt, even with engine running, voltage at test point stayed at 12.8. So it seems to be something intermittent (possibly the contacts in the solenoid itself). But also, it seems everything that allows that solenoid to work (Battery Boost button or any fuses/relays that control the solenoid), are probably good, since it is clicking when turning the key/starting the engine. Just not consistently closing the contacts to pass the current.

What is you opinion on this? Is this a fairly common component failure?

[Morich]

Sounds correct! If it works some of the time as you describe, that should say the switch, wiring and the solenoid connections are okay and those are not too prone to being intermittent but the contacts inside the solenoid are pretty common failure points as every time we start the engine, they do close and get a fair amount of arcing which is what burns them. They are made of heavy material to try to slow this down but they still take a beating. Being intermittent is one way to make it hard to spot what is wrong!

So you do likely need to dig deep in behind the breakers to get the solenoid changed.
But what to change it with is open to lots of opinions and there are lots of ways to go. Some have brands they like far better but I have not had to change this part often enough nor kept any one Rv long enough to have a favorite so I tend to go with what is cheap and easy to find which is often just the local auto parts stores like on every corner.

These are the same things as used on car and boat starters, so I go for one that has the same terminal arrangement and many have the same mounting, just to make it not need to think to hard on where the wires go back! Some have three terminals and some four, so I just match what I have and never had to change the same part again anyway, so I don't sweat the higher quality ----even if I could find that!

I might go with any of these:
Home depot
https://www.google.com/search?q=sole...TTlijlt994OCSM
NAPA
https://www.google.com/search?q=sole...-8J_0IweeZBwnM
Auto Zone
https://www.google.com/search?q=sole...egOj224DwNR2DM
Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/TISCO-Tisco-D.../dp/B00DQXX3TS

Or it might be fine to just get it out and take it to a parts shop and ask what they have to match it , mostly 12Volt but then whether 3 or 4 lugs saves thinking! Back a lot of years, we used to pry the top off and clean the contacts to get another six months but that was in a different lifetime!

[QuiGonJohn]

Thanks,


I also did one other test. Removed POS from House Battery, test at Convertor -0-. Turned key & start engine, still -0-.


I found the supposed original Winnebago Part online at:


https://www.gkohado.com/index.php?ma...ucts_id=594967


For only $25, vs $44 from Winnebago.


Oops, looks like that website is a scam and "sells" all kinds of things, not just RV Parts.