Battery Mode and Solenoid Relays

[Morich]

Originally Posted by QuiGonJohn

Thanks,


I also did one other test. Removed POS from House Battery, test at Convertor -0-. Turned key & start engine, still -0-.


I found the supposed original Winnebago Part online at:


https://www.gkohado.com/index.php?ma...ucts_id=594967


For only $25, vs $44 from Winnebago.


Oops, looks like that website is a scam and "sells" all kinds of things, not just RV Parts.

Whoops and that's when the fun really begins! There are several sites around for parts and I never find the same "good deal" at the same place, so I always have to check around. Part of the thinking on shopping may also be to keep in mind that this is not a part that is specific to RV but lots of different things use a solenoid of the same type. So figuring out if it is better to get one for starting a car or one for a boat or tractor can get interesting!!
Anything that has a need to connect two big high current cables together and uses an ignition key is likely to have some form of solenoid like this.
Best of luck on the chase as I think you see the path to hunt for the thing!

[QuiGonJohn]

Finally got all the parts I needed, new Solenoid (I went with the Cole-Hersee), I also wired in an Amp-L-Start to keep my Starting Battery maintained, and various misc items, like boot covers, heat shrink, etc. Just finished the last of the work today.

Thanks again for all your help.

[RVwithDogs]

That is a nice clean install..
I am fixing to finally install a TRIK-L-START on my Navion, right now I just use a small charger pugged into the dash socket which works great (I have dedicated 30 amp service at home) but as Richard pointed out in another post, that's just another set of wires in the way.. Did you get your AMP-L-START from LSLproducts and how long did it take to get it ?

[QuiGonJohn]

Yes, I got it from LSL. It took kind of long, but I think the USPS was most of the problem. Ordered on 1/29, USPS updates until 2/3, then it just said "on it's way but will be late". I think it finally showed up on the 10th. Was about to have them reship one. I have it connected to both sides (Start Batt on LEFT and HOUSE Batt on Right) of the Battery Mode Solenoid I replaced. The compartment where the solenoid is, is just below and aft of the R side of my Power Center in the pic. So I pulled the Power Center out and ran the 2 wires down. I connected the Ground to the main GROUND on the Power Center. Because it is out in the open (I wanted to be able to see the status lights) I covered both POS Terminals with mini-boot covers. All works, including the solenoid which I tested with the engine running and also tested using the Battery Boost Switch.

FYI, we've owned the coach since April 2012 and I have had to deal with the Start battery dead many times, when getting ready for a trip. We keep the RV plugged into shore power at home. And keep the A/C on but set to a very high temp, (just protecting from EXTREME heat damaging electronic items). We had a TV go bad (replaced under warranty), paperwork said when not used, max ambient room temp should be under 125. So if we're not using the RV, I keep the A/C at it's highest setting 99. So it gets warm in there, but that temp will not damage anything we keep in there. And that high temp setting doesn't break the bank on electricity usage.

[RVwithDogs]

good info, thanks. I guess Patience is not one of my virtues. Just find it hard to understand why UPS can arrive in 2 or 3 days and USPS can take 18 days for a xmas card.. oh well, the shipping time will give me time to figure out how / where I want to install it.

[QuiGonJohn]

Heck, it ships from San Antonio, TX. We live in Spring Hill, FL. We visited San Antonio in January in the RV and made the drive home in 3 days, (2 nights on the road). Yet this part took almost 2 weeks. Something is wrong there. I bet it was stuck in a sorting facility and took a couple days for someone to notice it and move it along to the next point.

[imnprsd]

Your 3-pole solenoid is grounded by mounting it to the panel. I have heard that some of these solenoids don't ground properly.

To address this possibility of an intermittent or weak ground, then all you have to do is add a ground wire. So you might try that and see if you can identify an intermittent problem down the road.

OTHER COMMENTS

How old are your batteries?

How cold did it get the other night or day when you first identified your problems? ...And were your recharging your batteries over night? ...I would think if you are using your batteries that the cold would not affect them, but in sub-32F weather, batteries do all sorts of strange things. What they do not do very well is "come back from the dead." However, a weak cell inside a battery will get worse over time. And since all cells work best with "equalized" the battery life will be drastically affected within a short period of time. So if you are the beginning of this cycle, you will find out soon enough if you have a weak battery cell... which most of the time you can verify by doing a Hydrometer Test, but not always.

The best load test to check the health of your house battery is to run your microwave while you check the DC-voltage on your Power Panel. A strong set of batteries will drop to low voltages and then recover as soon as you turn the microwave off. And if if do this a few times you will see your volt meter read 1/10 of a volt less, but a weak set of batteries will drop by 0.5V and stay there.

Latching solenoids do not need power to stay "Latched" in one position. Your BDS aka "Salesman Switch" is a latching solenoid. See video for more information:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload...&v=UGxJs5XaSWY

Your Boost Solenoid is a "Momentary" switch and that's why you need to hold it down to operate (join the chassis battery to your house battery) to "Boost" power in the event you need a jump-start. And when you are not pressing the switch no high power current will pass, but power is always present to the coil. So if you are having battery drain concerns, this solenoid might be suspect if the coil is shorted to ground... usually created after using the "boost" or "jump" switch since those contacts inside are handling a lot of current. This is why they recommend you only buy a boost solenoid with silver contacts.

The most common boost solenoid used in RV is made by Trombetta and it's called a 12 Volt Bear DC Contactor Part No. 114-1211-020.

• Tombetta’s “-020” type has the desirable silver alloy contacts, and the Tombetta “-010 has copper contacts that fail more frequently.

==> The following BDS solenoid is a higher quality solenoid then your OEM BDS. However, it's a 4-pole solenoid that will work for your application if you add a ground wire. ...And IMHO, this is a better choice over your 3-pole solenoid. (...And I would be interested in other people's opinion on this.)

Amazon: $40

https://www.amazon.com/INTELLITEC-01.../dp/B072N8NYN2

[QuiGonJohn]

imnprsd, who is your last post directed to. I don't think to me, as my issue is resolved. If it was to me, I actually installed the Cole-Hersee which has 4 terminals, 2 for the coil and one of those I put to ground. The other has the power to trigger the relay and also a diode, which I reinstalled on the new one. Thanks!

[imnprsd]

I think I got on the subject of solenoids by several people and then wanted to express my thoughts in general, and for the benefit of others who are trying to make sense of how these things work.

I may have rambled a tad too much, but oh well. The road to learning often requires some patience.

For example: I know the cold weather can really ring havoc on Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries. I have stored my RV in freezing climates and my tow car battery failed to make it through a Montana winter. And another cold winter in Texas, my house batteries failed because I did not leave them on a battery maintainer. That said, people do not talk about winterizing their batteries, but these too need to be kept above 32F if at all possible. ...Maybe that's the missing point I was trying to verify by asking some general battery questions.

As for solenoids, I believe we covered everything anyone needs to know on this subject except this one: After 10+ years, I would change them out for new ones just so my trip is not interrupted at the wrong time, and then I would keep the old ones as backups.

[QuiGonJohn]

Thanks. In our case, our trip in Jan saw mid to upper 30's at night. First 2 nights enroute to San Antonio we parked in lots and used our propane to heat. Of course the fan draws on the battery, but quick recover from alternator while driving. The last 2 nights, heading home, same thing, except the very last night, batteries got very low and no longer any recovery from the alternator. Voltage tests told me it was the solenoid (and learning about the system here and other RV sites). So I replaced it, and added Amp-L-Start to help my starting battery from not draining too low while parked a long time (like at home), I do keep the RV on Shore Power at home.

[imnprsd]

The elusive B.I.R.D. is also a relay and is prone to failure (as in your house batteries are low after a drive) and/or battery drains. So this maybe a topic worth mentioning if you have an older RV with one of these who purpose to enable the charging your house batteries while you drive.

Note: A BIRD is not a charging device, but a smart battery switch. It is made by Intellitec and BIRD stans for Bi-Directional Isolator Relay.

My 2004 Itasca Horizon RV never came with a house battery charging circuit from Winnebago. However, one of my first upgrades after I bought my RV 5 years ago was to add a Keyline VSR.

This Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR) connects my two battery banks together... and it has been working flawlessly. So IMO, if I had a BIRD or other Isolator Relay, and it failed, I would yank it out or turn it off by removing the Isolator Relay, and I would install a VSR at the battery bank as show below.

Here are the BIRD circuit diagrams I kept for reference:

[Damon T]

great thread, thanks for all the good replies as I probably need this too.