No BRAKES!! 2005 Sightseer 30B

LadyFaire · 10-27-2023, 04:49 AM

Stupid question time - does my coach (2005 Sightseer 30B) have a booster pump for the brakes?

Here's the scoop. We were planning on going to the beach for a week. Took the coach to fill the gas tank and the propane tank, went to the local dump station to empty the other tanks and were headed home for the last of the 'put in the coach for the trip'. The propane fill station is about 10 miles north of our place and the dump station is about 10 miles SOUTH of our place, so from the one to the other was about 20 miles. When we pulled out from the propane fill station, we heard an odd sound, not loud and no jarring of the coach - me: "Did I just hit something?" Hubby, "don't see how, but I'll take a look!" Stopped the coach, he got out, did a complete walk around and saw NO damage of any sort. We both shrugged and continued to the dump station, about 20 miles away. As we left the dump station, we started smelling something hot or burning. Real clunker in front of us, so we figured it was burning oil. All the way home, the smell got stronger. Hubby went towards the back of the coach trying to localize the smell. When I turned off the highway onto the road towards our place, I braked, of course, and the pedal went to the FLOOR! "NO BRAKES!! NO BRAKES!!" I had enough brakes left to slow the coach for a safe turn and got to a place I could pull over. I got the coach to stop and we just sat for a moment. OK, turn on the 4 ways, go VERY slowly and get the coach back in the driveway.

Called our auto mechanic (doesn't work on large trucks or motorhomes) and described what happened. He said it sounded like we lost our booster pump for the brakes, and the smell would have been brake fluid on the exhaust.

We do NOT have a decent shop any closer than an hour and a half drive, so driving the coach to them is not going to happen. There IS a place that works on large trucks near by. I do NOT want to pay them for a massive diagnostic ($250/hr diagnostics), nor do I want them to hit me up for a 'brake job'. Has anyone here had a similar problem, and what was the root cause?

Ray,IN · 10-27-2023, 08:18 PM

What is the chassis, Ford or Workhorse?? Workhorse/GM used a brake booster. If it has leaked you will see brake fluid on the engine. I expect you would also lose power steering as both use the same fluid reservoir.
Here is the Workhorse MH chassis section on brakes: https://www.dropbox.com/s/krt0i0d5d2...rakes.pdf?dl=0

If you have a Ford F53 chassis, we need to start over,

LadyFaire · 10-27-2023, 08:36 PM

GM/Workhorse. Steering still worked just fine. And if it DID use a booster, that must be what went.

Ray,IN · 10-27-2023, 08:52 PM

You will find the entire Workhorse MH chassis manual on irv2.com/Workhorse and GM chassis forums. I just linked to Ch 5 = brakes.

IMO you might want to create a Workhorse file folder on your computer and download each of the links, that way you have the entire chassis manual on your computer. The way the internet works, those files can disappear at any time in the future.

I have my chassis manual on a thumb-drive and carry it in the MH when traveling.

Don G · 11-01-2023, 08:00 PM

A bad brake booster would not cause your brake pedal to go to the floor. You would loose assist and end up with a hard brake pedal. Sounds more like you have lost brake fluid and the result is the low brake pedal. You can start by checking the brake fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir. If the fluid is low top it off, then pump the brake pedal and look for brake fluid leaking under the coach. Could be leaking from a line or a brake caliper at one of the wheels.

Morich · 11-01-2023, 09:03 PM

A "quickie" way to look if a brake leak is at a wheel is to look for signs of brake fluid splashing out all around the inside of wheels as a leak there will often run onto tires and driving slings it out all around the inside of the wheel?

Alfred622 · 11-07-2023, 06:00 PM

I h ad a similar problem in my 2005 Sightseer - after driving a while and smelling something really hot, I found my brakes were extremely mushy. It was a bit concerning. So, I called for a tow. An hour later when the truck arrived, my brakes were working just fine.

Turns out that I had a stuck brake caliper. It got SO HOT that it boiled the brake fluid and that made the brakes very mushy. The repair shop freed up the caliper and no problems since.

Not sure this is the same as your problem, but it is what happened to me.

LadyFaire · 11-07-2023, 06:20 PM

Well, took the coach to a local car dealership that SUPPOSEDLY does work on large trucks and RVs. They are clueless. They screwed the pooch when I took the coach to them for the chassis AC/heat problem and they did just as bad with the brake problem. I have an appointment on Monday with a reputable RV service center (they found and fixed my AC/heat problem) which is an hour and a half drive away. I was NOT going to pay Colonial Auto (Charlottesville, VA) over $7K for a full, all wheel, complete (new discs, rotors, booster, etc) brake job on my coach! Yes, that is the price they quoted. If, indeed, it IS a caliper problem, that should be an easy fix. When I brought it home from the local shop, the brakes worked just FINE! I hate an intermittent problem as it is much harder to diagnose and fix. But, I am hopeful that the shop on Monday can clear it up for us at far less than $7K!

iezzif · 11-13-2023, 12:05 PM

Make sure you check the brake lines, especially for the rear. Mine were corroded and leaking

wahoonc · 11-18-2023, 07:58 AM

Pedal to the floor sounds like either a blown line, seal, or master cylinder issue.

Aaron

Morich · 11-18-2023, 10:00 AM

I'm not much of a truck chassis guy, so have paid little attention to when changes were made. That brings a question.

Do any of you other folks follow trucks close enough to know what year they may have gone to the newer twin system with two sections to avoid total loss of brakes when one or the other of the two sections fails?
In the cars I've driven it was way back, like maybe in the 60's?
Are truck regs so slow to change that they would be still using the single section version into the 2005 RV that the OP has?
Safety rules are often slow to change but I have a hard time believing something so simple would not have been done way sooner than even 2000??

This link takes you to a pretty recent posting where the OP had trouble with a '99 model RV which has the dual system but they had broken the alarm sensor. That would make me think a 2005 would certainly also have the newer setup?
https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...er-367428.html

Looking at how ALL the brakes could go at one time, leaves me thinking it may have been a series of bad events rather than one single failure?
Not knowing any history of the RV, this can only be a guess but some of the basics seem to make me think this.
Some of you better car /truck folks may be able to point out flaws in my thinking, so don't be shy if I'm missing some big points!

If the brake booster fails, we still would get braking, just not as easy and we might have to press harder to stop.
If one part of the brakes like a front brake line fails, we should lose the front but still have the back brakes to stop. We should also get an alarm light on the dash to warn us the brakes need checked!

But there is one situation where we might suddenly find we have no brakes.
If the RV has the improved, safer twin setup of separate front and rear brakes, the only way I see to lose ALL brakes if if there is some hidden history!
Say the brake alarm light on the dash came on due to loss of function on front or rear brakes. But, instead of fixing the brakes, somebody just disconnected the alarm to clear it, we might not know what we were driving.
Then one day the second set of brakes failed and we had NO Brakes!

Any of that make sense to you truck fixing folks?

LadyFaire · 11-18-2023, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iezzif

Make sure you check the brake lines, especially for the rear. Mine were corroded and leaking

After our disastrous first trip, I had the ENTIRE chassis gone over by a large truck expert. I told him that I didn't want to be surprised again by something preventable. He agreed. Went over everything and didn't report any problems. I think he would have noticed corrosion. So, I'm going to hope this is a 'simple' problem, like a stuck caliper that released after it cooled down. Hey, it's POSSIBLE. Anyway, I'll let y'all know what the shop finds.

Morich · 11-18-2023, 05:21 PM

Something quick and pretty easy to spot might be worth a look? If it is the two section brake setup, it is easy to spot. If you can find where the brake fluid is added out under the hood, there should be lid of sorts to remove. Inside that lids, where we add the fluid there are two sections or a big opening (Tank?) that is divided. Each section then has a metal brake line coming out to go down to front of rear brakes.

This is one of the pictures from the other brake posting that shows where the fluid is on a 99 and I might guess it is very much the same on yours??

Maybe just all the fluid is gone?
Both front and back should be full!
But if anybody took even a half hearted look, they should have spotted anything this critical!

Don G · 11-19-2023, 06:18 AM

One other thing to check which was mentioned earlier is that when the brakes heat up the brake fluid can boil, essentially acting like air in the brake fluid. This causes the pedal to drop when braking. Brake fluid is hydroscopic meaning it absorbs moisture from the air over time. When was the last time the brake fluid was replaced? Water In the brake fluid will boil at 212f. Brake fluid can exceed this temperature even under normal braking conditions. When you throw in a sticking brake caliper it can go way over that temperature. If the brake fluid has not been flushed in 3 years, I would do that now. If you have an intermittent brake caliper sticking, you will at least have a good brake pedal.
Then you could safely do a good road test and check the temperature at each of the wheels to see if any appear to be hotter than the other wheels.

Morich · 11-19-2023, 07:51 AM

Let's discuss what happens when a caliper sticks. I don't agree that this is likely for losing one wheel's braking to make the pedal go to the floor. Nor would I expect one caliper sticking to make you lose total braking.

If a caliper sticks, it is normally stuck with the brake on that specific wheel stuck on. that creates lots of wear on the braking material at that wheel and also heat. If it is driven far enough and creates enough het, it will boil any water out of the fluid at that wheel. When either happen, we will lose the braking at that wheel.
But with a stuck caliper we lose 1 of four wheel's braking, not the entire system and that is why it is designed the way it is.

I will agree that if the system is so poorly maintained that the amount of water boiled off making the reservoir for both front and rear brakes go dry, then we are in bad shape on the total system and we may lose ALL the brakes.

But this system was supposed to have been checked and if part of the check did not involve the brake fluid ,there is a much bigger cause than a sticking caliper!

Yes, I fully agree that water in the fluid will boil off and the brakes will get lower and lower but it is not something that happens in one trip. It has to be years of neglect on not changing the fluid, combined with years of not checking the fluid level, so that the reservoirs BOTH go dry!
Even the worst of the worst shade tree mechanics will check the fluid levels and should catch that. Most places would check the brake fluid levels on oil changes!

So what does the fluid level look like now?

LadyFaire · 11-19-2023, 08:04 AM

I cannot get to the brake fluid. It is UNDER the coach, and you cannot see in - you have to dip a finger. This is what Winnebago said, so I'm not sure. I'm claustrophobic as well, so crawling under the coach gives me the heebie jeebies! I'm going to trust the shop on this one. A lot of suggestions are beyond my abilities. I'm not blowing the suggestions OFF, just not sure of my capabilities in carrying them out. Just like the chassis AC/heat problem. I never thought about doing a radiator flush and fill! The mechanics are supposed to take care of that during standard service, right? Apparently NOT. The shop said the radiator had not had a flush and fill in at LEAST 10 years! My car mechanic does that during normal maintenance, so I ASSUMED the RV mechanic would as well. Nope. Also, the one shop that wanted to tear out the entire AC/heat system to 'diagnose' the problem never even LOOKED at the radiator. Once the flush and fill was done (5 flushes just to get it CLEAN), the AC and heat worked just fine. Something that simple, and the local shops completely MISSED it. That is why I'll take the coach an hour and a half away for service I can TRUST.

Morich · 11-19-2023, 11:18 AM

Bummer! What I seem to find on RV is just pretty disappointing. There seem to be good mechanics around but they tend to work in full time auto or truck repair and do the same type or class of work every day. That lets them get really much better at what they do.
Kind of like learning to be a fire cook versus one who does the salad?
You are better at what you do if you only do a few things all the time!

But when I look at most RV repair shops, they have a few guys who ALL things on all Rv.
So folks who do the chassis and engine parts may only do it once a month and do air conditioning, furnace, and backup cameras the rest of the time!
They never really get the total picture of any of them on any specific brand as they have a mind bending array of problems.
I guess I can't fault them too much as they have an almost impossible game to play, so how can they be great at everything?

They get like me and start guessing? I've never owned an RV that didn't have the brake fluid just out there under the hood, so thought it easy to check! WRONG!

LadyFaire · 11-19-2023, 12:26 PM

I have TWO RV shops - one is for the COACH, the other is for chassis. I don't know WHO I would go to for ENGINE or transmission problems, if the chassis shop can't handle them. It is so SPOTTY. I will NOT go to a Camper's World shop - the owner of the 'brand' made a broad sweeping statement during the last election - he didn't want ANY conservatives or Republicans or Trump supporters to come to his businesses! Stay away!! OK. No problem. Also, the mechanics and techs at the 'factory service' shops don't do much, they don't like to do much and the shop doesn't do much. Why? Because the factories (brand) refuses to pay more than an hour or two labor no matter WHAT the problem, so why should they work hard if they don't get paid. I totally understand that mindset. If it weren't for the fact that we'd take a total bath on it, I'd sell mine and try to find another. But hubby said we'd just be exchanging known and mostly fixed problems for unknown problems that we'd have to do all over again. Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE my "Pooh", but boy-o-boy do I get tired of "one thing after another".

Don G · 11-20-2023, 05:46 AM

Water in the brake fluid will only increase over time and will never boil off. Search water in brake fluid and there are many articles addressing this issue. I have attached on of many links (if i did it right).
I also believe in today's environment repair shops are short staffed and too busy and tend to avoid regular maintenance over more profitable repairs. This leaves the task of taking charge of our own maintenance and requesting these services or inspections are performed.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._&opi=89978449