|
|
06-11-2019, 01:40 PM
|
#1
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 3,587
|
Basement Air - Compressor #2
I finally got back to my basement air issue now that I've sorted out some transfer switch issues. My MH is wired for 30A shore power. The generator is wired to the transfer switch to feed both 30A and 20A. Here's a summary of where I am:
1. Shore Power - I'm plugged into my garage so I don't have a full 30A available but Compressor #1 works, drawing 15 - 16A (with no other loads). Compressor #2 tries to start but doesn't "catch" and run. I've also replaced both the start and run capacitors on compressor #2 with no improvement.
2. Generator - Same results as with shore power even though both 30A and 20A generator circuits are energized. I read on another thread that the power management system isn't going to show the additional amps from the 20A generator circuit so I've confirmed that there's no additional draw by using a clamp-on ammeter on the 20A wire going to the transfer switch. Compressor #2 is definitely not running.
3. I've also confirmed that 120V is available at the A/C control board for both compressors.
4. It's actually doing pretty well just on compressor #1. It's 99 degrees outside (12:51pm here in the Sacramento area) and the thermostat room temperature is 82 degrees (76 degrees set point). The air coming from vents is 62 -63 degrees. The MH is in my driveway in full sun. The amp draw is steady at 16A on shore power. I've had it on since about 10am so it never built up a very big heat load to overcome.
If I can narrow the problem down to a bad compressor, I'll probably just replace the whole unit. It's 17 years old and I can't see spending a lot of money on replacing the compressor, etc. On the other hand, if it's a relay, control board or similar issue I'm open to repairing it (DIY of course).
Replacing the capacitors was the obvious place to start but, other than going through the step-by-step troubleshooting guide from the manual, does anyone have any ideas?
Are there any parts between the control board/capacitors/relays and compressor #2 that could have failed that would require pulling the unit to diagnose and replace?
Thanks.
__________________
Bob C
2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U
Workhorse Chassis
|
|
|
06-11-2019, 08:30 PM
|
#2
|
Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 120
|
Sometimes an older compressor is described by HVAC guys as "a hard starter" and they MAY just need a kick in the pants. I would suggest that you try one of the hard start capacitor assys such as those available from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Supco-SPP6-Ha...s%2C185&sr=8-2
Some guys call them a "kicker" and they are not all that expensive to try. The units shown further down on the Amazon "Hard Start Capacitor for RVs" page would be a better choice for longevity. They have a potential relay and just last longer. But just to see if you need the hard start, the SUPCO would be an inexpensive way to go. Two connections to make (with the power off) and just hang it inside with a nylon tie strap or two. The large capacitor in your unit right now is the start/run capacitor; the kicker will parallel that cap with a huge value of capacitance for a large increase in starting torque and it will drop out in probably 800 msec or so......just a "kick in the pants" and then gone. (Capacitors in parallel are additive; just the opposite of resistors which, in series, are additive.)
I suspect you may know all this "stuff" but I just include it FWIW .... maybe to others.
Might give it a try..........since it is so inexpensive (and if it works, buy a Lotto ticket :^] )
Good luck and safe travels...............
__________________
Ed Sievers, Denver, CO
07 WBGO Outlook 31-C Sold Real good coach, just time to hang up the keys at 91.
"Be the person you needed when you were younger"
|
|
|
06-11-2019, 10:30 PM
|
#3
|
Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 120
|
Ooops! On re-reading your post I see you have replaced the start AND run capacitors. I was thinking (obviously not, really) that your unit didn't have start caps. Disregard the above. My bad.
Good luck on the fix.
__________________
Ed Sievers, Denver, CO
07 WBGO Outlook 31-C Sold Real good coach, just time to hang up the keys at 91.
"Be the person you needed when you were younger"
|
|
|
06-12-2019, 09:08 AM
|
#4
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 3,587
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by youracman
Ooops! On re-reading your post I see you have replaced the start AND run capacitors. I was thinking (obviously not, really) that your unit didn't have start caps. Disregard the above. My bad.
Good luck on the fix.
|
Thanks anyway, it may help out a future reader.
__________________
Bob C
2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U
Workhorse Chassis
|
|
|
06-13-2019, 01:45 PM
|
#5
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 992
|
What is the amp draw when compressor #2 tries to start? Does it jump up from the 15-16 amps to over 30 and stay there? If so something is wrong with compressor #2.
Any chance you can us your clamp on amp meter to measure the wire going to comp #2 to see if amps are going high and staying there?
|
|
|
06-13-2019, 04:41 PM
|
#6
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 3,587
|
It jumps but I don't remember how high. You can hear the start-up sound for a couple of seconds and then it stops and immediately drops down to the 15-16 amps. I've suspected it's bad but want to eliminate all other possibilities.
One thing I've thought about trying is to switch the wires around so that Compressor 2 becomes Compressor 1. The only thing that would prevent this from being a definitive test is if there is a part or part(s) between the control board, relays, etc and the compressor. I don't know the answer to that question.
__________________
Bob C
2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U
Workhorse Chassis
|
|
|
06-14-2019, 10:29 AM
|
#7
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 992
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC
It jumps but I don't remember how high. You can hear the start-up sound for a couple of seconds and then it stops and immediately drops down to the 15-16 amps. I've suspected it's bad but want to eliminate all other possibilities.
One thing I've thought about trying is to switch the wires around so that Compressor 2 becomes Compressor 1. The only thing that would prevent this from being a definitive test is if there is a part or part(s) between the control board, relays, etc and the compressor. I don't know the answer to that question.
|
About the part or parts question.
I too would like to know.
What I did find on my 2006 Journey, is that if I switch off the 20amp AC circuit breaker labeled "A/C Circuit 2" nothing works on the air conditioner. The fan won't run and no compressors start. It seems like the fan motor is powered by the #2 C/B. If I switch off "A/C Circuit 1" then the fan will start and stop and one compressor will run. I have no idea if that is compressor #1 of #2. Probably doesn't matter.
|
|
|
06-14-2019, 11:52 AM
|
#8
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 3,587
|
The 30A breaker A/C 1 is supposed to be compressor #1. The 20A breaker A/C 2 is supposed to be compressor #2. Compressor #1 should start first and run while compressor #2 will start and run second, based on the temperature differential. Here's how the Basement A/C manual describes the sequence:
8. A TYPICAL COOLING CYCLE OF THE HEAT PUMP
Begins with a call from the wall thermostat for High or Low fan (customer choice).
Indoor fan starts on the selected speed.
Within a few seconds the thermostat will call for cooling.
Compressor 1 starts.
Outdoor fan starts 2 seconds later (Low Speed).
1 minute later the thermostat calls for second stage cool (subject to 2 degree temp. differential).
Compressor 2 starts, the outdoor fan goes off (subject to available 115 volt power supply).
Outdoor fan starts again 2 seconds later (High Speed).
Both systems operate to satisfy the thermostat.
Both compressors shut off at setpoint temperature.
When the thermostat calls for cooling again it will start by calling for stage one only.
If the heat pump is unable to keep up with the load, stage 2 will start again when the indoor temperature is 2 degrees above the setpoint.
If it's not operating properly, I'd suggest you check your wiring diagram. If you're not the original owner, there's a possibility that a prior owner has mis-wired something:
http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_153555.pdf
__________________
Bob C
2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U
Workhorse Chassis
|
|
|
06-14-2019, 12:32 PM
|
#9
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 992
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC
The 30A breaker A/C 1 is supposed to be compressor #1. The 20A breaker A/C 2 is supposed to be compressor #2. Compressor #1 should start first and run while compressor #2 will start and run second, based on the temperature differential. Here's how the Basement A/C manual describes the sequence:
8. A TYPICAL COOLING CYCLE OF THE HEAT PUMP
Begins with a call from the wall thermostat for High or Low fan (customer choice).
Indoor fan starts on the selected speed.
Within a few seconds the thermostat will call for cooling.
Compressor 1 starts.
Outdoor fan starts 2 seconds later (Low Speed).
1 minute later the thermostat calls for second stage cool (subject to 2 degree temp. differential).
Compressor 2 starts, the outdoor fan goes off (subject to available 115 volt power supply).
Outdoor fan starts again 2 seconds later (High Speed).
Both systems operate to satisfy the thermostat.
Both compressors shut off at setpoint temperature.
When the thermostat calls for cooling again it will start by calling for stage one only.
If the heat pump is unable to keep up with the load, stage 2 will start again when the indoor temperature is 2 degrees above the setpoint.
If it's not operating properly, I'd suggest you check your wiring diagram. If you're not the original owner, there's a possibility that a prior owner has mis-wired something:
http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_153555.pdf
|
Great info. Thanks Bob.
I have many or most of the wiring diagrams for my RV, I guess I missed that one.
|
|
|
06-16-2019, 05:37 PM
|
#10
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: ...hopefully on the road!
Posts: 1,653
|
If only one compressor is running, that is #1. Compressor #2 WILL NOT RUN uness #1 is running.
__________________
Paul (KE5LXU) ...was fulltimin', now parttimin'
'03 Winnebago UA 40e TRADED OFF JUL 2023 / '17 Jeep Grand Cherokee toad
|
|
|
06-16-2019, 08:39 PM
|
#11
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,520
|
Compressor #1 and the rest of the system should run even if you turn off the breaker to compressor #2. I shut down the breaker to the second compressor when plugged into the 20 amp service in my garage and I have a 2001 35U since if we have a power fluctuation the One Place power management will loose the 20 amp setting which has to be set manually and then blow the breaker. The capacitors according to the service manual are supposed to be sold and replaced as a set with the capacitor and the solid state device and should be sold as a matched set.
When I first got my 35U they switched around the wiring when they replaced the transfer switch and had compressor #2 connected to the breaker from compressor #1 and visa vie so that would be the first situation to check for since it appears to be a common mistake.
I switched the wires feeding the capacitor for compressor #1 to compressor #2 to verify the compressor when I first had problems and the #2 compressor ran fine and compressor #1 then wouldn't start verifying the problem was still in the capacitors.
I eliminated all these problems when I put an Autoformer in my coach to correct the low voltage from extended brownouts from damaging electrical components which probably should be addressed after you sort this out. It has been about 7 years now since I've had to deal with a problem with any of the capacitors or solid state devices in my AC unit, control boards, transfer switches, etc since I starting using the Autoformer to correct low voltage issues which has saved me thousands of dollars in services.
__________________
Neil V
2001 Winnebago Adventurer WFG35U
|
|
|
06-16-2019, 08:50 PM
|
#12
|
Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 18
|
The system can be rewired to make number 2 compressor be number 1. My number 1 unit failed a while back and a tech moved a couple of wires on the circuit board to make my number 2 take over and operate the A/C with one compressor. The tech informed me that I should probably not use the system as a heat pump as the computer would try to pull in the second compressor and the unit would not be able to keep up with the heating needs forcing the gas heat to be required to take over. He was simply taking the stress off of the heating needs. By making your number 2 take over as number 1, it will probably not run at all since the number 1 has to be running before the number 2 will start.
|
|
|
06-17-2019, 05:38 AM
|
#13
|
Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 246
|
This my sound like a dumb question, but do you have 20 amp selected at the control panel in your rv? If so it may be shedding the power to compressor 2. when mine is running it draws more than 20 amps.
__________________
Mike S.E. Ohio 2002 Adventure 35u flat tow a 2016 Equinox. Also a 2018 Pleasureway XLMB
|
|
|
06-17-2019, 09:56 AM
|
#14
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 3,587
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikf
This my sound like a dumb question, but do you have 20 amp selected at the control panel in your rv? If so it may be shedding the power to compressor 2. when mine is running it draws more than 20 amps.
|
Not a dumb question but, nope, 30A is selected. Plus, I have the same issue on generator power. My next step is going to be switching the wiring around between #1 and #2.
__________________
Bob C
2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U
Workhorse Chassis
|
|
|
06-17-2019, 10:01 AM
|
#15
|
Winnebago Owner
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 38
|
I have a 2000 Adventurer with the basement ac. According to my documentation, when plugged into 30A service, only the first compressor will operate. Only when operation on generator power will the second compressor come on. (weird design, right?).
Operating your ac on 'house power', 15-20A on a long extension cord is minimal power and could be detrimental to the health of your ac. MHO.
|
|
|
06-17-2019, 02:13 PM
|
#16
|
Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 46
|
Possible low refrigerant in compressor 2 circuit? Starts then shuts down.
|
|
|
06-17-2019, 06:16 PM
|
#17
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 3,587
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kvw613
Possible low refrigerant in compressor 2 circuit? Starts then shuts down.
|
I'm not super knowledgeable about A/C, but why would low refrigerant cause compressor #2 to shut down? In my other vehicles, low refrigerant causes high temps but the compressor still runs.
__________________
Bob C
2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U
Workhorse Chassis
|
|
|
06-17-2019, 09:58 PM
|
#18
|
Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 8
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC
I finally got back to my basement air issue now that I've sorted out some transfer switch issues. My MH is wired for 30A shore power. The generator is wired to the transfer switch to feed both 30A and 20A. Here's a summary of where I am:
1. Shore Power - I'm plugged into my garage so I don't have a full 30A available but Compressor #1 works, drawing 15 - 16A (with no other loads). Compressor #2 tries to start but doesn't "catch" and run. I've also replaced both the start and run capacitors on compressor #2 with no improvement.
2. Generator - Same results as with shore power even though both 30A and 20A generator circuits are energized. I read on another thread that the power management system isn't going to show the additional amps from the 20A generator circuit so I've confirmed that there's no additional draw by using a clamp-on ammeter on the 20A wire going to the transfer switch. Compressor #2 is definitely not running.
3. I've also confirmed that 120V is available at the A/C control board for both compressors.
4. It's actually doing pretty well just on compressor #1. It's 99 degrees outside (12:51pm here in the Sacramento area) and the thermostat room temperature is 82 degrees (76 degrees set point). The air coming from vents is 62 -63 degrees. The MH is in my driveway in full sun. The amp draw is steady at 16A on shore power. I've had it on since about 10am so it never built up a very big heat load to overcome.
If I can narrow the problem down to a bad compressor, I'll probably just replace the whole unit. It's 17 years old and I can't see spending a lot of money on replacing the compressor, etc. On the other hand, if it's a relay, control board or similar issue I'm open to repairing it (DIY of course).
Replacing the capacitors was the obvious place to start but, other than going through the step-by-step troubleshooting guide from the manual, does anyone have any ideas?
Are there any parts between the control board/capacitors/relays and compressor #2 that could have failed that would require pulling the unit to diagnose and replace?
Thanks.
|
Bob if your caps are good and you have confirmed that you have proper voltage to the compressor when the contactor pulls in and the amp draws exceeds the RLA for the compressor, your compressor is most likely seized up. If the compressor is seized up quite often the internal thermal overload will open before it trips the breaker. I hope this helps.
|
|
|
06-18-2019, 09:28 AM
|
#19
|
Winnebago Master
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 992
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckmor
I have a 2000 Adventurer with the basement ac. According to my documentation, when plugged into 30A service, only the first compressor will operate. Only when operation on generator power will the second compressor come on. (weird design, right?).
Operating your ac on 'house power', 15-20A on a long extension cord is minimal power and could be detrimental to the health of your ac. MHO.
|
Very interesting that the documentation for your 2000 Adventurer states only Comp #1 will run on 30amp.
Have you tried to run both?
I run my 2006 Journey on 30amp including a 30 foot 30amp extension cord in addition to my 25' 50amp cord all the time on 30amp. Even in 90* plus temps.
With the fridge on gas and no other high power devices in use, running both compressors only pulls about 20-21 amps. Starting amps for comp #2 does jump to over 30 amps for a second or two, but that is not a problem.
Of course, as you state, trying to use a 15 or 20 amp long extension cord will damage your A/C if you try to run it for very long. Low voltage really stresses electric devices.
|
|
|
06-18-2019, 04:31 PM
|
#20
|
Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 246
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC
Not a dumb question but, nope, 30A is selected. Plus, I have the same issue on generator power. My next step is going to be switching the wiring around between #1 and #2.
|
I do not think it is your compressor. I just went out and selected 20 amp on my power management panel. compressor 1 came on a minute later #2 kicked and amps jumped up and and compressor turned back off because the power managed shut power off to it. Compressor 2 never tries to come on with generator running, but I never checked to see if it should.
__________________
Mike S.E. Ohio 2002 Adventure 35u flat tow a 2016 Equinox. Also a 2018 Pleasureway XLMB
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|