Looking for help with 2007 Journey 39K not starting

[dickb46]

following..

[dickb46]

Our 2003 has a starter relay (?) on a steel plate, on the passenger side, frame rail, just in front of the engine, accessible by removing the steel floor under the bed. (It's the front component on the plate.)
Similar problem, key on, dash warning lights on, wait light goes off, turn key, "click" no crank.
The difference is I could keep turning the key on and off and eventually it would crank.
for what it's worth..

[Don G]

Based on the picture, I would say that you are going to need a new starter. I would clean the end of the studs with a wire brush so that you can get a voltmeter on them to test for power when someone is turning the key to start. In from battery you should see the same voltage as the battery. On the control wire you should see around 12v when turning the key to start. On the large wire that goes to the motor (green marking by Morich) you should see around 12v when attempting to start. If you have good voltage here then you need a starter. In your picture it appears that the boot around that wire has started to melt from high resistance and has finally burned up. When you remove the cables from the starter you will want to disconnect the batteries first to avoid shorting out the batteries.

[Triton]

Yeah those cables to starter solenoid look pretty rough. I’m going to see if I can get under there this morning and if I have enough room to move around and get them disconnected and cleaned up.
I am planning to turn the chassis power switch (in the rear upper left near the air filter indicator) to off before I start to hopefully alleviate any arcing/sparking.

[Morich]

Definitely do be carefull and take the care to be sure power to the starter area is off before trying to get the nuts loose. One slip in a tight spot can easily let the rachet handle slip over to hit a metal part that is grounded! Most metal in that area like the engine are ground and sparks will be massive and dangerous!

One of the big advantages the guys who do this all the time is that they have the better tools as they need them often. One of those is a good power driver of some sort with long or flexible extentions and deep sockets.
They have the right combo of tools to let them get a socket on even when it takes a deep one and then the power tool can give the torque needed without having a big long rachet handle sticking out to whack into some point!
And the tool truck comes by every week or so to show them all the best new stuff!
Meanwhile, folks like us who only do it once a year or so, try to get by with less than the best???

Been there most of my life and now that I've about got lots of those nice tools, I no longer want to work!

[Mongobird]

Forgive me on the budinski, but I have a similar rig, and while I have never had this problem with this rig, I have owned diesel cars, and tractors almost exclusively since 1976. My intuitive ideas were/are: 1. 12.6V is on the low side, and if the chassis battery is marginal, there may not be enough power to spin the engine. 2. I like large power supplies. Another large battery, heavy jumper cables, a booster charger. 3. Fluid check on the cells on the chassis batteries. 4. The rusty cables at the starter just look really bad, but may not be the issue. 5. 50% or more of my click but no rotation issues have been disc in the starter solenoid issues.

I use a smart charger, always connected to the chassis batteries, and every now and then, in warm weather, I cycle the desulfate sequence.

If all of the sudden this ended up in my lap, I would start soaking all the nuts, disconnect the batteries, possibly get them load tested, and pull the starter for testing.

In the meantime, if you had to get the engine going, I might try tapping the starter/solenoid combo while holding the key in the start position. Sometimes a tap will get over a dead spot in the armature or cause the contactor disc in the starter to shift just a little, and get things so that a connection would work. I can think of a certain C-172 that needed just that one -40 day. It worked fine at warmer temps, but was marginal when really cold. I doubt you have that problem today. Good luck. And Morich, good coaching!

[Morich]

Originally Posted by Mongobird

Forgive me on the budinski, but I have a similar rig, and while I have never had this problem with this rig, I have owned diesel cars, and tractors almost exclusively since 1976. My intuitive ideas were/are: 1. 12.6V is on the low side, and if the chassis battery is marginal, there may not be enough power to spin the engine. 2. I like large power supplies. Another large battery, heavy jumper cables, a booster charger. 3. Fluid check on the cells on the chassis batteries. 4. The rusty cables at the starter just look really bad, but may not be the issue. 5. 50% or more of my click but no rotation issues have been disc in the starter solenoid issues.

I use a smart charger, always connected to the chassis batteries, and every now and then, in warm weather, I cycle the desulfate sequence.

If all of the sudden this ended up in my lap, I would start soaking all the nuts, disconnect the batteries, possibly get them load tested, and pull the starter for testing.

In the meantime, if you had to get the engine going, I might try tapping the starter/solenoid combo while holding the key in the start position. Sometimes a tap will get over a dead spot in the armature or cause the contactor disc in the starter to shift just a little, and get things so that a connection would work. I can think of a certain C-172 that needed just that one -40 day. It worked fine at warmer temps, but was marginal when really cold. I doubt you have that problem today. Good luck. And Morich, good coaching!

All good points and nothing yet to say the solenoid conacts are not the true cause! As for others adding their thoughts, that is certainly not a problem for me as it can work to clear some questions if other people have different views.
I have my way for searching for clues while others will often have their own methods. No problems with folks wanting to help.

Once we get down to the basic ideas of what makes a starter solenoid work/not work, there is a somewhat simple thing we can do.

When we get down to knowing the battery power is getting to that first big lug,we can see that power has to get into the contacts, through them and to the second smallish cable built into the starter.
That leaves us an easy option for testing if we have a bit of grit and faith in what we are doing!
Growing up poor farm boys, we had to work out ways to get equipment to run, even if it was pain for everyday use!

One way to get an old truck to start when we had a bad solenoid was to use some old tools that were already so beat up that they were not harmed by a few burned spots from arcing! Turn the ignition to hot, touch the point of some toll to one big solenoid contact and use some other tool to short it to the second contact! Junk pliers are handy for this!

Bingo! It will turn the starter, even if the solenoid is totally bad! Big brothers are a handy thing to have for teachers!

[Mongobird]

Originally Posted by Morich

All good points and nothing yet to say thesolenoid conacts are not the true casue! Am for others adding their thoughts, thatis certainly not a problem for me as it can work to clear some questions if other people have different views.
I have my way to searching for clues ahweile others will often have their own methods. No problems with foplks wanting to help.

Once we get down to the basic ideas of what makes a starter solenoid work/not work, there is a somewhat simple thing we can do.

When we get down to knowing the battery power is getting to that first big lug,we can see that power has to get into the contacts, through them and to the second smallish cable built into the starter.
That leaves us some easy option for testing if we have a bit of grit and faith in what we are doing!
Growing up poor farm boys, we had to work out ways to get equipment to run, even if it was apin for everyday use!

One way to get an old truck to start when we had a bad solenoid was to use some old tools that were already so beat up that they were not harmed by a few burned spots fro arcing! Tour the ignition to hot, touch the point of some tooll to one big solenoid contact and use some other tool to short it to the second contact!
Bingo! It will turn the starter, even if the solenoid is totally bad! Big brothers are a handy thing to have for teachers!

Been there, but the starter on the CAT is the biggest starter I have dealt with. And I know a guy who did that to a Kubota, and the tool welded across the terminals. Then trying to break it off the terminals, the prybar, already dull cherry, broke. Leaving a bridge between both lugs on the starter. In the end the starter burned up, setting the nearby plastic bowl for the fuel filter burning, and the overhead diesel tank gravity fed the flames and about 30 minutes later, with the local fire department trying to contain the cut straw burning on the ground, the Kubota was burned out, except for the tires, which lasted another 40 minutes.

[Triton]

Yikes!! Not sure I want to arc my screwdriver at the solenoid now…..
Ok, my buddy came over shortly after I removed and cleaned the connections at the starter and solenoid. Still no start. Hoping to alleviate bad batteries, he backed his rig over that has two new 900 CCA and we placed jumper cables on. Still no start. I’m so confused now and beginning to get frustrated.
BTW, thanks everyone for chiming in. The more minds the better I would think.
Anyway, there’s a few things I’ll mention because it’s bugging me. First, in normal operation when I turn the key to on the dash lights run a test then go out except for the parking brake, low air indicator and glow plug light. Then after they warm up the glow plug light goes out and turning the key to start initiates the starter and we get running. Odd though now I never see the glow plug indicator except for when all dash lights are in test. I know it’s already warm outside but I’ve never not seen the glow plug light on until now.
Also we don’t know much about volts and amps but when we take readings at the batteries there’s a different result depending on what battery posts we check. See attached pictures and note the volts and posts checked.
Buddy left now so troubleshooting with more than two hands will need to wait until he can make it back over.
I’m thinking I should just go ahead and remove/replace the two chassis batteries and go from there when I know they’re good. Not sure exactly how old these are but we’ve had the rig and used it without issues for almost 3 years now. Besides if I don’t need them now I will before very long. Thinking that may be my next move. And a picture of the starter plate in case I need to price and replace. Thought’s everyone?

[Mongobird]

I would load test the chassis batteries, not just replace them.

Ditto for the starter. Take it off and get it tested. Some car parts places have test fixtures.

[Triton]

Is there a procedure I can use to load test the batteries here at home? I only know of Autozone that tests batteries and if I take them out I may as well replace them.
Removal of the starter will be one of my last guesses. It’s secured with 4 bolts and only 3 appear to be accessible. The fourth corner appears to be between the starter and the engine block and I don’t see how I can get to it. Not accessible from the top as it’s level with the frame rail. Sigh….. I really don’t want to spend large $$ on a mobile mechanic.

[Triton]

It sounds too simple but could it be the ignition switch itself?

[Mongobird]

Originally Posted by Triton

It sounds too simple but could it be the ignition switch itself?

If you clip (carefully) an alligator lead to the starter control terminal on the starter, which powers the solenoid when you "start", and see if you get 12V there when you "start" then the ignition switch (and likely a relay) are most likely working. Good test to do, and you don't have to be under there when you "start" if you have a long enough jumper to a light or a meter.

[Triton]

Wilco. I’ll give that a shot next time I get out there. Thanks

[Morich]

OR as another way to test, if you have somebody turn the key while you listen or feel of the solenoid, you can often hear or feel it thump and that tells you the power is getting through the switch and any parts to get down to tell the solenoid to operate!
If you feel it operate, then the question is IF the power to start is getting down to the first big lug and the contactsd inside are passing that power on to the starter!

Maybe just get the wife, GF, or kid next door to turn the switch? Lots of different ways to test and which works best is a personal thing with who and what we have around!

[Mongobird]

Originally Posted by Morich

OR as another way to test, if you have somebody turn the key while you listen or feel of the solenoid, you can often hear or feel it thump and that tells you the power is getting through the switch and any parts to get down to tell the solenoid to operate!
If you feel it operate, then the question is IF the power to start is getting down to the first big lug and the contactsd inside are passing that power on to the starter!

Maybe just get the wife, GF, or kid next door to turn the switch? Lots of different ways to test and which works best is a personal thing with who and what we have around!

Agreed. But to be fair, I was trying to distill the ignition switch test to the solenoid.


If power gets to the solenoid actuator, but no start action, then the issue is most likely to be the solenoid or the starter, or the system of both parts.


Alternatively, one could disconnect the actuator wire, and then apply 12V (through a suitably heavy wire) to the starter actuator terminal, but there will be some spitzer sparking, and if it works there will be noise, and possibly the big scary engine firing up, frightening the gullible tester under the rig.


But I am biased, because I am suspicious of the battery power, and of the age and condition of the starter. My gut says that I would rule out a dead spot in the starter or in the solenoid (which relies on a disc of copper moving around to extend contact life).
[If the battery was low in charge, or had a weak cell, then the start current might be higher than with a higher voltage power source. That slightly lower voltage could result in a higher starting current, which could aggravate a marginal contact disc, in the solenoid. Look this is just a scenario which I am considering, it is not what I am saying happened.]



Triton, you should interpret the differing diagnostic narratives not as disagreement, but rather as discussion, which may help you better understand what is going on.

[Morich]

YUP! There are always going to be different ideas of what needs to be tested first and a lot of that is just a plain old "feeling" we each get at different times. Sometimes that feeling is right, sometimes we have to back up and get another idea!

[dickb46]

Looking at the pictures of you testing your batteries, that voltage difference has to be bad a connection at the battery, retightening them should correct that.

In warm weather my wait light normally goes out as soon as the other warning lights go out.

And again, on my 2003 Journey there is a starter relay that sends power to the starter solenoid. (under the bed, on the frame rail, passengers side, forward most relay).

[Triton]

Appreciate all of the comments and understand we each may have different ways of doing things. No matter, we’ll get there.
My bad. I forgot to mention that we did hear the starter ‘thump’ yesterday when we were out there fooling around with it. Shouldn’t that rule out the path from the battery to the starter?
Regarding a starter relay under the bed, my only access under there is a smaller (1x2 ft) panel above the exhaust brake. I’m not sure I can get down to the frame rail without falling in. Even if I did find the relay I don’t know how to test/check it.

[Triton]

Dickb46,
Do you recall how/what eventually corrected the problem?