Looking for help with 2007 Journey 39K not starting

[Morich]

Since we get so little info on the chassis wiring and can't tell if there is a relay in midstream, a test might tell. I would doubt there is one as it would have to be pretty hefty relay contacts to carry the current for starting an engine.

If you are putting 12VDC on at the battery end and it comes out at the starter, there is no relay in the middle that has to close!

If you test the voltage at the battery and then compare the voltage that you have at the first big lug on the solenoid, they should be nearly the same with only a slight drop in voltage of a few tenths of a volt. A reading of 12.7 at a fully charged battery that has had time to get stable should come out no less than 12.2 or so at the solenoid.
There is a little drop in voltage over long cables but not much like more than a volt!
Put some voltage level on at the battery and see it come out close to the same at the solenoid and you are getting there with no relay or other opens between!
Put 12.7 in and only see 10? come out and there is dirt or corrosion at some point between!

One good practice on checking at any connection like the battery is to check both the actual post on the battery and also the clamp that connects to that post. If there is any difference in the post voltage and the clamp voltage there is dirt in between and the connection needs to be taken apart and cleaned!

[Triton]

Ok so here’s a little more data.
If I need to check voltage again no problem. My friend has the good meter and he’s out right now. I have one but it’s very basic. I just have to find it.
In any case I used my basic 12v test light at the control wire on the starter. While the girl turned the key to start I observed the light on. I think that should tell me I’m getting power to the solenoid but perhaps not enough amps to start it?
I do hear the thump you speak of though it sounds like it’s coming from the front of the engine vice at the starter? Also, I’m hearing a buzzing sound for a second or two following the thump. Not the click click click we’ve all heard from a bad starter, but who knows? I made an 11sec video with my phone but it won’t let me upload it. Perhaps too many bytes. Let me know if you want me to PM my email address so I can attach it and you can hear it.

[Triton]

Unless we still want the batteries in for troubleshooting, I intend to take them out and clean the terminals and connections thoroughly with my new handy dandy wire brush.
Hopefully that should clear up the voltage difference at the battery terminals.
I’ll research if I can get two new chassis batteries from NAPA. It might take me a little while as it’s hot as heck outside and I work again tomorrow. Let me know if we should keep the old ones in for now?

[Morich]

That sounds like a mixed bag for results as it sounds like progress but not what we might like.
The thump does mean that the controls voltage is moving the solendoi contacts. That is good but then the noise is something that may not be good.
A bit of hum might be expected as the solenoid is setting there holding the contacts but sounds are hard to describe or really even understand if not really used to hearing that sound at the location. Is it a buzz for a few seconds or what I might call a sizzle?
what happens to solenoids in many cases is that the contacts that close will arc just a bit as they close. Tiny lightening jumps acrosss the gap just before they close!!

Too much of this arcing means the contacts get burned too much and they con't actually make contact but may sizzle for a bit? If it is a sizzle or a buzz can depend on what we each think of it!

Lots of this depedns on small points that wecan't really see at times. We may help it if we get more power at the battery end by cleaning or putting jumper cables on. Or we may help if we clean the ends at the solenoid or starter end as any of those point may get more power to where we need it on the starter motor windings.

But then we may be getting good power to the solenoid and it's contacts not letting that power get through to make the starter turn.
If it were a hose and running water we might look at it and know we are turning the faucet on and water is in the hose but just a dribble coming out the end. We could see it and know there is a kink in the hose! But we can't see the power and have to kind of test or guess about what it is doing.

And that brings up the worst part of this as the solenoid is part of the starter and really hard to change to get a new starter in place as well as being the more expensive item!
Getting to and getting those cables off the starter solenoid is way tough, too!

One way to go that might tell if either of those is really needed?
When we do a jump start from one car to another, we normally do it at the batteries of both. We hook the negative or grounds to gether and the positives together to get the power from the jump car to the bad one.

but is we connect a jumper car/truck from the poistive battery post to the connections on the RV starter, then connect a jumper from the jumper car negaitve to the frame or the negative of the rV, we are connecting the same two things. just at a different place on the RV cable.
Instead of connecting positive to positve at the battery of each, we are connecting positive of jumper like normal but on the RV we are connecting to that positive at the solenoid.
If we put the new jumper 12VDC on at the starter solenoid, we KNOW it is high enough and we know it is getting there as we clamp onto the starter post!
So if it doesn't turn the starter when we hit the key, it has to be the contacts not passing it on to the motor!
One way to avoid being real close to all that motor when it may try to start is to connect the cable to that post on the solenoid first, get back away from anything that might move, etc on the engine and then connect that cable to the jumper car positive, connect the negative cable to the frame, etc on the RV and as a last step, we can expect to get some sparks as we connect the last negative cable ends between the two vehicles!

Look at this for what I suggest?


1. If you can get close enough, do step one first to connect a cable to the big battery post on the RV solenoid. Directly on the bolt itself, not on part of the cable clamp etc that might not being making good contact! Not where the short little wire/cable thing goes to the starter motor. Crawl out and away to be clear if it moves/starts, etc!

2. Connect the other end of that cable to the positive of the jump car or truck. No big sparks or anything moving is expected as the RV and that battery are not connected on the negative side!

3. Connect a jumper cable from frame or some solid clean metal on the rV as the ground side.

4. Connect the other end of that cable to some part of the jumper car frame or negative of the battery. Reason we like to connect the ground side last and away from the battery is that it may spark and if we are having a bad day fumes around the battery can create a fire. I've never had it happen but being careful is always a good idea!

Once all four ends of the two cables are connected, you have the same thing as jumper cables between the two batteries except at the starter. Try turning the key and the blue contacts at the solenoid should move up and connect the 12 volts directly to the starter motor for it to turn!
That is putting power on as near to the starter motor and only the contacts between to keep it from turning IF the starter is good and the contacts are good!

If this doesn't get it to turn, the starter or solenoid is bad and the starter has to be changed as the solenoid is built as part of it!

If it turns and tries to start, there is a problem getting power from the RV battery to the solenoid! Most of the time it is dirt/corrosion at some connection!

Don't do anything unitil it feels right and you have all the ducks in a row! We are on about the 37th day of over 100 and I'm not going out for any longer than needed!
Cooler today and only 99 currently !

[dickb46]

cleaning the battery connections is a really cheap/inexpensive/easy test but i'd not recommend a wire brush, the wire brush cuts clean into the terminal and leaves the bad part on the surface, I'd get a blade cutting cleaner.

[dickb46]

and as you are getting power to the solenoid then don't worry about the (distractor relay) I mentioned.

[Triton]

Dickb46, Do you recall what/how byou corrected your problem with the intermittent no start you mentioned earlier in the thread?
Morich,
The 11 sec video I made sounds like click thump buzz buzz buzz buzz then nothing.
Tomorrow I’ll connect the jumper cables as you instructed. The truck battery is only 11 months old and has 650 CCA. Hopefully it will turn it over. I’ll figure out how I can replace the starter but really hope it’s a last resort.
Fingers crossed.

[dickb46]

Triton, yes it was the starter relay I mentioned in post #22.
I took it to NAPA and they matched it.

[Triton]

Ok I was able to get the jumper cables connected from the starter to the truck. Again no luck. Accidentally made a pretty good spark though. Is that telling me the starter or solenoid is probably bad? If they still make them and I can find one it looks like it’s around $425.
Stater relay under the bed? I really only have one access under the bed approximately 18”x24”. I recently had it up to lube the Pacbrake and I didn’t see anything on a plate except the Pacbrake.
Dickb46, you said it was passenger side front of engine? I have an access panel on the step and in the closet. I think the closet one will access the front of the engine.
Perhaps I need to stop trying to guess and do the easy stuff first. Time to get dirty and skinned knuckles.
If my test indicates no turn at the starter with the jumper straight to the starter, I’m guessing there’s no reason to look for the relay or change the batteries at this point but go straight to starter replacement. I’ll call FL and see if they have one.
Keep the comments and suggestions coming fellas. I need to get this rig rolling.

[dickb46]

Well,it was a thought, my coach is 4 years older than yours which I'm sure accounts for the difference.

[Triton]

So I'm still leaning toward a bad starter. I reconditioned both batteries and show 13 at the panel.
I still intend to replace them. I tried to get the starter out but my socket is slipping on two bolt heads. I got one out.
I have an expensive FL tech scheduled for Thursday. Hopefully he'll be able to pinpoint the problem and if it's the starter, help me get it loose. I can pull it and get the new one in. More to follow as I know it.

[Morich]

No real info on the difference in the two RV as we get so little info on the chassis parts. But there are times when we get into confusion on names of parts which really do almost the same things but we name them different in different uses?
Relay, solenoid, or contactor are all names for something that does the same thing but in different places. They are all parts that let us use small wire to run from the point where we control them to a "switch" that closes big contacts for the big wire/cables like starter cables.
Easy to see that we can't run starter cables up in to the steering column, so we run little wires to the ignition switch and let the solenoid connect the big starter cables to the starter!
What the difference in the two RV "might" is the way some starters have the solenoid build on the side and others use a solenoid located away form the starter.
So DickB46 may have a solenoid (AKA relay?) under the bed but a few years later they may have changed and the solenoid is now built on the starter!
One of those chassis things we get little Winnebago info to know!

[dickb46]

I'm not wanting to toss this thread off topic, but back in the '50's when I was a bit younger a vehicle had a 16-18 gauge wire that ran from the ignition switch to the starter relay.
When powered the starter relay closes a circuit that sent high amperage to the starter solenoid, the solenoid slams the starter gear into the gear on the flywheel and then applies power to the starter motor, hopefully cranking the engine.
If a problem came up the common troubleshooting was "click, relay, clunk solenoid".
IMHO if you are getting a "click" it ain't the solenoid.
I found the relay by following the positive battery cable on it's "journey" to the starter motor.. in May of last year with more than a little help from Morich.
thank you for the help Richard

[Morich]

Originally Posted by dickb46

I'm not wanting to toss this thread off topic, but back in the '50's when I was a bit younger a vehicle had a 16-18 gauge wire that ran from the ignition switch to the starter relay.
When powered the starter relay closes a circuit that sent high amperage to the starter solenoid, the solenoid slams the starter gear into the gear on the flywheel and then applies power to the starter motor, hopefully cranking the engine.
If a problem came up the common troubleshooting was "click, relay, clunk solenoid".
IMHO if you are getting a "click" it ain't the solenoid.
I found the relay by following the positive battery cable on it's "journey" to the starter motor.. in May of last year with more than a little help from Morich.
thank you for the help Richard

Glad to hear it helped a bit!
I think they may have run this one down to the final point when they put a jumper cable on directly at the solenoid and it still didn't turn over. this one has the solenoid built on the side of the starter, so that we have to change the whole thing when either the solenoid or starter are bad.
I really liked the older style that had the solenoid mounted up on the fineder for cars! My brother had a bad solenoid for quite a long time but to avoid spending money he didn't have, he found it worked to just open the hood and use an old pair of channel locks to short around the bad contacts!

But that was okay because he was one of the few who had a car and knowing how to get it to run was a major plus!!

[Don G]

I think you will find that this braided wire is corroded and not allowing power to get from the solenoid to the starter motor. Unfortunately this is part of the starter.

[Triton]

Yep. Definitely the starter. The FL tech diagnosed and removed the old one. One bolt twisted off so that led to more labor costs. I’m ashamed to let you know what the mobile FL tech cost me but let’s just say I hope not to do that again. Anyway after a new $340 stater it fired right up immediately. It barely cranked before it lit off. I like it. Happy now. Thanks fellas for all the help and support.
Now I’m off to the secondary fuel filter change and I have a few questions regarding fuel system pressure and changing procedures. I posted in the general maintenance section if any of you have insight it would be appreciated.
Thanks again for all the no start responses.