No heat, gas or electric, 2005 Winnebago Journey 36G

[mwilson9]

No heat, gas or electric, 2005 Winnebago Journey 36G, AC works fine but the fan doesn’t come on for either heat setting. I disconnected the thermostat and reconnected to see if that helped with no help. Gas is ok on my stove and I have 1/4 tank of LP. Nothing happens on electric heat I am hooked to 30a service. How do I access the actual heater to check it out?
Thanks
Monty

 

[Morich]

I suspect you have two different heat sources. One is the electric heat at the back and the main is the furnace. However these both need the 12 volt DC to work. I suggest first getting the main furnace to work as the less complex wiring?
For that furnace, I am guessing you will have some model of Suburban brand furnace.
I think this will be the correct manual to use but do verify that info!
https://manuals.heartlandowners.org...CE_Service-and-Training-Manual-11-05-2015.pdf

Don't skip over the basics as having the correct info is vital! the model and where to find the label, for instance on page 3. Maybe you have an SF-35 or is it SF40? When you get to different points of the troubleshooting or looking for connections, you need to know which page to follow!

Also it gives how to install or remove the furnace. I would assume no need to remove but it tells how the cover fits!

There is a ton of good info there and it may seem silly to read it all, but try not to skip anything important!
One last item, that is a first for me is how the air has to flow through. There is a small round vent for incoming air that goes through the burner, sucks fumes out and goes out the exhaust vent!
If there is not a screen , etc. to keep wasps out, that round hole looks like home to mud daubers, etc.. One of the most common problem when the sail switch doesn't let the furnace light is because there is a nest built on the switch or in the tube and it restricts airflow.
If your furnace is not getting 12VDc correctly, the sail switch is maybe not the problem but there is one pretty easy way to verify that path is open if we have a vacuum on hand.
Blow air in or try to suck it out and see if that airs goes to the other end of the in/out vents!
Often we will hear the blower come on but the fire not light. That is when the blower is trying but not enough air can move! Just a hint for future?
I screen my vents!

Good luck !

 

[BCam]

Do you have a "basement" air conditioning system? It's actually a heat pump and supplies A/C and heat. Assuming you do and your A/C works, the basic system works and your 30A service should be OK since the heat mode is essentially the A/C running in reverse.

Coleman's service manuals are available online:

https://www.google.com/search?q=col...gBEAEYFJIHBDEwLjigB8y7AQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

If you have trouble matching your model, they're all pretty much the same except for duct locations. 6535 and 6536 are the most common. As with all troubleshooting, try not to skip around, but follow the steps.

If, by electric heat, you're referring to a plug in heater, you're dealing with a 120V power outlet issue that can be anything from a defective outlet, a tripped breaker or GFCI or you're heater wattage is too high.

 

[Morich]

Above from BobC is absolutely right! Funny how different ideas can be when we read the same thing!
So some more info on what is meant will be needed!
When speaking of electric heat, do you mean the furnace/AC built in the rear or do you mean plugging in a portable electric heater?
My thought was that both propane (front?) heat and the rear need 12VDC to operate.
But if what Bob read, then there would possibly be two different problems. One for 12VDC for controls and a second for 110AC to operate portables!

 

[BCam]

Here's some more info on the basement air:

The operating system is a bit unusual in the heating mode. If the ambient temperature is lower than the set point by 5 degrees F or more, the system will start your LPG furnace until the differential is less than 5 degrees. Then the heat pump will kick on. If, after three cycles (three strikes and you're out), the heat pump is unable to get the temperature in range, the system will "lock out" for 1 hour and 45min before trying again.

This all means that, if you have a 5 degrees or more temperature differential and your LPG furnace isn't working, your heat pump will never come on to deliver heat.

If you set your thermostat to something within the 5 degree window and the heat pump works, you know neither heat pump and thermostat are the problem and you need to deal with your LPG heat issue. I suppose the thermostat could still be the issue in not triggering your LPG system but you can't tell if your LPG system isn't working.

This is all documented on page 4 of the installation and operating manual. If there's a problem with the heat pump itself, there are troubleshooting guides in the service manual:

https://techsupport.pdxrvwholesale.com/technical-service-manuals/coleman-6535a335/

If your model is something different than 6535, that shouldn't be an issue, the difference between models is primarily duct location.

 

[RayIN]

BobC, that's correct. The correct information is in the RVP basement heat pump 6535/6536 service manual pages 7 & 8.

 

[BCam]

BobC, that's correct. The correct information is in the RVP basement heat pump 6535/6536 service manual pages 7 & 8.

Your link doesn't work. I was quoting from the Thermostat manual in my link, which states 1 hr 45 min lock out instead of a 2 hr lock out in the heat pump service manual.

 

[RayIN]

Sorry about the "forbidden" screwup. I'll try again: https://bryantrv.com/docs2/docs/rvp/6535heatpump.pdf
Obviously there is a 15 minute window there, I suppose to account for lack of accuracy.

 

[Morich]

Is it correct that we would expect them to have the simple Suburban furnace as well as the heat pump? That is what the drawings show they have.
I find that is a pretty simple item with li9ttle of the small points to trip us up when we look for trouble.
I did not jump to the hard parts when it appears to me, that it was some of the simple parts like getting the power to the controls.
That may have been a step too far and we don't actually know what problem they have but if they are not getting 12Volts to the controls, I would put off looking at other problems like lockouts until I found what was wrong with the control power.

They mention working on the thermostat and they may know it is the control. But that is where we get lost on what problem they are having and what they may already have done??
They may have it fixed and we never know!

 

[BCam]

I agree with Morich, the first step is to get the Suburban furnace working. I'm pretty sure that's the source of the heat pump problem.

 

[mwilson9]

First off i want to say thanks for your input, especially Bob and Richard. Here is what i found when using the info you sent me. 1st, the heat, specifically the Elec heat will not come on, even when making sure the temp was within 5 degrees. The fan is supposed to come on before the heat starts. That is not happening. I took a picture of the thermostat and the test i performed. 1st, the fuse is good. 2nd, There is 12V to and through the fuse. 3rd,According to the schematics you gave me access to, There is supposed to be 12V on the blue wire for the gas heat and there isn't. 4th, just as information, there is 12V at the red and red-w. There is 12V to both of the gray wires. There is not any significant voltage on any other wires except the black wire and it only has 12V when the AC fan is running. I'm not sure what all that means except the thermostat could need replacing. I hate to tear into the heating units unless i'm sure it's not the thermostat. The bad news is, I can't find a replacement thermostat. The one i have is manufacturer discontinued and I haven't found anything i feel confident that will replace it. I tried sending the manufacturer a Query about it but have not received anything back from them. What i have is a "TrueAir residential Central Heating & Air Conditioning", "Coleman Mach". 2005 Winnebago Journey 36G,. Any suggestions.

 

[bigb56]

First off i want to say thanks for your input, especially Bob and Richard. Here is what i found when using the info you sent me. 1st, the heat, specifically the Elec heat will not come on, even when making sure the temp was within 5 degrees. The fan is supposed to come on before the heat starts. That is not happening. I took a picture of the thermostat and the test i performed. 1st, the fuse is good. 2nd, There is 12V to and through the fuse. 3rd,According to the schematics you gave me access to, There is supposed to be 12V on the blue wire for the gas heat and there isn't. 4th, just as information, there is 12V at the red and red-w. There is 12V to both of the gray wires. There is not any significant voltage on any other wires except the black wire and it only has 12V when the AC fan is running. I'm not sure what all that means except the thermostat could need replacing. I hate to tear into the heating units unless i'm sure it's not the thermostat. The bad news is, I can't find a replacement thermostat. The one i have is manufacturer discontinued and I haven't found anything i feel confident that will replace it. I tried sending the manufacturer a Query about it but have not received anything back from them. What i have is a "TrueAir residential Central Heating & Air Conditioning", "Coleman Mach". 2005 Winnebago Journey 36G,. Any suggestions.

Do you happen to have the "RV Comfort HP" thermostat by Coleman, with sliding switch to select gas or electric heat?

 

[Morich]

This is a point that can get really difficult if we are not fully plugged in and a bit obsessive about following the trail!
The big problem is getting the right info together and knowing that we are following the correct trail as we have different builders and they use different methods on their drawings.
Big secret is that there IS no one specific way to do drawings and they often vary, even within a single industry! Winnebago does give us drawings for the part of the wiring they add to connect the propane furnace to the thermostat which is then connected to the air unit with heat pump!
But that can leave a big void when we need to find the info for the Suburban propane furnace, the thermostat from a different and yet another company builds the AC/ heat pump!

The picture BigB has posted above is a hint at what can become a major problem if we are not really careful! Take any one of those wires and then decide if it is going to be connected to the same color on the plug it meets if a different person plans and installs each group of wires?

Since we have the Winnebago drawings, I start there on looking how this is wired.
Click this snip to see what I mean.
We can find the furnace fuse and see it starts out on a 14 gauge yellow for 12VDC battery. That leads to the thermostat and furnace plugs and we can see the ground comes in on a 14 white to a plug for thermostat and another for the furnace.


So what color wire did the folks who put the plug on each of those use?
We have to have the drawings they use OR we have to dig the plug out and look at what they did!
We can see if battery and ground get to the plug on the furnace and thermostat but we need to look more before we can say it comes back out where and when it is supposed to do it!
That is where I begin to favor working on the propane furnace first as power goes there, THEN to the thermostat before finally going to the air and heat pump.
If none of the three work, the furnace is where that power first comes from the fuse, so I would want to make sure it gets out of there to the thermostat to make that furnace run.
I would follow the path like this:
Fuse to furnace where we need the drawing for the furnace brand and model we have, then to thermostat (different drawing for it!) , back to furnace and finally back to ground.
If I can get the simple one to run, maybe it fixes the really hard one in back and I avoid beating my head on that bigger rock!

 

[BCam]

I was drafting this while Richard was posting his response, so I hope I'm not confusing things. If I am, go with Richard.

1. Richard is the electrical expert so hopefully he'll confirm, but the Blue wire is 12V Negative so there won't be any voltage between it and a ground but there will be continuity. If you show voltage between the Red, 12V+ wire and the Blue (12V-) wire, the 12V supply to your thermostat is good.

2. Depending on its setting and the conditions, the thermostat will switch 12V+ to the other wires (white/black, black, gray, yellow, orange and purple), so you won't necessarily detect voltage at each one.

3. Note that the above wire colors are internal to the thermostat. Three of them, Red, Blue and White, connect to the furnace, through two connectors. If here's a fault in any one of these circuits, the thermostat won't trigger the furnace. Winnebago's wiring details can be found in Winnebago's wiring diatgram AC/Heat/EMS wiring diagram for your MH here:

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/Files/Winnebago/Resources/Diagram/Wiring.htm

There are two parts to the diagram, Without Heat Pump and With Heat Pump. Scroll down to With Heat Pump. Once you're there, scroll down the right hand side until you see the thermostat. Once you're there, you'll see a connector between the thermostat and the wires to the furnace. From the thermostat, you'll see Red, Blue, White, going to JB, JM and JJ going to the furnace. JB, JM, and JJ then go through another connector to the furnace's, Yellow, Blue (2) and Red wires.

JB --> Red (3),
JM --> Yellow (1)
JJ --> Blue (2)
Furnace Blue (4) isn't used.

This is all much simpler when you're looking at the diagram.

4. Here's where we need Richard: Winnebago's Electrical Guide, that documents wire codes & colors, doesn't match these "J" codes and colors, so maybe he can help sort out the code/color details.

Note that any fault will likely occur at a connection or connector. Although possible, a wire break or short in the middle of a run is unlikely.

 

[Morich]

Hi Bob! No problem with added info and I am not a heating/air guy, so lots of missing info there!
I'm not following or finding what you post from the link. I go to the main wiring page to pick the RV but not finding any info on heat pump wiring? Am I missing a curve somewhere, following the wrong RV for that info or where do I go off the rails?
Is this the regular online info or info from a different place??
First guess is this might be two different groups drew up the info and each looking at the plug from two views! One left side having different colors, etc than the right side of the plug?


I'm sure there has to be more info out there but finding it has not been good for me!

 

[Morich]

Looking further this makes some sense for how the wires change at the plug?
If you are showing the 3-pin plug as attached to the thermostat, it would seem to mate up with the connection I found on the Winnebago drawings at their end of the 3-pin plug!

This plug match this plug?

Possible your info is written by the thermostat folks showing their wiring that goes into the wall to then meet Winnebago 3-pin plug with their wire colors?
Any sense to that idea?

 

[Morich]

This may begin to make sense?
Does this look right from your info?

 

[BCam]

Here are the diagrams I used in my post #14 yesterday. The thermostat diagram is from the thermostat manual here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=col...gBEAEYFJIHBDEwLjigB8y7AQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp


The Winnebago wiring diagram is from here:

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/Files/Winnebago/Resources/Diagram/Wiring.htm

If there's any conflict between my translation of wire codes and colors, go by the diagrams:

Thermostat Diagram

Winnebago AC/Heat/EMS Diagram

It would have been much clearer if I'd done this yesterday but I didn't think about screen print, duh.

 

[Morich]

Oh my!
That is a big thing to study as I see some real problems on tracing wiring---assuming those drawings are what they really did?
It looks like there is a conflict on how and what colors to use. The thermostat builder and the furnace builders don't seem to agree and don't build the plug going to their item the same as the other folks.
Click for best view!


Did they really use the same colors for wires but swap the pin locations on the ends?
That really messes with the mind if a person is used to working on a furnace with red, yellow and blue wires and they know what that wire does!
Then when they look at the other end of those wires, they have to find them in a different location on the plug at that end!
I can see where folks might get confused in wiring the thermostat to the furnace if they make the colors and pinout "close" but not the same. Just close enough to really mess with your mind!

So if the OP has changed the thermostat, I could see how easy it might be to miss that tiny detail! Or maybe the new thermostat is built by somebody who has a different idea than either of these builders?

 

[BCam]

Richard, what do you think about the mismatch between the JM, JJ an JB codes and those in Winnebago's list of wire codes and colors?

I don't have a problem with the thermostat, Winnebago and furnace colors not being the same as long as the colors match up correctly in the two connectors and on the thermostat terminal block.

Given a long enough test wire w/alligator clips and a multimeter, one could test continuity between the two connectors.