Lithium Batteries, Victron Orion, Trik-L-Start, and House2Start

[tim myers]

Also posted this in IRV2, but I find I get better answers here.

I recently installed two WattCycle 314AH LiFePO4 batteries into my 2007 Journey. In order to protect my alternator I am using a Victron Orion XS DC 2 DC charger between my Chassis and House batteries. My 2007 Journey came with a Trik-L-Start device that is meant to keep my Chassis battery charged when parked using the current from my Converter to put some juice from my House batteries into my Chassis Batteries. The charging profile from the new Lithium House batteries however may overcharge the LA Chassis batteries, so I should probably disconnect the Trik-L-Start. Thoughts?

The Trik-L-Start was used to charge LA batteries from LA batteries. The inventor of Trik-L-Start also manufactured an Amp-L-Start that was used to charge LA batteries from Lithium batteries. Unfortunately his death was the end of the company.

Now we have House2Start which is similar to Amp-L-Start, albeit more pricey. The Orion XS comes with a jumper connecting the Remote connections L and H, meaning the Orion is on anytime the input voltage is high enough which is only when the alternator is charging the Chassis battery bank raising the Chassis side voltage above the threshold (Adjustable).

The concern floating around out there is that the House2Start could raise the input voltage on the Orion high enough to start trying to charge the House batteries, which could set up a loop of the House charging the Chassis while the Chassis is charging the House. I am not sure what damage could be done, but it doesn't sound like a desirable situation. Again thoughts?

Some have said to simply connect an ignition switch input to the H terminal, others have suggested adding a remote switch to the L-H terminal to turn the Orion off, and still some others have said just turn it off with your phone via Bluetooth. The other side of the camp has suggested installing a defeat switch in the yellow wire from the House2Start disconnecting the 12 V from the house bank. I am not sure how disconnecting the House2Start helps though.

I may do some testing while the Trik-L-Start is still connected to see if connecting to shore power the voltage enough to start the charging loop, and will let you know what I find.

Of course all if this is a concern over a devise that only allows 2.3 Amps of charge current.

Has anyone else faced this challenge, and if so what did you do? I did submit a question to the House2Start support and will let you know what they tell me.

 

[GMorgan3002]

I have a 2002 Journey, converted to LiFePO4. My setup was very similar to yours. I installed on Orion DC 2 DC charger as well. I left the Trik-L-Start in place and installed a diode block, see video here - Trik-L-Start mod. It's been well over a year. Haven't had any issues, worked well for me.

 

[tim myers]

This thread received more attention on the IRV2 site so more info there, in short I had a conversation with the owner (Brad) of House2Start. The real concern is that the Lithium batteries can potentially raise the voltage on the Chassis side of the Orion to allow power to pass from the chassis bank to the house bank which could drain the chassis bank. I removed the jumper between L and H, and used the +12V wire that was originally connected to my BIM to power terminal H. Terminal H must see >4 VDC to turn on. Anything less and the Orion is in the Off state. This means the Orion is only in the on state when the engine is running.

I then disabled the Engine Shutdown Detection function. So, in this configuration the Trik-L-Start is able to provide some current to keep the Chassis bank charged up. He even told me there was no reason to upgrade to the House2Start if my Trik-L-Start is working. I am happy with the final install, and now have 628 AH of battery.

 

[ernieh]

As long as your Orion is switched, the TLS shouldn't cause any issues.

 

[tim myers]

Correct, the issue was when the TKS was at a high voltage and the Orion was allowed to be on via the jumper. Took me a minute or two to get my arms around that.

 

[House2Start]

Just to add to the information Tim provided:

The Victron DC-DC is factory set to use a voltage sensing algorithm for turning on the charger. This feature simplifies installation but can cause other issues, especially when other chargers are present OR if the vehicle has a smart alternator.

The Victron turn on voltage default is > 13.3V. Any chassis battery charger that can raise the voltage over 13.3V will activate the Orion. If the charger is shored powered, then you end up charging the house batteries as well through the DCDC. But if the charger is house-battery powered, then a charging loop is created and unexpected behavior can result, possible discharged batteries, so best to avoid. The Victron voltage sensing algorithm can be disabled in the app and the remote terminal wired to the vehicle engine-on / D+ signal. An ignition controlled solenoid on the DCDC input is another solution, for folks that want hard-disconnect the Orion.

The Victron algorithm shut-down voltage default is < 13.10V. Smart alternators have variable output 12.5-15V, and this can be low enough for the Victron DC-DC to turn off even when the engine is running. The Victron manual covers alternative solutions, the recommended / most reliable is wiring the remote terminal to the engine-on signal.

-brad