LiFePO4 Upgrade for a 2016 Itasca Navion

[dkc-WO]

Lots of discussion about upgrading to Lifepo4 batteries, lot of it seems contradictory. I am thinking of 2 100AH Lion Energy ut1300 BT. (my agm's probably need replacement so why not just go to Lithium). I do not have solar and do not do a lot of boondocking, but I do some for short periods of time, 3 days.
Has anyone used Lion Energy batteries and what do you think of them?
According to specs, the 2016 Itasca Navion on the 2015 Mercedes chassis has a smart alternator. Do I really need a DC to DC charger? What brands/models are recommended.
I understand that if one is installed the battery boost switch will no longer work without a lot of wiring mods, while I would like it to work I want to stay away from a lot of mods like that so I guess I can live without it.
I have a trik-l-start, I would like to continue to have my alternator charging my batteries while I am driving. If you don't have you alternator charging batteries while you are driving how do you charge up your batteries after you have been without hookups for 3 days are maybe going to another campsite where you also will not have hookups for a couple of days?
The Lion Energy batteries have a built in blue tooth BMS, is there any reason to install a Victron BMS or any other hardware BMS?
Is there any reason to upgrade my inverter at this time? My use of inverter is minimal when I am camping, maybe to charge my phones and run micro for 5 min and as I said I do not use solar.
My converter was replaced in 2021, so it could be lithium compatible, I need to check this.

Basically, I want to do the upgrade without a lot of fancy wiring mods, you know just follow the install instructions, keep it simple. I am thinking I need the batteries, a DC to DC charger and maybe a new converter. My understanding is the trik-l-start will continue to function. Will the battery disconnect switch still continue to work? What else do I need?

I am actually not going to do the upgrade myself, but I want to select components and not pay an rv tech to do a lot of wiring mods that are not necessary, plus I don't trust the rv techs around here to do that sort of thing without screwing something else up.

 

[Morich]

One of the reasons the info you may read seem such a mess is that it DOES take a good deal of planning to get where you want to go and that planning really requires a lot of understanding the basics of not only what you want to end with but also what you have when starting.
Some parts of what you have said may indicate there is a not a good understanding of what you have now! Put that together with so many different ways to get to what we may each want and it can become a real trek!
I have not convered any RV to lithium because it never came around to fit our needs at the time.
One point to start to clear a bit of confusion may help as a starter.
You mention Trik-l-start and charging the batteries after camping but those are not really too close to the same project. Trik-l is to let come of the charge from coach batteries go to the chassis battery as a way to get both groups charged from one source.
But when mentioning charging coach as you drive to another campsite, that is where you may want to reconsider what might seem "fancy mods" as many feel it is a simple way to deal with a potential problem. It is true that some situations can leave the engine alternator exposed to damage if something is not done. Lithium batteries have a big advantage in that they can be discharged much deeper than lead acid and they also can be recharged much quicker. Good points but that can create a problem, if we don't build around it.
A lithium that has been discharged quite a bit can take in a lot of current over any given period. Much more current than many alternators are built to provide. Drawing too much current for too long may overheat and burn out the alternator!
So the solution may seem fancy but one simple way to avoid this alternator overheating is to put a switch in the wiring that controls chassis and coach connecting together as you drive. You don't charge the coach batteries as you drive but you also avoid burning out the alternator! But you DO maintain the option of using the coach to "jump start" the chassis by flipping the switch to connect both when needed!
Not very fancy to add a simple toggle switch in the wire LR that controls that connection!
But that is one of the more simple decisions to be made when planning this mod. Lots and lots of small details that each person needs to fuly understand before falling into any of the traps. Lots of different ways with lots of different results!
More options, more features are often like most things. The more we are willing to do and more we spend may get more features but at some point we have to decide how much is enough, not only in money but time, effort, and decisions we need to make to get it right for what we each want.
I've never got into lithium in RV , even though I worked with them for years. I find we liked having unlimited lights and power as well as running water, so we were very relieved when we moved out of the "roughing it" stages of camping!
No one firm answer for what is correct as there are lots of different options! No single plan is right for all and that is where much of the confusion comes in!

 

[RV_Lee]

If it really has a "smart alternator" hook one of the batteries up, then start the engine, open the battery app and see how many volts are going to it, if its 14 I guess you are fine. If not install a dc-to-dc

Dont overpay for the batteries, they're all made in china, probably the same factories. Do your research, one 300AH may fit. Check out Epoch, LiTime and Vatrer

 

[Morich]

Smart alternator is a newer term to me, so for quick looik, I went to Copliot and got this:

 

[dkc-WO]

One of the reasons the info you may read seem such a mess is that it DOES take a good deal of planning to get where you want to go and that planning really requires a lot of understanding the basics of not only what you want to end with but also what you have when starting.
Some parts of what you have said may indicate there is a not a good understanding of what you have now! Put that together with so many different ways to get to what we may each want and it can become a real trek!
I have not convered any RV to lithium because it never came around to fit our needs at the time.
One point to start to clear a bit of confusion may help as a starter.
You mention Trik-l-start and charging the batteries after camping but those are not really too close to the same project. Trik-l is to let come of the charge from coach batteries go to the chassis battery as a way to get both groups charged from one source.
But when mentioning charging coach as you drive to another campsite, that is where you may want to reconsider what might seem "fancy mods" as many feel it is a simple way to deal with a potential problem. It is true that some situations can leave the engine alternator exposed to damage if something is not done. Lithium batteries have a big advantage in that they can be discharged much deeper than lead acid and they also can be recharged much quicker. Good points but that can create a problem, if we don't build around it.
A lithium that has been discharged quite a bit can take in a lot of current over any given period. Much more current than many alternators are built to provide. Drawing too much current for too long may overheat and burn out the alternator!
So the solution may seem fancy but one simple way to avoid this alternator overheating is to put a switch in the wiring that controls chassis and coach connecting together as you drive. You don't charge the coach batteries as you drive but you also avoid burning out the alternator! But you DO maintain the option of using the coach to "jump start" the chassis by flipping the switch to connect both when needed!
Not very fancy to add a simple toggle switch in the wire LR that controls that connection!
But that is one of the more simple decisions to be made when planning this mod. Lots and lots of small details that each person needs to fuly understand before falling into any of the traps. Lots of different ways with lots of different results!
More options, more features are often like most things. The more we are willing to do and more we spend may get more features but at some point we have to decide how much is enough, not only in money but time, effort, and decisions we need to make to get it right for what we each want.
I've never got into lithium in RV , even though I worked with them for years. I find we liked having unlimited lights and power as well as running water, so we were very relieved when we moved out of the "roughing it" stages of camping!
No one firm answer for what is correct as there are lots of different options! No single plan is right for all and that is where much of the confusion comes in!

Sorry, it was late and I misspoke. I do realize the trik-l-start charges chassis battery when plugged into shore power. I also realize that alternator charges house batteries when driving. A dc to dc charger is supposed to deal with the problem of the alternator overheating. Another option is an alternator converter which is what I think winnebago/Lichtstinn RV installs if you go to them for a lithium upgrade. From what I have read this is just an LI-BIM. Which some say also works if your Lifepo4 batteries are not more than 100 amps. The alternator convertor will preserve the boost switch on the dashboard. So why would I want to do the mod that you suggest? I am not an expert but not everyone who has an RV is an expert in electrical stuff, I don't think that means that I should not convert to Lithium. In fact, I can go to an RV service center and just say, hey convert me to lithium, don't need to know anything to do that. It is hard to understand all the "details" when there is so much contradiction. I came to this forum for some advice and help so that I can get a better understanding of what I actually might NEED for a lithium conversion rather than relying on an RV dealer

 

[Morich]

Yes, no problem with what you had posted, but just saying it is a trek and finding what you want for your uses may vary somewhat from what others have found suits them. It' s a slow process at times and asking questions is a really good way to avoid some of the mistakes others have made.

 

[dkc-WO]

If it really has a "smart alternator" hook one of the batteries up, then start the engine, open the battery app and see how many volts are going to it, if its 14 I guess you are fine. If not install a dc-to-dc

Dont overpay for the batteries, they're all made in china, probably the same factories. Do your research, one 300AH may fit. Check out Epoch, LiTime and Vatrer

It is a "smart alternator" according to Winnebago and Mercedes but there is not battery app. Lion Energy batteries are engineered, assembled and tested in Utah. They are working on a 100% American supply chain and I like that idea. I originally considered this MFG because you can buy their batteries at Costco. I will check out the batteries on your list, lead time and quality are very important but so is price. Thank you for your input

 

[creativepart]

There are plenty of folks that have done this install on mid-teens View/Navions. So there’s plenty of info on YouTube and the View/Navion Facebook Group.

The main thing you’re going to need is to get an upgraded Converter with a Lithium charging profile. Your current Converter doesn’t have this capability. This is really a must have.

Your alternator is not “Lithium smart” but that may not be an issue. That’s another thing to consider as you gather more info. There is concern about overheating your alternator because Lithium batteries can demand too much power because their chemistry is different. That’s the main concern but there are various opinions and various approaches to dealing with this.

There are pluses and minuses in adding a DC2DC charger and based on your usage you really may not need one. People that need a D2D charger are generally boondockers. They spend days off grid and deplete their batteries and want to quickly recharge as they drive to another off grid location. Folks that just go between sites with power don’t really need to add a D2D charger. They usually are leaving a campsite with a fairly charged battery and going another site with shore power.

Instead of two 100ah batteries you might consider one 300ah battery. I know many V/N owners have gone this route. There are such batteries out there that can fit your under step battery box.

It’s important to be aware that the internet is full of information about installing Lithium batteries that doesn’t apply to your Sprinter based RV. So, other people’s experience doesn’t always line up with what you need. Plus there are some folks out there who will tell you what you need to do that have zero experience with any of this.

For instance, I’ve completed this upgrade on my previous RV. Including installing an D2D charger and Amp-L-Start. So, I could tell you all about completing this on a 2017 Adventurer Class A, but the alternator, converter, charging controllers and battery box are very different on your Sprinter. Which is why it’s important to find specific answers for mid-teens Sprinter RVs.

Lastly, some of the process for doing this upgrade has changed over the last few years so, the more current the info about your specific RV the better.

Here’s one YouTuber that has made a video on completing this on your RV. Keep in mind not everything done on the video may not be what you need so find other voices and gather more info.

 

[creativepart]

Here’s another video with another point of view- however this video applies to a much newer RV and your wiring will not be the same.

 

[creativepart]

Here’s a link to the largest View/Navion Facebook Group. Even if you don’t use Facebook, joining FB to join these Group pages will be super helpful for you:

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[RV_Lee]

There are plenty of folks that have done this install on mid-teens View/Navions. So there’s plenty of info on YouTube and the View/Navion Facebook Group.

The main thing you’re going to need is to get an upgraded Converter with a Lithium charging profile. Your current Converter doesn’t have this capability. This is really a must have.

Your alternator is not “Lithium smart” but that may not be an issue. That’s another thing to consider as you gather more info. There is concern about overheating your alternator because Lithium batteries can demand too much power because their chemistry is different. That’s the main concern but there are various opinions and various approaches to dealing with this.

There are pluses and minuses in adding a DC2DC charger and based on your usage you really may not need one. People that need a D2D charger are generally boondockers. They spend days off grid and deplete their batteries and want to quickly recharge as they drive to another off grid location. Folks that just go between sites with power don’t really need to add a D2D charger. They usually are leaving a campsite with a fairly charged battery and going another site with shore power.

Instead of two 100ah batteries you might consider one 300ah battery. I know many V/N owners have gone this route. There are such batteries out there that can fit your under step battery box.

It’s important to be aware that the internet is full of information about installing Lithium batteries that doesn’t apply to your Sprinter based RV. So, other people’s experience doesn’t always line up with what you need. Plus there are some folks out there who will tell you what you need to do that have zero experience with any of this.

For instance, I’ve completed this upgrade on my previous RV. Including installing an D2D charger and Amp-L-Start. So, I could tell you all about completing this on a 2017 Adventurer Class A, but the alternator, converter, charging controllers and battery box are very different on your Sprinter. Which is why it’s important to find specific answers for mid-teens Sprinter RVs.

Lastly, some of the process for doing this upgrade has changed over the last few years so, the more current the info about your specific RV the better.

Here’s one YouTuber that has made a video on completing this on your RV. Keep in mind not everything done on the video may not be what you need so find other voices and gather more info.

This is the battery I'd be going with, I looked up the lion, its old, 2016 technology, no app. No app means no way to know what the charge percentage is and you'll need to wire in a shunt.

The alternator theory is this: lead acids only want 13 volts, so your alternator turns on and off as needed to charge them. When a lithium is added they require 14 volts, the alternator never turns off and can overheat. You can add a dc to dc or a BIM to get around that. DC to DC is the better option and they have different amp settings, from 20 amps to 80. 30 amp is what most use and with no solar you'll want it.

 

[creativepart]

This is the battery I'd be going with, I looked up the lion, its old, 2016 technology, no app. No app means no way to know what the charge percentage is and you'll need to wire in a shunt.

The alternator theory is this: lead acids only want 13 volts, so your alternator turns on and off as needed to charge them. When a lithium is added they require 14 volts, the alternator never turns off and can overheat. You can add a dc to dc or a BIM to get around that. DC to DC is the better option and they have different amp settings, from 20 amps to 80. 30 amp is what most use and with no solar you'll want it.

Thing is… the Sprinter has different alternator charging/isolating equipment than your typical Ford chassis RV.

And the problem with the alternator actually is that, unlike lead acid batteries that increase internal resistance as they reach full charge, Lithium batteries will accept more and more power due to having much less resistance in the battery. And it’s this that can burn out the alternator. Standard, even smart, alternators are designed around the way lead acid batteries charge. But this problem isn’t as likely with smaller battery banks and driving with batteries that are not deeply discharged.

I’m not saying the alternator charging doesn’t need to be considered at all, just that what works on a Ford F53 chassis isn’t necessarily the way to go on a 2016 Sprinter chassis. And Mercedes makes changes to this system so it can be model year specific. It’s not like a Ford with a BIM that’s been used for a dozen years.

 

[RV_Lee]

Thing is… the Sprinter has different alternator charging/isolating equipment than your typical Ford chassis RV.

And the problem with the alternator actually is that, unlike lead acid batteries that increase internal resistance as they reach full charge, Lithium batteries will accept more and more power due to having much less resistance in the battery. And it’s this that can burn out the alternator. Standard, even smart, alternators are designed around the way lead acid batteries charge. But this problem isn’t as likely with smaller battery banks and driving with batteries that are not deeply discharged.

I’m not saying the alternator charging doesn’t need to be considered at all, just that what works on a Ford F53 chassis isn’t necessarily the way to go on a 2016 Sprinter chassis. And Mercedes makes changes to this system so it can be model year specific. It’s not like a Ford with a BIM that’s been used for a dozen years.

Hence why I said hook up the new lithium battery (with an app!) and watch whats going on once the engine is started

Right below the 49% here will show amps

 

[creativepart]

His Mercedes Sprinter alternator will be putting out something like 14.2+ volts. not the 21.9v that yours shows on the app. Your's is showing zero amps output even at 49% SOC. Which is unexpected.

The Sprinter Mastervolt ChargeMate Pro system is somewhat different on his 2016 Navion (likely on a 2015 Sprinter chassis) making it difficult to tell him what's best for his situation.

Here's a group of posts on the FB View/Navion Group where people discuss doing this upgrade on a 2026 V/N. It should help with research and planning on this project. (You may have to join the Group to read they posts - it might be private)

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[Morich]

I have little to add but looking at that display the voltage of 21.9 seems to jump out at me if it is anywhere close to feeding any equipment! Likely some details on how and where they are getting that reading but I sure would not want to let it get connected to my starter for a jump start! It might jump straight out in the street?
But that is where lots of the confusion may come in when different groups have different ways of using terms. Voltage of 20 + may be common to them but not to most automotive folks!

 

[hoosierrun-WO]

I have experience with 200 amphour lithium batteries used as an upgrade to AGM house batteries. My chassis is a 2016 Mercedes Sprinter 3.0 turbo diesel with a 220 amp alternator. The charging connection from the chassis to the house is a 200 amp solenoid with an IRD to insure the chassis battery voltage does not drop too low when the house batteries demand charging amps. The bottom line here is that you will not overheat and damage your Mercedes alternator. It is not a smart alternator on a 2016, 3.0. Basically the vehicle's voltage regulator targets the starter battery's voltage and attemps to bring it to full charge. It is only looking at the lowest voltage in the system and ignores anything higher (that is what a voltage regulator does). Current from the alternator is regulated. It will never overheat the alternator unless there is a failure in the regulator. The biggest problem with keeping the solenoid is that the lithium batteries will never be completely charged. Therefore you must have a house charger that has a lithium profile to get those units to 14.4 to balance the cells. For only 200 AH lithiums, don't worry about the alternator. I ran 8 years like that with no problems.

 

[LTMrvup]

Lots of discussion about upgrading to Lifepo4 batteries, lot of it seems contradictory. I am thinking of 2 100AH Lion Energy ut1300 BT. (my agm's probably need replacement so why not just go to Lithium). I do not have solar and do not do a lot of boondocking, but I do some for short periods of time, 3 days.
Has anyone used Lion Energy batteries and what do you think of them?
According to specs, the 2016 Itasca Navion on the 2015 Mercedes chassis has a smart alternator. Do I really need a DC to DC charger? What brands/models are recommended.
I understand that if one is installed the battery boost switch will no longer work without a lot of wiring mods, while I would like it to work I want to stay away from a lot of mods like that so I guess I can live without it.
I have a trik-l-start, I would like to continue to have my alternator charging my batteries while I am driving. If you don't have you alternator charging batteries while you are driving how do you charge up your batteries after you have been without hookups for 3 days are maybe going to another campsite where you also will not have hookups for a couple of days?
The Lion Energy batteries have a built in blue tooth BMS, is there any reason to install a Victron BMS or any other hardware BMS?
Is there any reason to upgrade my inverter at this time? My use of inverter is minimal when I am camping, maybe to charge my phones and run micro for 5 min and as I said I do not use solar.
My converter was replaced in 2021, so it could be lithium compatible, I need to check this.

Basically, I want to do the upgrade without a lot of fancy wiring mods, you know just follow the install instructions, keep it simple. I am thinking I need the batteries, a DC to DC charger and maybe a new converter. My understanding is the trik-l-start will continue to function. Will the battery disconnect switch still continue to work? What else do I need?

I am actually not going to do the upgrade myself, but I want to select components and not pay an rv tech to do a lot of wiring mods that are not necessary, plus I don't trust the rv techs around here to do that sort of thing without screwing something else up.

2018 Winnebago View J. I have four Costco Lionenergy lithium ion batteries 105ah I I installed myself 3-1/2 years ago. I also wired the main panel to my Victron Multiplus 3K inverter/charger with aux builtin trickle charger. I chose not add DC-DC controller. I also installed a Victron battery monitor BMV-712 and Cerbo-GX comms hub. A year ago I added a Heat Pump by Turbro Greenland and now I can boondock with AC or heat overnight. AC average useage is approx. 450wh.

 

[Keith_6a]

I just had a single Epoch 300AH heated, bluetooth battery installed in our 2021 View 24d. I do believe you'll need a new converter (ours was a Xantrex inverter, had a Li profile) and may need to look into your solar controller profile, if you have one. That 300AH takes far less space than the 2x group 31 AGM batteries.
Anyway, I really like the way the Epoch is working out and also like having the ability to charge below freezing.

 

[Bnystrom]

Here's what I've learned based on my own upgrade project.

• I haven't heard anything negative about Lion Energy batteries, other than that they're expensive. Perhaps Costco's price makes them competitive.
  • I don't know how they can have "a 100% American supply chain" given that they're using cells made in China, like everyone else. More than likely, their BMS and case are made there, too. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just the reality of the current market. US engineering and assembly should result in high-quality products.
• There is no need to add an external BMS to a battery that has an internal BMS. I think you're confusing this with a "shunt", which is used to monitor the current flowing in and out of a battery.
  • If the batteries you're considering have a Bluetooth monitoring app that's reasonably comprehensive, you really don't need a shunt, but it may be more accurate. I find the app for my SFK batteries to be more than good enough.
  • I agree with the others who suggested installing a single 200-300Ah battery. SOK makes a really nice 206Ah battery at a reasonable price. SFK has an excellent 315Ah battery, built here in the USA.
  • The battery box will accommodate a pair of 200Ah batteries and it's even possible to squeeze in a pair of 300Ah SFK batteries. There's a video on their website that shows this. It all depends on how much power you want to have available. I'll warn you, it can be addictive!
• There are two issues related to the alternator when you switch to LiFePO batteries.
  • The alternator output voltage - typically ~14.1v - is too low to fully charge the battery. However, it will charge it to over 90%.
  • The current draw of the battery may be high enough to cause the alternator to overheat, but it depends on the battery capacity and the maximum charging current it can accept.
  • Both of these issues can be fixed by installing a DC-DC charger. That said, a DC-Dc charger is not typically necessary for LiFePO installations of 200Ah or less. Above that, I wouldn't take the chance of going without one.
• Installing a DC-DC charger requires some new wiring, but it's not particularly complex (see the diagram).
  • Essentially, it bypasses the boost solenoid, which is disabled by removing the trigger lead, so you don't have both systems trying to charge the batteries.
  • This disables the "Battery Boost" function, but it can be re-enabled by simply installing a switch in the trigger lead. If you need to use the Battery Boost, turn on the switch. Otherwise, leave it off. The wiring for this is very simple.
  • The D+ trigger lead for the charger can be connected to the "Elec Step Ignition" breaker in the passenger's seat pedestal.
• There's no need to upgrade your inverter unless you plan on powering high-draw devices, which you indicated is not the case.
  • With only 200Ah and a small inverter, you won't be able to run the A/C, but with a bigger inverter and higher battery capacity, you can. This is nice to have, but adds considerable cost and complexity.
• If your new converter is lithium-compatible, great. If not, check with the manufacturer to see if they offer an add-on compatibility module for it. Worst case, it will only be capable of charging your batteries to ~85%.
• Yes, your battery disconnect will continue to work. I'm not familiar with Trik-L-Start wiring, so I can't comment on that.

 

[rvlife_68ea522cde4d2]

I just had a single Epoch 300AH heated, bluetooth battery installed in our 2021 View 24d. I do believe you'll need a new converter (ours was a Xantrex inverter, had a Li profile) and may need to look into your solar controller profile, if you have one. That 300AH takes far less space than the 2x group 31 AGM batteries.
Anyway, I really like the way the Epoch is working out and also like having the ability to charge below freezing.

Keith, where did you place the battery? That wouldn't fit in the existing lead acid Group 31 battery tray would it?