Intermittent Starter 2004 Journey 39K

[jefflbi]

When I first go to start the engine, the starter will turn for a few seconds then stops. After that when I turn the key I get nothing. Batteries are fully charged and I have the same voltage reading throughout the chassis. This just started happening since my last trip in May. I did notice that with the ignition turned on, there is a whining sound coming from the starter.

But now an update.......... I went out and turned the ignition to the on position, then went back to the starter and determined the whining sound was not the starter but possibly the fuel pump......... and the sound stopped about about 20 seconds of me being under the RV. I went back to the drivers seat, turned the key and the RV started.............

Any thoughts would be appreciated.........
TIA

 

[be happy]

First off I am about as far away from a mechanic as possible. I did however have a similar problem with my 07 Meridian this year. It seemed I would turn the key the starter would try a work. After two or three times it would turn over.

Even though my engine batteries showed full charge it seemed to have nothing to do with cranking amps. I ended up getting two new engine batteries and the starting problem was solved.

 

[jefflbi]

First off I am about as far away from a mechanic as possible. I did however have a similar problem with my 07 Meridian this year. It seemed I would turn the key the starter would try a work. After two or three times it would turn over.

Even though my engine batteries showed full charge it seemed to have nothing to do with cranking amps. I ended up getting two new engine batteries and the starting problem was solved.

Thanks for the reply. But my batteries are good, just a little over 2 yrs old. And I have the option of using my coach batteries to start the engine and when my issue is happening, the coach batteries don't do a thing either. I'm sure my issue is a connection somewhere in the starting system, I just don't know where to start looking.

 

[Morich]

Some basics to help make sure we are thinking along the same line?

The key is just sending a signal through various parts that make sure you are really ready to start. Newer engines have lots more of this sort of thing and check park brake set, in neutral and lots more. But once the signal is passed to the starter solenoid, that 12volt signal makes a coil in the solenoid pull contacts closed.

The solenoid is often built as part of the starter. A big metal lump on the side where the cables connect?
There will be a small wire that carries the signal down to the starter. One can check to see that gets power when somebody turns the key. That is step one. If no signal, the solenoid does nothing!

Step two is the signal makes the big contacts in the solenoid close. You can often hear or feel them click! But once they close, they have to be good, clean contacts to make the connection. Signal getting to the small contact but no click or movement. Solenoid seems bad!
Good signal, click but still no movement may mean the contacts in the solenoid are bad?? Or the contacts can be good, power gets to the starter motor but it is a bad motor?
While down there, the big battery cable should always have at least 12volts on it! Maybe dirty cables?
But if there is good battery on one big post of the solenoid, a way to test the contacts is easy.
Be carefull when under there and stay clear of things that move!!
But if you have good 12volt and use some metal tool to short across to the other big post, that puts power directly to the starter motor and it should turn if the starter motor is good! Use something that you don't mind a burned nick in it!

Some pictures of typical solenoid and some ideas for checking but what you have may look a little different, some four wire, some three wires!
https://www.quora.com/How-can-you-tell-if-the-starter-or-the-solenoid-is-out

But keep in ming the most common problem is dirt and corrosion on connections!

 

[jefflbi]

Well, I think I found my issue. I contacted my remote tech guy in Delaware, and I can't recommend this guy enough. He has walked me through several issues I've had while on the road, and only because of his help I was able to get home to where I could address the issues properly. On Facebook his page is RVDiagnostic................. anyway he asked me if the N symbol was on for the transmission gear. I went out to the RV and put the key in the ignition and turned it to the on position and damn if the N symbol wasn't flickering back and forth from an asterisk symbol. When the N was steady and not flickering, I turned the key and the RV started as designed. He said the transmission ECM needs to be able to communicate to the engine to let it know it's a starting position. If that's not happening then the starter will not turn. He said that inside the transmission ECM cover there are several connections that can become loose over time from all the vibrations. So my plan today is to check those connections.

 

[Morich]

Sounds spot on! That is part of that "stuff" that has to happen on the newer RV and it has to happen BEFORE the signal is sent to the solenoid. You turn the key as asking for something to happen, then there are different chains of items that give "permission" to do what you asked!

Almost like when a kid is sent out to play?
Dad says get out of here and go play. Kid has to ask Mom, she asks if he has his shoes on, is it raining, Dad has to say it is not raining and finally, with any luck the kid gets to go play!

In your case, one of those items is saying it's not sure, so everything stops, until it all decides if you can do what you want!

Do we own the machine or does the machine own us?

We finally traded a Ford tow car as it had a problem that they were never able to find. At random times it would not crank and the shops would insist the battery was bad, even though they admitted the battery was good! Something somewhere was not giving permission and three dealers over 6-8 months were never able to find it!

 

[deckape]

While your checking , might want to remove and clean all battery connection at starter and at batteries . The negative will cause you problems even when you read correct voltage . Tighten any grounds to frame also .

 

[jefflbi]

While your checking , might want to remove and clean all battery connection at starter and at batteries . The negative will cause you problems even when you read correct voltage . Tighten any grounds to frame also .

Thanks. All those things were addressed by either me or mobile repair techs prior to me calling my remote tech in Delaware. Always check the simple things first.

 

[jefflbi]

So although I have isolated my issue to the communication between the tcm and the engine, I still have figured out exactly what is causing the transmission gear display to delay what I'll refer to initialization, meaning for the N to be displayed. Yesterday it took at least a full minute for it to appear. This morning it was more like 15 seconds. When I blew out the connections on the TCM as directed, I also sprayed some contact cleaner on them figuring it wouldn't hurt, but in retrospect maybe it did. My remote tech told me to also check all the powers and grounds associated to the circuit. Well I can't figure out how to get to the back of the display up by the dash. I've tried to gently pry it up, but it seems like something is holding it from underneath. The only option I can see is to unscrew the whole side panel. See the pics I've attached......... any ideas??

 

[Morich]

This may be one of th ough things to work around as I'm guessing it is something like the switches we see on RV. They are made to be built quick and one way to speed things it to snap them together.
Have you looked any of the dash switch that have "fingers" on the ends or sides? As they push the switch into place the findger are pressed in to clear the part they are placing them into and then they pop out to press against the back of the surface they are on.
Maybe like this? The blue is the surface where they press them inas the fingers on each side are kind of flexible. Then once the fingers are past the surface, they pop back out to keep it from coming back out of the hole!
Hope that makes some kind of sense??


On switches, if we can get a hand into reach it, we can sometimes squeeze the fingers back flat to get it out?? Lots of times I can't and that means trouble unless I'm willing to tear up the surface or break the findgers on the switch!
I'm betting they are not going to come out very well without a full blown fight!

One thing I might mention without knowing? There are contacts along the trail from the shift gixmos/lever/whatever that tell the other parts which gear you are in. Iknow of times on diffferent vehicles that the contacts/switches that tell the rest which gear you are in can get loose or worn.

Does it seem to change anything if you wiggle the gear shift when looking for the "N" to show up? I have no idea how it gets the info but possible that is part of the TCM inputs and it is not getting the right inputs? Thinking maybe wiggle the shift around to see if it changes?

 

[jefflbi]

Actually I have a friend who is a heavy truck and bus mechanic. He says that's most likely not causing the issue. He says it's most likely a connection issue, either power or ground. He told me to check the fuse connection for the TCM, which happens to be right next to the TCM. He also found a local shop that works on Allison transmissions. If I don't see something obvious today I might stop by this shop and see if they will work on an RV. Transmission is a transmission, right??

 

[Morich]

You are correct on the transmission being the same. What seems to be different at times is the attitude of the folks who do the work. They look at an Rv as being some sort of being from a different planet, at times!
I've found that it can help to take things to a smaller shop and let them know that I will stay around to help them open the hood, get the cover off or any of those small parts if they seem a little worried about that stuff.

And I can kind of relate to their worries as I spent a lot of time working in other people's houses. I once got locked in a guy's garage when I pushed the wrong button. He had built his own controls and the button I pushed to close, would not open it!

 

[jefflbi]

Well I found out what was causing my issue. It was the connection to the back of the gear selector by the drivers seat. There was like 5 extra feet of harness all coiled up and zippy tied that was pulling on the back of the selector and causing an intermittent connection. We adjusted the harness in such a way that it would no longer pull on the back of the selector. Problem resolved!!! Although at some point I should probably think about replacing the gear selector...........

 

[Morich]

VERY GOOD!
That sounds like a really hard thing to get tied down when it can keep changing!
ATTitude is 90% of repair work as it takes grit to keep on butting our heads until the dam gives!!