Hi Friends What did I miss when “un-winterizing?” 1993 Brave 27RQ

Winnie the Bago

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Peterborough area
I winterized Winnie two autumns ago and when I hooked up to hose/city water connection, I had a FLOOD in the water heater area and in the bedroom area!!

It is dried out now, but I do not understand why that happened; I had the water heater on bypass; but I didn't think that would cause the flood affect?? Is there something that I am missing forgetting about un-winterizing and getting the water flowing??

Thanks for any help; I have a campsite booked for 4 days from now.

Tian
 
Water good! Flood bad!
It's a mystery to work out and it can take some study. One big thing to start is finding for pretty sure whether it is a drain or a fresh water supply leak as that can be a big way to cut the places to look!
You may know from what you did and when or you may have to go back and test a few points? Let's start with checking things that are easy to miss.
Drain traps under each sink, shower, etc. are easy to forget to add antifreeze or make sure they are dry. The water can set there and freeze hard enough to break the trap, then a couple cups can run out when weather warms and it thaws. The bath stool can also be a trick that is missed.
To cut the chase, can you sort how where and when the water showed up? a quick thought on when/how it shows may help. Was it a puddle of standing water found after it might have warmed and thawed?
Or was there no water seen, you connected the hose and found water running across the floor?
This will get you some idea of whether to check drains or supply. But if you can tell where the water was found and the situation, it can help. Any chance of telling which direction the water came from? This can change every time we park as the slope of the floor can change but if you have some info like that it can be a real clue--sometimes!

This is the drawing set for both drain lines and supply:
Drain drawings are first and followed by supply!
When unsure if drain or supply problem, a test might help sort the question. I hate to mention putting water back in the floor but it may speed things along! Or you may be able to think of a trap which may have been missed, etc. Test the memory, huh?
But if it MIGHT be a trap, try looking down the drain or run something like a wire down to see if water is now standing in the trap to show it is not cracked or broken?
If each was not drained or antifreeze added, they are suspect if it is that small amount of water standing in the floor. Maybe two cups but that can look like a lot of water when we find in not where it should be!
Any sign of stuff stored under the sink, etc. being wet?


But if we move to it being a supply question, some help on where exactly the water showed and how. right away after turning on the hose? Near any specific item like the stool or vanity?
I added some numbers to help you tell us where you found the water. Near no 1 or more left of 3 sort of info?
leak.jpg

I did add a note about the filter on the end of the water pump as it is a really easy thing to miss and also really easy to freeze! It might be an easy one to just take a look as it can be semi-common to break if we don't empty it! Think clear plastic cup like you get with off the shelf medicine? Screws onto the pump at end. Cracks if you squeeze it too hard by hand, so fragile!
One problem is that they are often installed with the glass hanging down! That seems right to our mind but it also doesn't drain when we drain the lines if not turned upside down so the water runs out! I'm not sure it always gets mentioned in manuals, either!
See if that makes sense and we can begin to sort down closer if needed!
 
Hello Richard,
Thank you so much for the extensive information.
I a relatively new to all of this, and wonder if THIS could have caused the flood: I did not take the bypass off the water heater, and move it into the flow position, before hooking up the hose to the outlet???
 
I winterized Winnie two autumns ago and when I hooked up to hose/city water connection, I had a FLOOD in the water heater area and in the bedroom area!!

It is dried out now, but I do not understand why that happened; I had the water heater on bypass; but I didn't think that would cause the flood affect?? Is there something that I am missing forgetting about un-winterizing and getting the water flowing??

Thanks for any help; I have a campsite booked for 4 days from now.

TianI
I realize this is an elementary question, but when you winterized the unit, did you drain the hot water heater?
 
Leaving the bypass either way should not directly cause a leak or damage. However it is then a question of how well things got drained!
If the leaking shows just as water was turned on and not after water was running into drains, that likely means it is in the supply pipes, rather than drains pipes. Cuts the chase somewhat!
So lets look at what the bypass does? Much like when we bypass a city, it makes a change in the route of water that would normally go into the heater tank and makes it go into a "bypass" that is a short cut around the heater!
That means if we are adding antifreeze to keep the system from freezing, we don't have to add six more gallons to fill the water heater tank!
But there is a downside is we are not alert as that set of valves to make the water go around the tank, will also keep the water already in the tank from draining out when we open drain valves in the supply lines!
This shows the normal water flow as well as bypass route!
bypass.jpg

Blue lines are cold water from hose or fresh tank. It comes in and some goes on to RV or some goes to bypass valve and on to water heater tank. It gets heats and comes out as red line when we open a hot faucet!
But when on bypass, the bypass valve cuts off the route into tank and makes the cold water flow as the orange line to bypass the heater.

There are two ways to keep the water lines from freeze damage. Some drain the lines and others want to fill any lines still holding water with antifreeze!
Rather than add six more gallons of antifreeze to fill the tank, they bypass that tank and only fill lines.

But we have to do something to let the wat in that tank drain out. There is a plug on the front of the tank to remove. If it is not opened, water stays in the tank as well as that short pipe from the bypass valve to the back of the tank. That small line is far more likely to freeze and break than the actual tank as it is smaller but things like that are hard to figure as it depends on how cold and how long for how much things freeze!

If I read correctly and you get a leak BEFORE taking the bypass off, that likely means it is not the heater and that is good! With bypass still on, we should not expect water to go to the heater but the lines used while on bypass!
Unfortunately that still leaves a lot of places to chase, just less likely to be the heater.
No guarantee on that if the heater was not drained but somewhat less likely?

I might try looking closely at different points that you can get to and see, like the water pump and back of the water heat if you can. Do this before turning on more water to cut the amount of flooding!
You may still be able to see where water has been leaking as it can leave mineral traces or show it has been wet.

then if you find suspect spots or see damage, Repair what is found and then it can be good to have a helper to turn on the water just slowly while the other person watches all around for any signs of leaks at that spot or others which may be hiding.

The idea of turning the water on just a little bit is to hope that the lines fill with water and no leaks, so it stops running.
OR if there are still leaks, you notice a small spray, rather than a raging river!

Much depends on how the winter was where you had the RV!
 
Hi again,

I will say that I do have memory challenges...AND I would have sworn that the water heater was drained two falls ago during winterizing. Also, 'elementary' questions are apt, when it's all new/'rocket science' to me!

So today I thought I would just check the water heater; took out the bolt/plug and quite a lot of water came out!? Not sure how that would have gotten in there; when the bypass has remained on? Perhaps I forgot it two seasons ago, and because I didn't use the water last summer, I didn't realize. Anyway the plug was still in; that's a bad sign, right? With my deductive reasoning, if water flowed out, and the bypass was still on, then that water has been in there, two long cold winters?!

So ya, the area under the fridge, where the water heater is, was quite wet; and the water flowed freely (under the carpet) back through the bedroom area; outside it was seen to be flowing out at back wheel-well. (and yes, the hose was foolishly turned on full blast, for the raging river effect!)

I so appreciate your guidance and support; perhaps we can take it one step at a time; no time pressure, as I canceled the campground visit, for now.

Tian
 
A few small points may explain the water still in the tank?
The drain is often not down fully on the bottom and in a tank with rounded sides, so that there is some water left, even when drained. But that amount left is not likely to break the tank in a rounded bottom, kind of like the better birdbaths that can be left out.
The water that expands when freezing is pushed up as easier than pushing out sideways to break the metal of the tank!
But it can look like a lot of water if we park so that the water collects on the side where the plug is setting??Maybe not more water that entered but just remains after dumping that looked like a lot?
Hard to tell from drawings that show plumbing but not inside things like frig, but is there a space of any type where you can get a look at the back of the water heater?
leak.jpg

Any practical way to pull a drawer or open a cabinet to get a look at the back of the water heater and where that bypass valves set? About where number 3 is on this drawing?
Looking at the back, there is an elbow fitting where the cold water would go into the tank. Fittings tend to be made a bit different than the lines and slightly more brittle! They tend to break sooner than the lines, so more suspect.
bypass.jpg

See the el marked where the blue cold goes into the tank and the bypass valve? That area sounds like a good place for water to have frozen, maybe at that el?

the big trick for finding it is whether they left a way to get a look and maybe some way to work on that bypass valve if ever needed. It would be nice to think they may have left openings or some small piece of panel to remove to get access?
Maybe wishful thinking but look at the edges of any cabinet panel that seem to be right inside the heater.
Looking carefully at the edges of a panel, do you see any raw edge showing, so that a small piece of the back might be teased off the frame without tearing the whole cabinet apart?
Hard to explain but what I hope to find is a panel that has the sides, top and bottom built and then they almost press fit the back in and fasten with a few small staples!
those staples are often easy to tease out of the frame and pull the back forward and out without tearing the top or sides off first.
But I also have to admit that may be a hope and prayer to avoid totally removing the water heater from the outside!

First is checking to see if you can get a look to tell I'm even close to right on where the break might be!

My theories can be super hard to drive down the road!! Water has a sneaky way to move around under the cabinets and come out five feet away before we see it!
 
Well apparently pics are worth 10,000 words here?! Not quite how to use this app yet; clearly! And I wanted to show you the layout. I can access the back of the water heater; as you can see. The carpeted area is beneath the bed; not sure what to turn in terms of the ring/valves there. Also I am confused about how the two water systems (hookup and onboard tank) interact?
 
Actually lots of good info and I'm never too worried about getting too much!
So some thoughts that show up!
One of the problems with water and leaks is that it is hard to tell old water marks from new ones if we can't actually feel the spot!
But for info? The pump and that area looks good, no signs of water but some info on what and how it works may help for later. For the age, etc. it looks pretty good!
pump area.jpg

Good stuff to know! Water normally comes from the tank, through the filter and pump when the valve handle is aligned with that tubing! Then it goes to a tee and splits to other parts of the RV like blue line. Then when wanting to fill lines with antifreeze, turn the handle up to align with the suction tube I marked in green.
I think that is a plastic cap to remove and then stick the tube down in a jug of antifreeze. That lets antifreeze be sucked in when you turn the pump on and go to each faucet, stool, etc. that uses water. I tend to go to the one closer to the pump and open it until I see the pink antifreeze come through, then close that and go to the next. Each time, I also let some pink (half cup?) run down into the trap where there should be water standing as a way to protect that water from freeze.

The label is a good place to find what to replace the pump if ever needed!
Shurflow brand is common but there are different models!
A test to see it actually is going to suck is to stick your finger over the tube end and feel it sucks when pump is on! See that crimp in the tube where it comes off the pump? That "might" be enough to stop flow and you may want to cut that part off and reattach to avoid crimping or maybe it is no problem if you are aware and find the pump doesn't suck your finger! Maybe a popcycle stick taped to keep it straight until redone?

Hint to avoid future when reopening RV? When done sucking anti in, turn the knob and put the stopper back or you are likely to have trouble getting water right when you reopen. Harder to figure out if we wait three months so I do it NOW!
Don't forget to do the stool valve and fitting for that line!

This area looks good with no leaks but they have left a couple items to roll around and make noise?
Not totally sure of the next picture other than they are drains for each line.
drains for line.jpg

I think you are meant to pull up or twist that ring to open a line that goes down through to under the RV! Rings are flimsy handles but they may also indicate which way the valve is set and show water flows past here instead of draining! I think simply turning is all that is needed???
They look like they are sealed down to the floor but I think there will be tube going straight down and out. this lets water out before winter but needs to be closed when adding antifreeze or it also goes on the ground!
Open to drain then close to use antifreeze!

On to the ugly at the heater!
Lots of signs it has leaked now or other times is the big question! Signs like feeling it wet are more sure! I think there has been work here before and some has been changed. Some of the white stuff that looks like spray paint is something added that I don't know about but looks like somebody has been here before?
This lets you decide if water goes in the heater or bypasses. It is somewhat standard to let the handle show which way the water flow. Not always but kinda/sorta standard!
water heat bypass.jpg

Is that darker stain to the right of where the cold goes into the bottom showing it is new and not totally dried yet or just different because it has been soaked more often?
This looked like a real suspect to turn a little water on to look for a spray where the dark stain or other points.

I think I see a check valve as a white item where the hot would come out of the tank? A check valve is a one way thing that should only let water come out. That stops hot water from coming out of the heater, cooling and then going back in to make the heater work more! If you have the heater running and don't get hot water, this valve can stick closed and stop water flow. Not a big frequent thing but happens?

I might also see a white mineral deposit on the fitting just behind the bypass valve? That looks like an oozing leak has been dripping there for quite a while ---or maybe now?
Cleaning the minerals off and retighten that fitting might be a good plan for maybe someday? As a way to avoid trouble, it may be that the handle for the cutoff is stiff and turning it puts stress on that fitting. Maybe check for crack at that point? Try to avoid turning the whole thing when moving the handle? People and plastic can work the same as they get older. Give them a bit more gentle care!

Last item I see is a guess! I may see two black rubber hoses at the bottom. That makes me think of radiator hoses that bring water from the engine radiator back and pass it through near the fresh water tank. This is a feature that some have It adds to cooling the engine but also lets some heater transfer to the fresh water heater. Saves some propane but you can also fin it nice to arrive after a long drive and already have hot water.
IF that is what you have, it is called "motoraid" and may be an added options/feature! I like them but they are pretty scarce on newer RV!
Maybe feel these hoses after motor gets warm to see if they are heater hoses?

Usually we want to turn the pump on only when we have no pressure water from the hose. It isn't a crisis to have both on except it tends to make the pump work when not needed. I tend to only turn it on as I need water when not connected and then turn it off as a way to avoid floods or running down batteries if something fails.
But one bigger reason is the nasty habit they have of coming on in the middle of the night if the pressure creeps down while I am sleeping. It tends to scare me to death!
There is a pressure setting gizmo at the end of the pump but things are rarely 100% dependable!

Whew! I stop now for our brains to rest!
 
I realize this is an elementary question, but when you winterized the unit, did you drain the hot water heater?
Thanks for your reply Pointyears (curious about your screen name?!😉)

I will say that I do have memory challenges...AND I would have sworn that the water heater was drained two falls ago during winterizing. Also, 'elementary' questions are apt, when it's all new/'rocket science' to me!

So today I thought I would just check the water heater; took out the bolt/plug and quite a lot of water came out!? Not sure how that would have gotten in there; when the bypass has remained on? Perhaps I forgot it two seasons ago, and because I didn't use the water last summer, I didn't realize. Anyway the plug was still in; that's a bad sign, right? With my deductive reasoning, if water flowed out, and the bypass was still on, then that water has been in there, two long cold winters?!
 
Thanks for your reply Pointyears (curious about your screen name?!😉)

I will say that I do have memory challenges...AND I would have sworn that the water heater was drained two falls ago during winterizing. Also, 'elementary' questions are apt, when it's all new/'rocket science' to me!

So today I thought I would just check the water heater; took out the bolt/plug and quite a lot of water came out!? Not sure how that would have gotten in there; when the bypass has remained on? Perhaps I forgot it two seasons ago, and because I didn't use the water last summer, I didn't realize. Anyway the plug was still in; that's a bad sign, right? With my deductive reasoning, if water flowed out, and the bypass was still on, then that water has been in there, two long cold winters?!
Sounds like having a checklist would be helpful for you. Having the plug in isn't necessarily a bad thing; I put mine back in after finishing winterizing to keep out any crawlies that might want to climb in there.
 
One way to find water in a tank that you thought you drained?
It may just be as simple as the slope of the ground where drained versus where it sets when you find the water!
One of the problems with finding leaks in RV is the way water may run in a different direction when we move the RV!
The water may not have all run out the plug and then the slope changed and now the water is against the plug and comes out?
I also favor draining the tank and then putting the plug back in to keep spiders, etc. out.

You had asked about the pump or hose and how they relate? More classy art work, right?
water flow.jpg

There are two ways to get water into the tank so expect one or the other? Usually not both? Gravity fill is a port on the RV side where you can stick a hose to let water just run in to fill the tank. Gravity fills and then there is likely a hose connection to use city water pressure straight from the hose without using the tank.

Other RV have a selector valve near where you screw the hose on a hose fitting at the side. Usually labeled fill or normal or something like that to indicate using water without it going to the tank. To the tank or bypass the tank?

So if you have pressure water, you can leave the pump off and just use the city water pressure.
No city water and you want to use what is stored in the tank, you don't connect the hose and do turn on the pump when you want water.
At the pump there is a built-in check/one way valve that keeps the city water from going through the pump "backwards" like the red line as that would overflow the tank!
Then if you have that outside hose connection for city water, it has a small plastic disk inside the connection that has a spring to press it closed to keep the pressure from the pump running making water go out the in port!

If you look in the place where you connect the hose, you may see a little disk on a spring! Kind of fragile and if it gets cracked or stands on edge, the city water may come out here and run down the RV side!
spring.jpg
 
Thanks again Richard!
Yes I have a gravity-fed water tank AND a disc and spring in the hose connection place.
I also have a handy-man/fix-it guy coming on Sunday to help me with Winnie and her issues!
Of course the water leak is top priority, as I have rebooked my campsite on Georgian bay for next weekend/the Canada Day long weekend, 8 days from today!
Hopefully this fellow can help me find and fix the leaking part.
When I spoke to him today, he wondered about plastic or copper water pipes (and that if it IS the copper ones, ‘going’ if you will, it might require a whole system re-pair/replace, in his opinion), and I said I think that the water connections and hoses are plastic but I did also see copper pipes coming out of the water heater. If I remember what you were saying, it sounded like you think it might not be the water heater itself leaking, but rather connections like the elbow? And if it is the water heater itself, do you think that it could be those copper pipes that burst?
I will reread your earlier messages and I will certainly share your fabulous schematic diagrams, with mark-ups on them, with David; and I’m wondering if you have perhaps a list of things to check, in order, that we can follow to better locate and repair the leak?
Thanks in advance,
Tian
 
Some info to know what you have in plumbing. Most would call it plastic pipe for most part. But plastic has changed with different companies making different types and names. I see Vanguard in one picture!
pb.jpg

I like plastic as the name rather than the stuff I can't spell! Maybe PB is good enough?
But if you wanted a fitting from the hardware, telling them it is a plastic compression fitting and what shape will get it done!
pb 2.jpg

Maybe one of the easier things to work on as the fittings have a nut that can be screwed on and tightened with simple tools. An adjustable wrench is a common one as it adjusts to fit s lots of different sizes. Crescent wrenches were a brand so common lots of people just call them by that name!
To repair/replace, we unscrew the nut and pull the tube out. There is likely to be a rubber thing shaped like a cone. WE put the nut on the tube, slide the rubber gizmo on and stick the end into the fitting and tighten it to compress the rubber to seal.
Main hazard may be that they can unscrew and leak or we can use too much muscle and strip the threads. Tighten until it squeeks!
but they flex and are less likely to break than metal!
The tank is metal and there is a connection at the back but I might not expect the tank to break as it is an odd shape that tends to let ice slide up when it expands, rather than press so hard on the walls it breaks.
Just a guess but think of the way lots of bird baths don't break and the ice pressure goes up instead of out to break?
There is a white plastic looking item right next to the tank? I think that is a type of plastic which is more brittle and I might guess it is cracked?? Check valve which only lets water flow in one direction?
A couple black hoses that may be radiator hoses and those are not at all likely to break.
Also one black item that I think is a cover for a bundle of electrical wires.

Turned on slow and looking for water to tell where and then I'm guessing the repair is not going to need any high tech crimpers or soldering like copper pipe might need!

Be aware that I am GUESSING! It could be the tank but I see no real reason to say that yet?? If he looks at the picture, he can see what he might need. If it is the check valve, the only big thing to know is which way to turn it as water should only go through in one direction and that needs to be correct! They usually have an arrow on them to tell which direction the water goes through!
You want the cold to go IN at the bottom , heat up and come OUT at the top!
But there has been lots of water around there at different times and finding where is going to take some looking!

Keep a towel handy!
Good luck is always nice, too! So I'll wish up a bunch for you!
 

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