Gas vs diesel

[Doug Sage]

I currently have a 34' Bounder on the 1999 Ford V-10 chassis. It has just turned 40,000 miles. I live in Oregon and have taken it into the Colorado Rockies and to Alaska. It handles just fine to me. I do not get pushed around by the trucks and it has enough power to handle the mountains. I typically tow a Suzuki Grand Vitara which weighs about 3,200 pounds. Over the years I have had what I would consider the usual problems with a motorhome. I have had to replace the refrigerator circuit board for example. I have also had a couple of major issues however. Just after the warranty expired, naturally, the motor blew out a spark plug and the head had to be replaced. Thank heavens for an extended warranty! Anyway, now I have had the catalytic converter break open. The cost to replace that is about $2,600. I don't know why it would go bad this soon. I have not used fuel additives other than Sta-Bil in the winter.

I am now looking at a new Itasca Suncruiser 38J on the 24,000 pound Workhorse chassis. Workhorse advertises that their engine is good for 200,000 miles. It has nearly 100 more horsepower than my current Bounder. The tires are larger, etc. Since we don't like the noise or smell of diesel we had decided to stay with the gas rig. Now we are wondering if this is a good decision or not. Maybe the gas rigs are just not up to large motorhome use. The problem is that it will cost me about $60,000 more to get a comparably equipped diesel with a similar floorplan. I felt that I was at the top of my budget to get the Suncruiser. I know that you get air suspension, exhaust brakes and more torque with the diesel but is it really worth the extra money? Can the current Workhorse chassis handle a 38' motorhome? I would really like to stay with the gas rig but don't want to spend all that money only to have to trade for a diesel in a year or two because of the gas motor. Of course I could replace the motor and transmission several times for the extra $60,000. What do you experts out there think about this?

Doug

 

[Doug Sage]

I currently have a 34' Bounder on the 1999 Ford V-10 chassis. It has just turned 40,000 miles. I live in Oregon and have taken it into the Colorado Rockies and to Alaska. It handles just fine to me. I do not get pushed around by the trucks and it has enough power to handle the mountains. I typically tow a Suzuki Grand Vitara which weighs about 3,200 pounds. Over the years I have had what I would consider the usual problems with a motorhome. I have had to replace the refrigerator circuit board for example. I have also had a couple of major issues however. Just after the warranty expired, naturally, the motor blew out a spark plug and the head had to be replaced. Thank heavens for an extended warranty! Anyway, now I have had the catalytic converter break open. The cost to replace that is about $2,600. I don't know why it would go bad this soon. I have not used fuel additives other than Sta-Bil in the winter.

I am now looking at a new Itasca Suncruiser 38J on the 24,000 pound Workhorse chassis. Workhorse advertises that their engine is good for 200,000 miles. It has nearly 100 more horsepower than my current Bounder. The tires are larger, etc. Since we don't like the noise or smell of diesel we had decided to stay with the gas rig. Now we are wondering if this is a good decision or not. Maybe the gas rigs are just not up to large motorhome use. The problem is that it will cost me about $60,000 more to get a comparably equipped diesel with a similar floorplan. I felt that I was at the top of my budget to get the Suncruiser. I know that you get air suspension, exhaust brakes and more torque with the diesel but is it really worth the extra money? Can the current Workhorse chassis handle a 38' motorhome? I would really like to stay with the gas rig but don't want to spend all that money only to have to trade for a diesel in a year or two because of the gas motor. Of course I could replace the motor and transmission several times for the extra $60,000. What do you experts out there think about this?

Doug

 

[omnc954]

40,000 miles in 7 on a 7yr old couch isnt a lot of miles driven pre year. So to justy the cost difference of a gas couch vs a diesel one is a no brainer to me... Buy the Gas........

 

[Doug Sage]

I overlooked one important point in my first posting. I am planning on starting fulltimine in September 2007. This means the annual mileage will probably increase.

 

[DonavonP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug Sage:

I am now looking at a new Itasca Suncruiser 38J on the 24,000 pound Workhorse chassis. Workhorse advertises that their engine is good for 200,000 miles. It has nearly 100 more horsepower than my current Bounder. The tires are larger, etc. Since we don't like the noise or smell of diesel we had decided to stay with the gas rig. Now we are wondering if this is a good decision or not. Maybe the gas rigs are just not up to large motorhome use. The problem is that it will cost me about $60,000 more to get a comparably equipped diesel with a similar floorplan. I felt that I was at the top of my budget to get the Suncruiser. I know that you get air suspension, exhaust brakes and more torque with the diesel but is it really worth the extra money? Can the current Workhorse chassis handle a 38' motorhome? I would really like to stay with the gas rig but don't want to spend all that money only to have to trade for a diesel in a year or two because of the gas motor. Of course I could replace the motor and transmission several times for the extra $60,000. What do you experts out there think about this?

Doug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Doug, I owned a 1997 diesel pusher with a 230HP Cummins/6 speed Allison on an air ride chassis.
Now I own (below) a gasser.

Here is my opinion of both:

The pusher had a front entry door. It had terrible wind noise that was close to impossible to quiet. Hundreds of guys on the forum took them back for repairs, new doors, new gaskets, reinforcing strips, and nothing worked. So my gasser has a mid entry door, less noise and the door latch squeak repaired with a 1 inch wrap of 3M UHMW tape(good for about 1000 miles - I bought a full roll which is enough for millions of miles

) Very few mid entry diesel pushers.

The pusher had rubber bag air ride. Nice ride but I was looking at 4 new air bags as rubber begins to degrade the day it's made just like tires. Gasser has springs - cheap to replace - wife and I can't feel much difference in ride. Stock shocks etc.

The pusher has it's cooling system in the rear out of the frontal air stream and in the dirt- I didn't like the process of cleaning the various heat exhcangers (radiators, A/C etc). The Winnegago gasser heat exchangers are easy to get at. The front one that collects the bugs is easy to brush off and then spray clean.

The pusher, even though it only had 230HP, had LOTS of Torque and was much easier on the ears and patience when going up and down the rolling hills of South Dakota. The screaming fans of the gasser are real obnoxious but we live with it because we live in the MH more than we drive it around the country. I think I read (DriVer maybe) that the fan noise is being addressed somehow on the 2007 Workhorse chassis.

If I were to trade in my current rig (this won't happen but if), I would go no less than the Workhorse 25.5 and I'd get the biggest motorhome availabe because there are some days when the motorhome you own only sleeps one comfortably

I'd also get one with the inside stick house door like our 37B. At first, my wife and I questioned the sanity of this door, but it is SOOO nice when one of us wants to read or sleep without disturbing the other.

I'd hesitate to own a new 2007 green diesel because of my experience with a VW Jetta diesel TDI. The Germans have built a beautiful,powerful little engine but to get it certified they had to add a
EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) and a vent gas recirculation system that pipes the vent gasses that would normally vent to atmosphere (read collect in your pusher diesel radiator along with dirt) is now sucked back into the INTAKE manifold. The hot, recirculated gasses and the vented oil vapor form a black crud in your INTAKE manifold and slowly choke off the air flow, reduce power, and cause about $ 2000.00 repair JUST to clean out the crud. My guess is this will cost close to $10,000 with a V8 diesel stuck in a motorhome. I hope I'm wrong on this, but I believe the new green diesels are using this same method to satisfy the euphorians.

To me, the cost of fuel, gasoline or diesel, is insignificant.

 

[DriVer-THOR]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug Sage:
I am now looking at a new Itasca Suncruiser 38J on the 24,000 pound Workhorse chassis. Workhorse advertises that their engine is good for 200,000 miles. It has nearly 100 more horsepower than my current Bounder. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Doug, I think you making an excellent choice. The new 6-speed Allison Transmission and the Transmission Grade Brake are some of the new features that you will enjoy on your new Workhorse.

50? wheel cut gives you practically the same steering response as a diesel pusher and you will come to appreciate this agility when negotiating gas stations and other tight spots. On the open road the Stabil-Ride suspension will offer you air like qualities while providing you with a good feel for the road. The anti-roll properties of the 2.5 inch front and rear stabilizer bars add roll stiffness while negotiating road surface irregularities.

The 8.1L engine certainly will provide you with adequate power since it was designed to be a medium duty truck engine. Its long stroke and low rpm operating range provide you with stump pulling power at 3200 RPM. You will find that when pull off the line with a Workhorse most often you will leave most RDP rigs waiting for the turbo to spool up.

Regardless of all the benefits of owning a Workhorse your analysis of cost vs benefit is right on. For the money and the intended use the Workhorse will provide you with the performance that you are hoping to achieve.

Good luck while shopping for your new motorhome. The 38J is one of our favorites and the new front cap on the 2006 Itasca is quite striking.

 

[Tom N]

I own a Suncruiser 38R on the W24 chassis. The 38R (38'11") is one inch longer than the 38J. I have 5800 miles on it and we bought it new, a factory order built with our selected options. Our 27" tv is on the floor the same as the 38J and we like this arrangement.

I also debated between a gas or diesel chassis. Actually my buddy bought a 40AD Horizon from the same dealer as I purchased my 38R and at the same time. We sort of negotiated together on two coaches combining our bargaining power. 9 months later he traded his Horizon on a 2006 Allegro Bus because of numerous problems with the Horizon.

I have had absolutely no handling or power problems with the W24 chassis. I've averaged 7.02mpg, all towing a Honda Civic, since we took possession of the coach. We've had the 38R for 17 months and have made 2 round trips to Florida from Pittsburgh. We cross the Allegheny Mountains and have no power problems towing a Honda Civic through the mountains. I have followed my buddy in his 400ISL Cummins powered coach and I can stay on his back bumper.

I feel we made a sensible and financially prudent decision buying the W24 over a diesel powered coach. As you stated it's $60,000 to move to a diesel, and probably more for a coach comparable to the high end Suncruiser.

We have had many compliments on our coach, mostly because of the diesel look full body paint. More than once I have had a motorhomer tell me, when in line for gas, that I was in the wrong line, there is no diesel fuel at this pump!

One change I would make would be to order the Alcoa aluminum rims ($1566msrp) and drop the front protective clear mask ($1295msrp). A plus is the 2006-2007 W24's come with a 6 speed Allsion transmission. Our 2005 has the 5 speed Allsion but I don't think I would be able to tell the difference when driving. But I would like that 6 speed Allison.

We considered a 38J but we use our patio, under the awning, and we did not like the 3rd slide extending into the patio space.

Feel free to email me at [email protected] if I can be of any help.

 

[Doug Sage]

Will Winnebago sell me a 38J gasser on the Workhorse 25.5 chassis? This would solve my other concern which is the CCC on the W24 is pretty low. I don't see this offered in the specifications.

Doug

 

[Tom N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug Sage:
Will Winnebago sell me a 38J gasser on the Workhorse 25.5 chassis? This would solve my other concern which is the CCC on the W24 is pretty low. I don't see this offered in the specifications.

Doug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Winnebago is not using the W25.5 chassis. THere is not much difference between the W25.5 and the W24. Actually the W24 is a W24.5 when adding the front and rear axle capacities.

The CCC listed on my closet sticker for my 38R is 3239#.

 

[John_Canfield]

I can't add a lot to this thread since our current coach is the only RV we have ever owned. What I like about ours is the low noise level in the coach. Donovan reports lots of wind noise in his former coach but ours is so quiet (with the wind behind us especially) that we can literally whisper to each other and be heard. If we are punching into a head wind, then it is very noisy but I'm not sure the chassis or type of fuel has a lot to do with this.

While on our way up to Alaksa I was absolutely amazed to find a GAS Bounder on our tail while climbing a pretty good grade in Canada. He was at least keeping up with me, or might even have been gaining on me. I know it was a gasser because I looked! I was probably hauling lots more weight than he was (our gross combined weight is about 37,000+) but wow I was impressed with that Bounder's performance.

The other factor not mentioned is when it is time to fuel up. I like having diesel because I like the manuvering room at truck stops (which I always try to use.) I imagine it is a little more difficult to find a good gas station for a big gas rig with a toad.

The front engine chassis' have really been evolving for the better over the past few years making the rear/front choice more difficult.

 

[Doug Sage]

The 38R has two slides whereas the 38J has three slides. The CCC on the 38J is under 2,000 pounds and even as low as 1,400 pounds depending upon options. Adding another 1,500 pounds with the W25.5 would be a big help!

Doug

 

[Tom N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Canfield:
While on our way up to Alaksa I was absolutely amazed to find a GAS Bounder on our tail while climbing a pretty good grade in Canada. He was at least keeping up with me, or might even have been gaining on me. I know it was a gasser because I looked! I was probably hauling lots more weight than he was (our gross combined weight is about 37,000+) but wow I was impressed with that Bounder's performance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll add that a gasser will never keep up to a 400hp turbo equipped diesel at elevations above 5000'.

I'm ~12,000# lighter (with Honda Civic in tow) than John C.

 

[DonavonP]

I know better than to question Tom N's command of the facts so it's really disappointing to know Winnebago is not using the Workhorse 25.5 -

My wife is a Instrument rated, high performance airplane pilot and she knows that a overloaded airplane will not get off the ground. This knowledge does not cross over to earth bound, wheeled vehicles.

 

[Tom N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DonavonP:
I know better than to question Tom N's command of the facts so it's really disappointing to know Winnebago is not using the Workhorse 25.5 -
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't asked Winnebago directly if the W25.5 is an option but I keep checking the coach specs and don't see it. I don't know which manufacturers are using the W25.5. Maybe the Mountain Aire. They're around $200k.

 

[Thudman]

I agree w/Donavon; the third slide adds enough weight (thus subtracts from CCC) to warrant a 25.5 chassis. Unfortunately Tom N, Winnie, in it's wisdom, does not offer a 38R for 2007.

I hope the Marketing Dept reads these forums.

Donavon, what's your wife fly?

Thudman

 

[Tom N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Unfortunately Tom N, Winnie, in it's wisdom, does not offer a 38R for 2007. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even though the 38R was in the 2006 brochure it is my understanding that none were ever made or only a few at the beginning of the model year. I searched the net all year and never found any 2006 38Rs.

 

[Janjanjan]

We have the Adventurer 38G, 2005 on the W24, with CCC of over 3600#. We're not full-timers, but for us this is plenty and we seem to bring everything from home that we own (minus the kitchen sink, of course)

We went with the gasser for a couple of reasons--the price point for similar quality coaches, our dislike of the diesel smell, and most important, our extremely strong desire for a mid-door configuration.

We've been pleased and seem to have adequate power. We are on a western trip right now and so far, the power is adequate. We're coming to some longer grades, and we'll see. But, even if we struggle on a few grades a year, that wouldn't outweigh the original thought process. The full-body paint and classy look of the Adventurer, inside and out gives our coach a quality look that we love.

Of course, we might change our minds in the future, especially if we were to go full-time.

 

[DriVer-THOR]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug Sage:
Adding another 1,500 pounds with the W25.5 would be a big help! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Doug, The W-25.5 isn't going to be available on the Winnebago or Itasca coaches.

 

[Doug Sage]

It's too bad that they don't offer the W25.5 chassis. My understanding is that it is a simple bolt on replacement for the W24. It seems that if the buyer is willing to pay the extra money then Winnebago/Itasca should offer it. It sure would help with the CCC on the large rigs with three or more slides.
Doug

 

[DonavonP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug Sage:
It's too bad that they don't offer the W25.5 chassis. My understanding is that it is a simple bolt on replacement for the W24. It seems that if the buyer is willing to pay the extra money then Winnebago/Itasca should offer it. It sure would help with the CCC on the large rigs with three or more slides.
Doug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with you Doug even though a new MH is way off in the future.

(Thudman - she got her IFR ticket in a Mooney 201 - it was a company plane we owned)