Can you Daisy Chain Surge Guard Power Protector with EMS?

[dkoldman]

Best way to ask this question is to give you context in sequence.

1st thing I bought for my brand new RV was the Surge Guard by Southwire 44270. It has worked great and I am proud of it.

Almost a year later, I have learned that as nice as it is; it is NOT a EMS, does not monitor loads, or show voltage / amps etc., I am looking at the Southwire Surge Guard 34951 model for 50 amps with Bluetooth but it costs $400

To follow where I am going you have to assume I am poorest RV owner in Texas

So here is what I am thinking to help justify this purchase. Suppose I use my existing Surge Guard like I always have, but buy the new EMS 34951 and plug it into the the 44270?

Given, both are rated for 4200 joules protection. If I have large spike wouldn't it destroy the basic $100 - 44270 and save the $400 - 34951? Or is it that if I get hit with say 5,000 joules; it will blow both at the same time?

By now my questions and reason should be simple and I don't come under fire for at least asking. I know the 34951 can protect for surge, but since the surge is destructive to the device, I am wondering if it makes sense to have both anyway? The 34951 can still do all of the other functions to protect the RV, but I would in effect have double protection for electrical spike.

 

[Morich]

This is one where I have to decide how much I want to protect things versus how much it costs to add protection or not.
First step for me was to think about what it costs if I don't, that can be a lot but then what happens and how does the surge protection help me?
If it is a simple thing like miswired connections or some dude running over the power box a few sites down, the surge goes in all directions to all the points it can get to ground and may be my RV.
In that case, it looks for the quickest way to get to ground and that may be the lower rated guard. But that depends on how much surge, too as it may not stop at the first one but take it, the second and the stuff in the RV!
If we could say what the surge was going to be, we could decide but if it is a lightning strike down about 500 feet from your RV, forget it.
I found this bit of info:
1 million joules
The average lightning strike contains about 1 million joules, enough energy to fry the founding father in his boots.

If it can knock a brick chimney off a house or split an oak tree, it has no problem going past a surge protector!

 

[Old Navy-WO]

I would just buy a Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO, and purchase the user replaceable MOV board for $33 when needed. Keep the old Surge Guard as an emergency spare. Seems crazy to buy a $400 device that is essentially disposable.

 

[dkoldman]

I would just buy a Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO, and purchase the user replaceable MOV board for $33 when needed. Keep the old Surge Guard as an emergency spare. Seems crazy to buy a $400 device that is essentially disposable.

It is another discussion why I would prefer the Surge Guard EMS over other options, but we agree that it is extraordinarily pricey option. i.e. what I would gain in bold

• LCD Text Display
• Low (<102V) and High (>136V) Voltage Protection
• Low/High Frequency Protection
• Open Ground Protection
• Open Neutral – Line and Load Side
• High Neutral Current Protection
• Elevated Ground Line Current Protection
• Reverse Polarity
• Designed for Outside Use
• 10-Second Startup Delay

* Bluetooth monitor that goes inside RV

But past that, you state to use the current protector as a spare? Would you not consider using it with your Hughes Watchdog so that maybe it blew before hitting your surge protector thus saving you $33 dollars and potentially in my case saving me $400?

 

[Old Navy-WO]

Hughes "EPO" is their version of EMS, so it also disconnects for high/low voltage, neutral/ground/polarity faults, etc. It also has bluetooth.

But if you prefer Southwire, then get that. I guess if I had a $400 device at risk, I might want to protect it. But a surge protector for your surge protector? Do you buy another $100 device when the old one goes out?

 

[dkoldman]

Hughes "EPO" is their version of EMS, so it also disconnects for high/low voltage, neutral/ground/polarity faults, etc. It also has bluetooth.

But if you prefer Southwire, then get that. I guess if I had a $400 device at risk, I might want to protect it. But a surge protector for your surge protector? Do you buy another $100 device when the old one goes out?

Got it. I had to do a little research and I found this on their website.

https://hughesautoformers.com/product/pwd50-epo/

I will need to study it because it does have some possibilities. I had only heard of Progressive and Southwire and IMO Southwire wins hands down.

In the scenario where I might purchase the Southwire EMS, and if the surge protector would blow and the EMS is still okay, I absolutely would buy another $100 surge protector. If both blew, I might just get the only the EMS (another $400)

Thanks for the info, I will study it.

 

[Wyatt-WO]

Got it. I had to do a little research and I found this on their website.

https://hughesautoformers.com/product/pwd50-epo/

I will need to study it because it does have some possibilities. I had only heard of Progressive and Southwire and IMO Southwire wins hands down.

In the scenario where I might purchase the Southwire EMS, and if the surge protector would blow and the EMS is still okay, I absolutely would buy another $100 surge protector. If both blew, I might just get the only the EMS (another $400)

Thanks for the info, I will study it.

To answer your question about daisy chaining them, we started out with the Southwire, but I wanted the Bluetooth and extra protection from the Hughes. So now we have two. The Southwire stays at home, parked at my home post, and the Hughes is locked in my power bay, and always stays there. So when we’re at home, and only when we’re at home, there are two surge protectors in-line. For the most part, simply because I had nothing to do with the former Southwire, so I just used it.

It works fine, no issues, but overkill I’m sure...

 

[dkoldman]

To answer your question about daisy chaining them, we started out with the Southwire, but I wanted the Bluetooth and extra protection from the Hughes. So now we have two. The Southwire stays at home, parked at my home post, and the Hughes is locked in my power bay, and always stays there. So when we’re at home, and only when we’re at home, there are two surge protectors in-line. For the most part, simply because I had nothing to do with the former Southwire, so I just used it.

It works fine, no issues, but overkill I’m sure...

I just just watched several Watchdog 50 amp EPO videos.

Can I assume that you have a hard wired model? I am looking at portable Southwire 50 amps EMS and now this Watchdog Portable.

Sounds like I would have no issue connecting my existing Surge guard only unit to pedestal and then plugging the Hughes or Southwire EMS into the surge guard that is at the Pedestal?

When you say you like the Hughes for "extra protection" is that extra over the basic surge protectors or are you saying the Hughes had more protection over the Southwire EMS? If so; what protection?

 

[dkoldman]

Hughes "EPO" is their version of EMS, so it also disconnects for high/low voltage, neutral/ground/polarity faults, etc. It also has bluetooth.

But if you prefer Southwire, then get that. I guess if I had a $400 device at risk, I might want to protect it. But a surge protector for your surge protector? Do you buy another $100 device when the old one goes out?

Here are my preliminary findings on Southwire 50 amp EMD vs Hughes 50 amp EMS.

* Hughes Costs is $231 / SW - $365 ( I had to add $50 for SW monitor)
* Hughes Bluetooth is real meaning works with phone / SW makes you purchase a monitor (something about the phone and apps I like)
* Hughes $33 module if surge spike destroys the board/ $$325 for Southwire to replace
* Hughes 4 sec to power on / Southwire 10 secs
* Hughes has 4800 Joules protection / Southwire 4200

* Southwire has load side protection, Hughes did not
* Southwire does not use the Codes for errors
* Southwire has 2 lines screen on the unit to read display
* Southwire has Elevated ground current protection Hughes did not
* Southwire has lifetime Equipment damage warranty, which is basically a guarantee that you will never have to pay for anything damaged inside the RV


I like them both and not sure one over the other. If Southwire did not require a monitor and would work with my phone I would probably buy it hands down. If Hughes had the equipment warranty and errors with brief descriptions vs error codes, I prolly would favor Hughes.

 

[Wyatt-WO]

I just just watched several Watchdog 50 amp EPO videos.


SEE MY RESPONSE IN LINE BELOW...

Can I assume that you have a hard wired model? I am looking at portable Southwire 50 amps EMS and now this Watchdog Portable.

I did NOT nstall a hard wired model. Both units, Southwire and Watchdog are the portable units. I cut the umbilical cord to the coach’s power center, in order to allow for quick disconnect from the post, in case we had to exit a campground quickly—as in a fire. Our coach 120v 30amp cord would have otherwise have to be wound up, back into the power bay before exiting a camp—In a California fire storm, we just would have the luxury of that time. So, I’m effect, it’s SORT OF hardwired, as it’s permanently in the power bay...

Doing that, allows us to keep the surge protector locked in the storage bay.

Sounds like I would have no issue connecting my existing Surge guard only unit to pedestal and then plugging the Hughes or Southwire EMS into the surge guard that is at the Pedestal?

You are correct. It’s redundancy, but it will work. My Southwire kicks in after about 10 seconds, and then I near the Hughes kick in.

When you say you like the Hughes for "extra protection" is that extra over the basic surge protectors or are you saying the Hughes had more protection over the Southwire EMS? If so; what protection?

I like that I can replace the Hughes circuit board, I like the emergency power shut off, which the Southwire might also do, but be more costly to replace.

Bottom line is, they’re both great units, but the Hughes also gives me an app wherein I can see the current and voltage draw on my app, to see where my batteries will be headed, to control usage.

Hope that helps.
See my responses ABOVE IN YOUR POST in-line please..

 

[dkoldman]

I like that I can replace the Hughes circuit board, I like the emergency power shut off, which the Southwire might also do, but be more costly to replace.

The Southwire EMS does auto shutoff for protection. It is unclear to me when it will restart. I know the Hughes will restart once the errant condition is gone. I am beginning to see the Southwire more of insurance. If anything were to ever happen with my downstream electronics the equipment and components are covered.

Bottom line is, they’re both great units, but the Hughes also gives me an app wherein I can see the current and voltage draw on my app, to see where my batteries will be headed, to control usage. Agree, the Southwire has a monitor that connects with bluetooth that does the same. I think you have to within 100 feet.

Hope that helps.
See my responses ABOVE IN YOUR POST in-line please..

Your comments help.

Did you put a 50amp female receptacle on wall of your power bay, or did you just cut the existing hard wired wire in power bay and then add a female and male connector? I think I wish I had that without EMS, I think I would prefer to pull my entire shorecorrd out and only feed what I need under the floor through hole when needed. As it is I have to feed the entire shorecord through the hole to connect to pedestal and then again to roll back up to put bay. Would love to see pictures.

Also, how bright is that white light on the Watchdog face? I am concern that light being on all the time would annoy me after a while if on my pedestal? It seem as if it may be inviting someone to see to come steal?

 

[dkoldman]

This is one where I have to decide how much I want to protect things versus how much it costs to add protection or not.
First step for me was to think about what it costs if I don't, that can be a lot but then what happens and how does the surge protection help me?
If it is a simple thing like miswired connections or some dude running over the power box a few sites down, the surge goes in all directions to all the points it can get to ground and may be my RV.
In that case, it looks for the quickest way to get to ground and that may be the lower rated guard. But that depends on how much surge, too as it may not stop at the first one but take it, the second and the stuff in the RV!
If we could say what the surge was going to be, we could decide but if it is a lightning strike down about 500 feet from your RV, forget it.
I found this bit of info:
1 million joules
The average lightning strike contains about 1 million joules, enough energy to fry the founding father in his boots.

If it can knock a brick chimney off a house or split an oak tree, it has no problem going past a surge protector!

We have a cedar elm in the backyard that got hit by lightning and split in half. Insurance gave us $500 to cut it down, but yours truly bought $70 saw and cut up all of the pieces that were split down to the ground. 20 years later the tree is still going

My out of pocket expenses for 1st year of RV ownership has been lower than my budget. I am thankful for that or maybe I should say I am thankful I was smart enough or lucky enough to have bought a Winnebago?

I am leaning toward the Southwire LMS. It is about $130 more, but everywhere I look they are rated #1. That Equipment guarantee is very significant in my mine. I wish their bluetooth worked with a phone but they have $50 monitor that does the same thing. Additionally I see several of the Watchdogs EMS units on ebay for sale for $175 for "Parts Not working"

My RV is at dealership for my last before warranty expire punch list of repairs. EMS may be next for me

 

[Wyatt-WO]

Your comments help.

Did you put a 50amp female receptacle on wall of your power bay, or did you just cut the existing hard wired wire in power bay and then add a female and male connector? I think I wish I had that without EMS, I think I would prefer to pull my entire shorecorrd out and only feed what I need under the floor through hole when needed. As it is I have to feed the entire shorecord through the hole to connect to pedestal and then again to roll back up to put bay. Would love to see pictures.

Also, how bright is that white light on the Watchdog face? I am concern that light being on all the time would annoy me after a while if on my pedestal? It seem as if it may be inviting someone to see to come steal?

Mine’s a 30 amp, but yes, that’s exactly what I did. Cut the cord in the power bay and added a female and male connector. It makes it easier to wind up the cord, as you no longer have to feed it back into the compartment, just wind it up outside and stick it in.

Like I said, the main reason is if there was a fire and we had to leave camp fast, I could simply disconnect the power at the bay and drive off, leaving the cord behind.

The Watchdog face is bright! You’d probably want to put some black tape over the Face if were to leave it outside.

Most of the mods I have done are in the link in my signature. There’s a picture of this mod there as well.

 

[dkoldman]

I ran across a sale on the Southwire Surge Guard 34951 that included the Bluetooth Monitor. Black Friday on a Tuesday 11/10? oh well; it was great deal

I will stay in bed with Southwire, their new 34951 was ranked #1 everywhere I saw. Akin to why I bought a Winnebago over a Thor; sometimes you have to know what you don't know and go with a iron clad leader and learn why you really didn't spend more money for it later

I don't have the RV now, but I now have to figure out how to install Jet Flo Macerator, and cut my shore power cord; so I may store my portable EMS in the power bay. I will continue to use my Southwire surge protector on power pedestals 1st; to verify all is good; even before connecting to my EMS.

 

[dkoldman]

Mine’s a 30 amp, but yes, that’s exactly what I did. Cut the cord in the power bay and added a female and male connector. It makes it easier to wind up the cord, as you no longer have to feed it back into the compartment, just wind it up outside and stick it in.

Like I said, the main reason is if there was a fire and we had to leave camp fast, I could simply disconnect the power at the bay and drive off, leaving the cord behind.

The Watchdog face is bright! You’d probably want to put some black tape over the Face if were to leave it outside.

Most of the mods I have done are in the link in my signature. There’s a picture of this mod there as well.

You got my respect on the mods

Here is my plan of action to install the Southwire Portable EMS 34951; when it comes.

Versus cutting the existing 50amp shore cord somewhere in the power bay and adding two connectors, I purchased the below 4 ft 50amp cable.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253405319870

It is prewired perfectly for what I need to connect to ATS
It will also give me an extra 2 feet or so. I also purchased one female 50 amp connector. I will put it on the end of shore cord that the Southwire EMS can plug into to be locked in power bay. I could also allow the new 4 ft male end drop through the floor hole and connect my main shore cord to it and put the EMS on pedestal. My existing shore cord is just long enough to reach my pedestal at home when parked forward, but the extra 2 feet may prove priceless.

Note: I bought a female connector with flip up handle versus the knuckle grip because I want it to be easy to push in and out of the floor hole

Again thanks for the idea. I look forward to the day, when I can simply open up compartment, take out hose unroll it and plug to surge guard on pedestal and take other end and feed it through hole to plug into Surge Guard EMS and lock it up. May mount the Monitor Display next to my EC-30 Controller for Genset?

 

[Wyatt-WO]

You got my respect on the mods

Here is my plan of action to install the Southwire Portable EMS 34951; when it comes.

Versus cutting the existing 50amp shore cord somewhere in the power bay and adding two connectors, I purchased the below 4 ft 50amp cable.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253405319870

It is prewired perfectly for what I need to connect to ATS
It will also give me an extra 2 feet or so. I also purchased one female 50 amp connector. I will put it on the end of shore cord that the Southwire EMS can plug into to be locked in power bay. I could also allow the new 4 ft male end drop through the floor hole and connect my main shore cord to it and put the EMS on pedestal. My existing shore cord is just long enough to reach my pedestal at home when parked forward, but the extra 2 feet may prove priceless.

Note: I bought a female connector with flip up handle versus the knuckle grip because I want it to be easy to push in and out of the floor hole

Again thanks for the idea. I look forward to the day, when I can simply open up compartment, take out hose unroll it and plug to surge guard on pedestal and take other end and feed it through hole to plug into Surge Guard EMS and lock it up. May mount the Monitor Display next to my EC-30 Controller for Genset?

Interesting how we all skin a cat differently...Sounds good. BTW, the handle on my plug BARELY gets through the hole in the power bay floor.

 

[dkoldman]

Interesting how we all skin a cat differently...Sounds good. BTW, the handle on my plug BARELY gets through the hole in the power bay floor.

Feeding that heavy 50 amp shore cord male end first and then pulling it back through male end has been something that I would have thought Winnebago Human Factors Engineering would have resolved? I like the concept of being inside the electrical bay; but I think they should have what I plan to do so you have more flexibility with the long shore power cord and the option to easily plug and play protective devices on the fly without having to get into the ATS box.

I don't have RV now so I could not measure the diameter of my hold in the floor but I knew it was at issue for me at times with the male end of my existing without the knuckle grip. Most you see online are all knuckle grip.

I eventually found this one Take care

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RS-501BK-R...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

[Calson]

Surge suppressors only do half the job. Low voltage from the RV source can cause problems as well and what is needed is a "line conditioner" that maintains the voltage and prevents sags as well as spikes. There was mention of the MOV blowing and being able to replace it which sounds good but may not be as all.

The MOV semiconductor is whatis found on cheap surge suppressors and when it blows with a surge then it stops providing any protection and can actuall shift voltage to the ground connection and fry whatever is attached.

The newer the electronic device the more susceptible it is to damage from surges as the spacing between the circuits gets smaller and smaller and so less of surge is needed to blast through the few atoms of silicon. A chip may get damaged and still work so long as the program it runs does not access the damaged section which is why the performance can become erratic and difficult to diagnose.

There is also the option of unplugging from shorepower when there is a good chance of surges or finding another site at an RV campground.
The 30 amp Hughesformer sells for $350 and the 50 amp version sells for $550. Both are a good investment to protect all the devices and appliances that use electronics to operate.

 

[dkoldman]

Surge suppressors only do half the job. Low voltage from the RV source can cause problems as well and what is needed is a "line conditioner" that maintains the voltage and prevents sags as well as spikes. There was mention of the MOV blowing and being able to replace it which sounds good but may not be as all.

The MOV semiconductor is whatis found on cheap surge suppressors and when it blows with a surge then it stops providing any protection and can actuall shift voltage to the ground connection and fry whatever is attached.

Wow this is the 1st I have ever heard of line conditioner being needed for an RV? What is in your RV... Mobile Computer Center for the Pentagon?

I think this is all relative. If any of these things were mission critical, I am sure they would come with the RVs; and in some cases of higher end they do.

A surge protector that does half the job is better than not having one at all. There is a market for low end surge protectors. i.e. 1st thing I bought was a Southwire Surge Guard 44270. I had a lot of things on my mind at the time and a lot of unknowns about what the RV costs may look like. Spending $100 bucks gave me all the protection I needed and I would find it very hard to be critical of anyone that has purchased a Southwire Surge Guard 44270 or similar.

Fast forward 1 year with my warranty about to expire and a wealth of new knowledge I have just spent $400 for what I believe is the ABSOLUTE best and all that I will ever need. A Line Conditioner notwithstanding

What I got from Southwire is that their Surge Guard Portable 34951 is the only protection system to provide not only line side protection, from the pedestal, but also provides protection on the load side. This means that if you have power faults occurring from wiring issues or equipment failures inside of the RV, this system will protect you. Any open neutral issues (50A only which I have) or elevated ground current in the RV will be detected and your RV will be cut off from this in an instant. This unit also protects you from frequency issues.

The Surge Guard Portable 34951 analyzes the pedestal to ensure there are no issues with open ground, open neutral, reverse polarity, or high and low voltage issues. This analysis takes place in 10 seconds, the closest competitor takes 136 seconds to perform a similar function. Note: They don't mention Hughes 4 seconds because they are not in Southwire's view their closest competitor. Frankly, I am in no rush for all of the validation checks as long as it is under 20 secs or so. The Surge Guard Portable 34951 also has a 128 second reset function just in case your air conditioner goes into reset mode.

But what may have sold me more than anything is that the Surge Guard Portable 34951 has a lifetime warranty that includes connected equipment coverage. This mean that if this unit fails to do what it was intended to do and damage occurs to equipment in your RV that Surge Guard will pay for those damages. At the end of the day, I basically paid $400 to ensure that if anything affects or damage any of my equipment inside my RV, I will always have a claim against Southwire Surge Guard as long as it is not insured otherwise.

 

[migali]

Joules are not used as a measurement in Surge Protection

I have spent 25 years in power and UPS protection and have taught classes

for electrical engineers.



The Surge Protection devices using Joules as a measurement doesn't mean much . The only real measurement, per the latest revision of ANSI/UL 1449, is the VPR raiting signifying the rounded-up” average measured limiting voltage of an SPD when the SPD is subjected to the ​

surge produced by a 6 kV, 3 kA 8/20 µs combination waveform generator. The reason some manufacture use joules without the ANSI/UL label is becuase the testing are usually done by 3rd party testing sites and are expensive. There is a lot more then I can explain here but always look for the UL 1449 label on the device. MOVs the main unit of protection in most of these devices.They can only can take a certain number of hits or a large hit before failures.BTW try to collect in the companies that offer "insurance".

After all, the reason we put these devices on our rigs is to protect our hundreds of thousand of dollars.