2004 Winnebago Journey Shore Power Not Charging Coach Batteries

[jefflbi]

We need to think of batteries as somewhat like a pantry where we store food we don't need right now. The AC power feeds AC to the converter which makes DC. That DC is sent out to two different places. One is a path to the batteries, while the other goes to the fuses that are often right on the face of the converter. But there is another path which goes to the batteries! That path to and from the batteries and power will go TO the batteries at the same time as we use what goes to the fuses when we have the cord plugged in and the battey disconnect closed.
View attachment 2457575
When we have no cord power, the converter stops but if the disconnect is closed, we still get power FROM the batteries to work the RV.
The kicker can be when we have power from the cord to the converter and on to the RV, we see everything working but that can sneak up on us if the battery disconnect gets turned off while we are plugged in. The batteries are cut off from charging but the lights, etc. stay on!
I did not draw it in but there is anouther path for safety item like CO and propane detectors that they want to keep alive, even when we turn the disconnect off.
We can think we have power charging the batteries becasue we are plugged in. But if the disconnectis open power stops charge getting TO the batteris, while the safety items still use a small amount of power to kill them!
Not sure how the monitor panels are wired into this as I know they can be misleading and also far more complex and prone to failure or getting out of specs to give nmbers which may not be what we find directly on the battery posts.
Each time we add another connection in the wires, we add one more point to corrode or give us bad answers, so I like to get my voltage readings right on the battery as the part I really want to know about. IF I get different answers at different points, I have to consider there is something wrong.
So if I see my simple meter says one and the monitor another, I tend to trust the simple meter as less prone to problems when I know I put the probe on the post!
I'm not sure where the monitor panels connect. My thought would be that it reads what is at the fuses and that could be from batteries if not plugged or from the converter working when we are plugged in.
Bit of guess on that last part. But if you have no coach batteris installed and get a reading when plugged, that tells us it reads what gets to the fusesand that can be either or the combined reading.
The thing about reading battery voltage is that we are only seeing whatis at teh post. If we are putting power in at that post we see what we are adding, which really doesn't show how full the battery down inside where we can't see might have.

Sometimes called " surface charge" as it is just the reading at the surface!
Somewhat like looking in the hole of a barrel as we are filling it with something thick like syrup. As we are filling the barrel we see the syrup going in and might assume the barrel full! Even after we stop filling, if we look too soon, we may see a stack of syrup that has not spread out yet. Think really thick syrup!! Lead acid batteries work REALLY slow but if we come back in an hour we may find that stack of power has spread out to all the rest of the battery and it may be near empty!
Getting good batteris back in place may clear a lot of things as they are kind of the foundation and used for many of the control and monitoring functions like making the furnace and frig work!
Batteries are so simple but they can actually trick us in lots of small ways!

I don't have a fuse panel on the Inverter but the main fuse block with several 60 and 40 amp fuses is in the same compartment. I'll attach a pic. Nothing on the diagram for the fuse panel says anything about the Inverter or DC power.

 

[BCam]

I'm going to step in here for a minute. I did some searching and it appears that there should/may be a remote panel for the inverter. My apologies if this has already been covered:

Location info from Google AI:

Google Search

Note: Sometimes locations may vary.

 

[jefflbi]

I'm going to step in here for a minute. I did some searching and it appears that there should/may be a remote panel for the inverter. My apologies if this has already been covered:

View attachment 2457596

Location info from Google AI:

Google Search

Note: Sometimes locations may vary.

That panel is on the inside of the coach. It only is activated when house batteries are present and in good condition. Which is why I'm beginning to believe that new batteries might be my answer, or at least part of it.

 

[Morich]

Pictures are always good info!
What I see in the picture is this:

I see the cord brings AC in as marked in yellow with three wires white red and black. That is white neutral and the other are two legs/circuits of 110 each. When working on cord power those the wires are connected to goo out on the bottom (orange)white, red and black to the load center that is maybe under/near the foot of the bed? Got a panel there? Then that power has to come back to the dimentions item as AC in. That lets the coverter or charger, depending onname used, "make" or convert part of the AC to DC. Part of that DC goes to a fuse panel and feeds Inside RV DC things like lights, fans, water pump as well as part of the DC can go to the coach batteries to charge them. Like groceries? We bring them home and eat some and store the rest!

One thing I notice that may be a clue that the transfer switch has been changed from when built?

Notice how the wire colored are uniform black, neutral, and repeated three times red on the two input cables as well as output?
But on your picture we see that pattern as of cable locations gen, cord and out but the generator red and black from generator are reversed! That often says there was a change, possibly a new transfer switch and the person who did it was not really careful! It works but messes with the next guy if he is chasing one leg and the colors suddenly change? It just alerts us that we may not find everything done as it we might expect??
But back to the main point of getting AC power to the charger/converter!
I see it as going from this switch inside to likely a breaker on an inside fuse panel. It looks like it might be near the bed.
Guess say there might be a big main breaker there to handle aLL the incoming AC power for all the RV. That likely is good if things like air, microwave and such work. But is there a smaller breaker that feeds AC power back to the charge equipment?
One of that bunch under the Dimentions is going to be AC in and then there should be a different cable taking DC back to fuses inside!
Check for any signs of breakers for AC and als is there AC getting back all the way to the dimentions? Things have likely been changed , so we may not be able to use the drawings of how it was built if they did not use that info when making changes! ARRGH!!

 

[Morich]

Thanks to BCAm for throwing in! I'm more often than not working on things involved with pumping oil at the current time. That means a guy who has never set foot in the oil patch is trying to give answers to folks who may have just hired on!
It gets tricky when their first question is which road to take to find the site!
I'm very certain, sure, that is not my end of the deal!
Hard enough to find which end of the RV to look for things.

 

[BCam]

Me again. I'm not convinced there's no breaker panel for the inverter like in Morich's circuit drawing #1.

AI says it's at the foot of the bed or inside the bedroom wardrobe cabinet, so it could be hidden:

In a 2004 Winnebago Journey, the inverter breaker panel (often a smaller, brown plastic sub-panel) is typically located at the foot of the bed (on the bed base) or inside the bedroom wardrobe cabinet. [1]
This panel is separate from your main 120V/12V breaker and fuse box, which is usually located near the floor in the hallway, under the refrigerator, or in a lower cabinet. [1, 2, 3]

Google Search

 

[RayIN]

Oh crap!!! That's right, the cable going to the starter is for the chassis batteries! DUH!!! I should have remembered that!! I couldn't see a fuse connection in the compartment where the Invertor is. I'll try to follow the cable from the battery compartment back.

So why isn't the Dimensions panel getting power from the shore power system?? Am I correct in assuming that the panel gets it's power solely from the batteries? Is it possible that my whole problem is that my batteries were drained so far down that the system couldn't charge them?? And that once I get the new batteries installed that everything will be back to normal??

Yes, the inverter/charger must "see" some battery voltage or it will not send a charge to the battery bank. The 14V you mentioned earlier is the standalone battery charger voltage.

 

[Morich]

What I was thinking is the pretty standard build that has the AC come from the input, to the load center where it may/may not have a specific breaker but feeds back to the charge equipment.
Once it gets through the load center, we have to find AC actually getting to the charger of whatever name we use. But since getting into the charger is more difficult, iot seem logical to check the load center was getting power and passing it on to the charging.
That load center is shown here:

Shows located in stationary galley cabinet? Is there any breaker tripped there? That would mean no power to the charging equipment!
But part of the question has to be, if they changed other parts without doin it in astandard way. Did they also change other parts of the plan?
So I have to start at one point and walk through to find where there is anobvious hole in the path!
But it is also semi-common for this feed to be combined with others like the frig. Sometimes the breaker handle doesn't flip fully and it can be tripped but not spotted?
Sometimes we can work our way down the breakers and kind of "feel for one that feels a bit loose?
But we have to find the load center first before looking for the breaker!

 

[Morich]

Got a conflict on infofrom draiwngs and what is shown in owners manul?
This really look slike it is located under the foot of the bed, right? But that is not what the note seems to say.
So the info from the owners manual:

This picture really looks like it is under the end of a bed! That sure looks like a bed spread to me!

 

[Morich]

Whoops! Do over?

 

[jefflbi]

Pictures are always good info!
What I see in the picture is this:
View attachment 2457631
I see the cord brings AC in as marked in yellow with three wires white red and black. That is white neutral and the other are two legs/circuits of 110 each. When working on cord power those the wires are connected to goo out on the bottom (orange)white, red and black to the load center that is maybe under/near the foot of the bed? Got a panel there? Then that power has to come back to the dimentions item as AC in. That lets the coverter or charger, depending onname used, "make" or convert part of the AC to DC. Part of that DC goes to a fuse panel and feeds Inside RV DC things like lights, fans, water pump as well as part of the DC can go to the coach batteries to charge them. Like groceries? We bring them home and eat some and store the rest!

One thing I notice that may be a clue that the transfer switch has been changed from when built?
View attachment 2457642
Notice how the wire colored are uniform black, neutral, and repeated three times red on the two input cables as well as output?
But on your picture we see that pattern as of cable locations gen, cord and out but the generator red and black from generator are reversed! That often says there was a change, possibly a new transfer switch and the person who did it was not really careful! It works but messes with the next guy if he is chasing one leg and the colors suddenly change? It just alerts us that we may not find everything done as it we might expect??
But back to the main point of getting AC power to the charger/converter!
I see it as going from this switch inside to likely a breaker on an inside fuse panel. It looks like it might be near the bed.
Guess say there might be a big main breaker there to handle aLL the incoming AC power for all the RV. That likely is good if things like air, microwave and such work. But is there a smaller breaker that feeds AC power back to the charge equipment?
One of that bunch under the Dimentions is going to be AC in and then there should be a different cable taking DC back to fuses inside!
Check for any signs of breakers for AC and als is there AC getting back all the way to the dimentions? Things have likely been changed , so we may not be able to use the drawings of how it was built if they did not use that info when making changes! ARRGH!!

You are correct about the transfer switch. The original had gone bad a few years ago and I had an electrician friend install the new one. I'm confident in his abilities, but I also realize he might have made a mistake, but he did wire it up as specified in the directions that came with the new switch.

I just went out and took pictures of the breaker panels underneath the bed. I believe in a previous post I said there wasn't a breaker for the charger/inverter. There is, but it is not tripped and I have reset it several times.

 

[Morich]

Making some sense of the pictures and how things might have been changed. On the drawings there are fewer breakerws on the main panel an dth efrig and water heater were wired through a lad shedder panel. But in your picture of the main breaker, I see breakers there for frig and heater! So likely no load shedder as drawn?

But that is not the part in question as what we need to find is where the incoming AC gets to the new combined inverter and charger sytem??

 

[Morich]

With no info on drawings to show where inverter charger is getting the AC to make DC, we are not going to be able to sort things as easily. My thought would be to go into the charge unit and look at what wires bring AC to it. Any booklets or paper for it on hand? Wires may be labeled or not, so paper to show the plan would help on finding what points to check fo AC in. Then assuming it is doing it right, there should be a different set of wires to take the DC to the batteries and rest of the RV to use? Getting pretty far out on the limb for much real confidence!
Any chance you have a model number we could look for wiring info online?
A sudden thought is that some units have a small popout breakeron one end?? Any chance that it is on the end you do not see and might be a matter of pushing it back in? Thinking like a small resetable breaker?

 

[jefflbi]

With no info on drawings to show where inverter charger is getting the AC to make DC, we are not going to be able to sort things as easily. My thought would be to go into the charge unit and look at what wires bring AC to it. Any booklets or paper for it on hand? Wires may be labeled or not, so paper to show the plan would help on finding what points to check fo AC in. Then assuming it is doing it right, there should be a different set of wires to take the DC to the batteries and rest of the RV to use? Getting pretty far out on the limb for much real confidence!
Any chance you have a model number we could look for wiring info online?
A sudden thought is that some units have a small popout breakeron one end?? Any chance that it is on the end you do not see and might be a matter of pushing it back in? Thinking like a small resetable breaker?

The original owner of my RV kept everything he got when he bought it new. Everything was in an Info Case as they called it. I did find the manual for the Dimensions system and have scanned two wiring diagrams. I will attach.............

 

[Morich]

Ok! some info there! But when reading back through the posts, I wonder if we might be going to more trouble than needed? II do not know the dimentions nit at all but there are many times when 12VDC is used to control other thingslike furnace and such. With some of the ideas others have mentioned, it seems like it might be worthwhile to defrer tearing into the Dimentions unit until get a better idea that the problem is in that part.
Seems a bit of odd situation where things were okay as long as plugged into power but no charge to the coach batteries and they are likely dead now. Correct my thinking if it seems wrong!
But If we could get 12VDC power on the coach items, we might avoid digging way deep in things that might be okay and we are just missing some simple point that is needed to make it all come alive???
Thought or suggestion to consider!
If you have a set of jumper cables like used to start a car anywhere handy, would it be practical since both chassis and coach batteries are on shelves near each other, could you find the cable that would usually go on the positive post of the coach battery and use the jumper cable to connect that cable to the positive of the chassis battery group?
My thought is that WHERE and WHICH battery supply is used will not matter as long as the Dimention and coach electrical does get 12VDC power to work any controls or such that might be the problem? Using jumper cables to tie coach to chassis at the battery rack might be far less trouble if that seems doable! Like jump starting a car only we want to jump start the Dimention unit!
Second step, then might be to make sure any control functions at the remote are done to set the Dimention up to do it's job.
Getting down to saying maybe there is NOT a problem with the wiring, breakers or fuses but the coach battery may have died while you were plugged into power. The lights would have stayed on but the battery may have died? This "could" have happened if the dash battery disconnect switch got bumped and let the charger keep putting out the DC--until you unplugged the cord?
Maybe getting 12VDC back to the coach side is the easy answer?
I'm getting kind of nervous about chasing things when we get into having a new transfer switch, a different arrangement on no load shedder and a different charge system that looks like it replaced a small inverter to get bigger inverter power.
That's a lot of mods to figure if there seems a much lower grade problem!
Maybe it jumps up and works if we give it 12VDC coach battery power, even if we are stealing that power from the chassis?

 

[jefflbi]

Ok! some info there! But when reading back through the posts, I wonder if we might be going to more trouble than needed? II do not know the dimentions nit at all but there are many times when 12VDC is used to control other thingslike furnace and such. With some of the ideas others have mentioned, it seems like it might be worthwhile to defrer tearing into the Dimentions unit until get a better idea that the problem is in that part.
Seems a bit of odd situation where things were okay as long as plugged into power but no charge to the coach batteries and they are likely dead now. Correct my thinking if it seems wrong!
But If we could get 12VDC power on the coach items, we might avoid digging way deep in things that might be okay and we are just missing some simple point that is needed to make it all come alive???
Thought or suggestion to consider!
If you have a set of jumper cables like used to start a car anywhere handy, would it be practical since both chassis and coach batteries are on shelves near each other, could you find the cable that would usually go on the positive post of the coach battery and use the jumper cable to connect that cable to the positive of the chassis battery group?
My thought is that WHERE and WHICH battery supply is used will not matter as long as the Dimention and coach electrical does get 12VDC power to work any controls or such that might be the problem? Using jumper cables to tie coach to chassis at the battery rack might be far less trouble if that seems doable! Like jump starting a car only we want to jump start the Dimention unit!
Second step, then might be to make sure any control functions at the remote are done to set the Dimention up to do it's job.
Getting down to saying maybe there is NOT a problem with the wiring, breakers or fuses but the coach battery may have died while you were plugged into power. The lights would have stayed on but the battery may have died? This "could" have happened if the dash battery disconnect switch got bumped and let the charger keep putting out the DC--until you unplugged the cord?
Maybe getting 12VDC back to the coach side is the easy answer?
I'm getting kind of nervous about chasing things when we get into having a new transfer switch, a different arrangement on no load shedder and a different charge system that looks like it replaced a small inverter to get bigger inverter power.
That's a lot of mods to figure if there seems a much lower grade problem!
Maybe it jumps up and works if we give it 12VDC coach battery power, even if we are stealing that power from the chassis?

It's totally possible that I might have hit that Disconnect switch by accident and the batteries drained so far down that they couldn't be recovered. In fact that was the reasoning behind me buying a new bank of batteries, but I chose to go with the Interstate Marine Deep Cycle battery with a 2 yr warranty, and finding three of them has been a freakin Easter Egg Hunt. 2 Tractor Supplies within reasonable distance from where I live and both of them only had 1 of that particular battery............ And I really want 3 matching batteries, but I digress........... Bottom line, maybe the system needs good batteries to function as designed.

But the other point you mentioned about getting power to the panel to make sure the settings are correct. According to the manual, the system automatically detects the voltage in the batteries and charges them automatically. There are not many settings to adjust. Inverter On/Off and how many amps (from 0-25 in increments of 5) to to dedicate to charging the batteries. I'm not really sure what that is for if charging is automatic like the manual says. Maybe that's for when the generator is running??

 

[Morich]

Okay, maybe we can say that in a different way that we are more used to seeing. Older chargers had few levlels of charge. more like on or off, then newer came around to three levels bulk charge if the battery was reall low, then as it got near the float level the amps dropped off and finallyon did enough to keep the battery at ideal or float level.
So now you have partty new charger that indicates it has five levels and that would be good. What we want is to get as much done fast when really low but f we keep charging at that high level it heats and begins to boil off water and lead to early death for the battery.
For simple though, the charger has to sense the votage of the battery as a way to know what level to start the recharge? Kind of a tricky thing and many think the charger adjust the amps. But what makes the whole idea work is that we adjust aht amps going out by changeing the voltage of the output! Same idea said a different way since current flow is set by the difference in the points. Like water flow? If we look at a tank of water three feet high it runs into a tank a foot high far quicker than if the second tank two feet or even less at three feet.
So adjusting the charge output voltage does change the amps that flow!
I think the simple point may be that the "brains" in the new charge systems are too smart? If they can't tell what voltage the battery is, they may not put out anything until they feel the sensing is working? So maybe the idea that it senses NO battery means it doesn't put out ANY charge!
That was where I thought you might be able to make it think there was a coach battery there to charge if you put voltage from the chassis battery onto the cables where there would normally be a coach battery. Like you were going to connect jumper cables to use the coach batteries to jump start the chassis battery and starter? But since you have no coach batteries there, just tie the jumper cable tot he cables that will eventually be on the new coach batteries as a way to see if that makes the charger jump up and send out voltage to charge when you do get batteries in there?
No harm in connecting the coach and chassis batteries as they do connect through the mode solenoid when the engine runs.

I feel the pain on trying to just go buy some simple things . My wife is picking up a water filter for the frig at home. But our options were to order it and have it shipped to the house in a few days, order it and have it shipped to the store for pick in one day which we did but the really silly one was order it and it would be dropped at the house in 13 minutes but we have to pay around six dolars for that home delivery???
All we really want to do is pick one off the shelf because she is there buying lots of other stuff! But where do they have it that it can get to our house in minutes but we can't get one off the shelf? Are we living under some type of coin operated dispenser?
Shopping is getting too mind boggling for me!

 

[jefflbi]

So my inability to find a 3rd matching battery must might have been a blessing in disguise......... I have a mobile RV mechanic who tells me that most Marine/RV Deep Cell AGM batteries are dual purpose and although will work, are not the best for coach batteries and will go bad in 2-3 yrs. just like mine have. He says that what he recommends and uses himself are 6 volt deep cycle golf cart batteries as they last a lot longer. He claims having is current batteries for 14 yrs................. and that depending on how much boondocking you do, depends on how many you should have. He said that if you do very little boondocking and are usually connected up to shore power, that 2 /6 volt batteries should be sufficient. I don't do any extended boondocking. Maybe an overnight here or there were I an run my generator. But since my compartment will hold 3 batteries, I'm thinking of getting 3 /6 volt batteries, and using the two dual purpose Marine/RV Deep Cycle batteries I bought for my chassis batteries and I have not changed my chassis batteries. Before I pull the trigger on this purpose I wanted to see what the group thoughts were............ and maybe recommendation on specific batteries to consider.........

Interstate sells a Heavy Duty Marine Deep Cyc;e 12 volt battery that I'm also considering.

Interstate Batteries Heavy Duty Marine Deep Cycle Battery 12V 100Ah 925CCA (31-AGM7) Pure Matrix Power Commercial AGM Cranking Replacement (Group Size 31) GEM Cars, Yachts, Extra Fuel Tank Trucks​

 

[Morich]

Sorry, does not sound good on the three six volts.
When using six volts batteries to replace 12Volt, we want to continue to have 12Volts as result. When using tow six, we wire them togher in a way that they combine to get 12VOLTS. If we wire three in the same way we get 18 which is NOT what we want.
Main basic idea is that some batteries are made to give lots of power quickly and those are for starting a big engine where we need a lot but not very long.
Other batteries are made to give power than is less than starting but much longer, so called deep cycle. They are more designed to run something like a trolling motor which doesn't take a huge amound of power but does it much longer. Built different by the way the lead plates are built. Good for running a trolling motor all day but that is not as heavy duty work as needed to crank a big engine?
We had somewhat the same needs as you mention in that we were most often in a campsite where we had power to plug in. But when we stopped along the road for lunch or somethings, we wanted 12 Volt power for lights and fans wittout starting thegenerator. Our choice was going from standard lead acid to AGM. We had the same amount of power and it worked pretty muchthe same on charge/discharge but had worked batteries way too much and the AGM take far less care to keep them in good shape. I hated battery work and never wanted to clean another if I could avoid it!
The advantage of AGM is that they are sealed and I never had to clean acid off the top or add more water. Slightly more expensive that older lead acid that have caps to add water?
One of the big thignas that can kill those type batteries is if they run low on water, so I felt like I had to nearly live with them to keep them working as long as I could. To avoid that, I was willing to pay a bit extra upfront.
The alternate idea with golf cart batteries is that we get more lead in two batteries but that also comes with taking up more space and does nothing for the dealing with the water and cleaning when acid is prone to creeping out with the fumes and settling on any metal nearby so that things like clamps have to be cleaned more often.
Another one of those cases where we have to choose our poison? Pay more now, pay more to replace more often, or work harder?

 

[jefflbi]

Sorry, does not sound good on the three six volts.
When using six volts batteries to replace 12Volt, we want to continue to have 12Volts as result. When using tow six, we wire them togher in a way that they combine to get 12VOLTS. If we wire three in the same way we get 18 which is NOT what we want.
Main basic idea is that some batteries are made to give lots of power quickly and those are for starting a big engine where we need a lot but not very long.
Other batteries are made to give power than is less than starting but much longer, so called deep cycle. They are more designed to run something like a trolling motor which doesn't take a huge amound of power but does it much longer. Built different by the way the lead plates are built. Good for running a trolling motor all day but that is not as heavy duty work as needed to crank a big engine?
We had somewhat the same needs as you mention in that we were most often in a campsite where we had power to plug in. But when we stopped along the road for lunch or somethings, we wanted 12 Volt power for lights and fans wittout starting thegenerator. Our choice was going from standard lead acid to AGM. We had the same amount of power and it worked pretty muchthe same on charge/discharge but had worked batteries way too much and the AGM take far less care to keep them in good shape. I hated battery work and never wanted to clean another if I could avoid it!
The advantage of AGM is that they are sealed and I never had to clean acid off the top or add more water. Slightly more expensive that older lead acid that have caps to add water?
One of the big thignas that can kill those type batteries is if they run low on water, so I felt like I had to nearly live with them to keep them working as long as I could. To avoid that, I was willing to pay a bit extra upfront.
The alternate idea with golf cart batteries is that we get more lead in two batteries but that also comes with taking up more space and does nothing for the dealing with the water and cleaning when acid is prone to creeping out with the fumes and settling on any metal nearby so that things like clamps have to be cleaned more often.
Another one of those cases where we have to choose our poison? Pay more now, pay more to replace more often, or work harder?

I decided on sticking with the 12 volt option wired up like they were. I pulled the trigger on the Interstate Heavy Duty Deep Cycle Marine since they claim to have 2x-3x times the service life, and will still have plenty of cranking power for the "Mom Start" should I ever need them for starting the RV. $425 each, but like you said, pay now or pay later............ I should have them by the end of this week...........