winter tank risks?

[bugzee]

I have recently returned home from Florida to find all the dump stations in the area "closed for the season"... My grey and black water tanks are about 1/4 full and I am wondering if my left over RV antifreeze will work as a freeze deterrent in these tanks? Of course I an not going to dump the tanks on the ground out in the country someplace, so I am stuck with these partially full tanks for the time being.
I've heard that antifreeze can damage the seals in my tank valves, but I don't know if this refers to RV antifreeze of regular automotive antifreeze...?
Or, is there another product out there that can hold me over for a few months?

[DavidM]

I find it hard to believe that dump stations in Florida are closed for the season. Maybe for a few days as a result of the recent cold snap, but not for the season.

Virtually any campground, public or private is going to have an open dump station. Also use this to find truck stops, etc with dumps: https://www.rvdumps.com/

Worse comes to worse, look on your street and see if there is a sewer manhole nearby. There is one right outside my house. Pry off the cover and drop the hose in to dump. Make sure it is not storm sewer drainage though.

David

[bugzee]

Thanks for the response. Apparently I wasn't clear.... I've returned home(to Wi.) FROM Florida. I'm not in Florida. All our campgrounds up here are closed.
So, my tank(s) are 1/4 full. I should have dumped at the Loves in Illinois, but I thought they'd be open up here, too.
I'd just like to keep them from freezing and expanding my tanks.
thx

[Morich]

I might go with the pink antifreeze but you ARE in definite cold and that makes me feel better with draining the tanks as fully as possible and then adding some antifreeze.

It's a mess but we have to pay the price for the fun? A bucket and carry it to the house stool is one way that works!
Another option which is late to get set is one of the macerator pumps which allow you to pump from the tanks uphill somewhat to drains using a garden hose but getting one on hand quickly is not an easy deal. Probably better option for other years?

An alternate that lots would choose is heading South but that probably has some other factors driving the decision!

[bugzee]

thx for the input.
the bucket idea sounds fun !

[DavidM]

Sorry, I missed the from and didn't look in your profile to see where you live.

Check with your town's sewage treatment plant. Many have dump stations open no matter the temp. Otherwise look for a manhole.

David

[Morich]

Depending on loacations and friends, is it possible any would have a sewer cleanout near enough to reach and low enough to drain downhill?
We have one here but it is uphill from the drive and no way to get closer/higher.

On the manual method? Pour slowly!

Never cleaned a honey pot, I assume! When folks thank veterans for their service, I have often wondered if that was part of what they were thanking them for doing!
The current generation will have no idea of how lucky they really are and they should stop whining!

[rk911]

Originally Posted by bugzee

Thanks for the response. Apparently I wasn't clear.... I've returned home(to Wi.) FROM Florida. I'm not in Florida. All our campgrounds up here are closed.
So, my tank(s) are 1/4 full. I should have dumped at the Loves in Illinois, but I thought they'd be open up here, too.
I'd just like to keep them from freezing and expanding my tanks.
thx

you might check to see if your local waste water treatment plant allows RVs to dump. Ours does and it's very convenient for us (and cheap...$5).

[Trend_Owner]

Originally Posted by bugzee

thx for the input.
the bucket idea sounds fun !

We had to use the bucket method in Mt. Rainier national park last year. All of their dump stations in the park were closed, and you had to drive far outside the park to dump your holding tanks. Rather than doing that, I used a five gallon bucket to empty our grey (NOT black!) tank into the toilet of a restroom.

This could be done with the black tank in a real pinch, which it sounds like you're in, but it would be a nasty job.

RV antifreeze is unfortunately not a good option for you. In really cold temps, it actually does freeze, but it does not expand when it does like water, so it doesn't damage anything. It would take a LOT of RV antifreeze to counteract the expanding effect of all the water in your holding tanks.

[wyocamper]

If all else fails, RV antifreeze is pretty cheap. I'd buy a couple gallons and pour one in each of the tanks as a last resort until you can dump. It won't hurt anything and might keep the drains from freezing and breaking.

[Trend_Owner]

Originally Posted by wyocamper

If all else fails, RV antifreeze is pretty cheap. I'd buy a couple gallons and pour one in each of the tanks as a last resort until you can dump. It won't hurt anything and might keep the drains from freezing and breaking.

As I noted above, RV antifreeze does not work like vehicle antifreeze at all. A couple of gallons of the stuff won't help matters at all as the tanks will still freeze. This is unlikely to damage the tanks, but the connections and valves are really likely to be damaged. The OP really needs to empty the tanks, however that needs to happen.

[Morich]

Risking freeze damage is kind of like outrunning a bear!
You might think about it and there are times when it might work but if I look at the risk involved, I don't want to tempt the bear!

Draining the tanks is ugly and not fun but it does avoid meeting the bear!

[powercat_ras]

When water freezes and turns to ice, there is 9% expansion. Things split or burst when this expansion happens and there is no place for the expanding material to go. Not the case in black and grey water systems.

As the material in your grey and black tank freeze it will expand but IMHO with partially filled tanks there will be no damage. The liquid changing to ice will expand into the air space. The tanks are vented so the air the expansion displaces has a place to go.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by powercat_ras

When water freezes and turns to ice, there is 9% expansion. Things split or burst when this expansion happens and there is no place for the expanding material to go. Not the case in black and grey water systems.

As the material in your grey and black tank freeze it will expand but IMHO with partially filled tanks there will be no damage. The liquid changing to ice will expand into the air space. The tanks are vented so the air the expansion displaces has a place to go.

This is true to a certain extent but then there is going to be water/waste in the drains and those are often hung out further and much smaller volume and mass so they take less time to freeze.

In the smaller space of the drain, does it get hard enough and expand enough to break?

How many times does one want to roll the dice? I do the dirty work and avoid the gamble, rather than do the dirty changing out the broken parts if I'm wrong by just a touch!

But being more realistic, the decision has likely been made at this point. I'm thinking it's been cold in Northern Wisconsin!

[bugzee]

well, I expected to get a variety of responses!
I purchased a short run of heat tape but of course they don’t tell you not to use on drain pipes until AFTER you open the pkg. It’s still going back to the store.
I like Randy’s response the most as “don’t worry about it” is right in my wheelhouse....however I am still concerned about the valves per Wyocamper.
I don’t look forward to replacing pipes, etc but I think it’s toolate to do anything about it as it’s been below zero now. Fingers crossed

[wyocamper]

Originally Posted by Trend_Owner

As I noted above, RV antifreeze does not work like vehicle antifreeze at all. A couple of gallons of the stuff won't help matters at all as the tanks will still freeze. This is unlikely to damage the tanks, but the connections and valves are really likely to be damaged.

Wait, are you saying I shouldn't have used it in my radiator?


The point of pouring a full gallon in each tank is to lower the freeze point enough to keep the drain valves from being damaged until they can be drained. With somewhere around 7-10 gallons of waste in each holding tank, one gallon of AF in each will probably make a difference. And since propylene glycol is more dense than water it should eventually settle in the low point drain.

[Mongobird]

Where I am there are several waste water treatment places which will permit dumping. Two miles away there are two RV dealers who have dumps which can be used 24/7. What we don't have is places with water hoses hooked up. Most places have shutoff valves below ground, so if you brought you own hose, you could rinse the tank out.


Where you are, have you actually called truck stops, truck repair shops and RV repair shops? I know at least one of the local shops has a dump in their service bays which is used when they diagnose or service water systems.


If you want to provide reasonable protection, expect to have at least a 3:1 ratio for your RV antifreeze. Automotive antifreeze is more like 5:1. RV antifreeze is typically polypropylene glycol, and engine antifreeze is primarily ethylene glycol, which is much more toxic.


If you do attempt to dilute, I would urge you to drive around, so that sloshing can distribute the mix. But seriously, I would pursue a dump place, even if you have to put water in your fresh water tank to help flush things a bit.

[Noah4448]

Pretty much all modern homes have a sewer clean-out. This is usually 2 to 5 meters from the edge of the house towards the street of your sewer drainage field. When we arrive home we back our class A up to the garage, pop the top of the clean-out, and dump. A longer hose for your RV, the "bucket method" ugh, or ask a neighbor to use their more easily accessed should work.

I have heard there might be ordinances about doing this but have no personal knowledge about.

[DavesRVs]

Temporary fix: Dump enough gallons of the blue WINDSHIELD WIPER antifreeze down the crapper, enough so that it is not diluted more than 50/50.
WW Antifreeze should be good to -40F (same as -40C) when not diluted at all.
I rent out motorhomes all winter long hear in Michigan, and "this is how we do it".

BETTER to just dump it into a 5 gallon bucket, (don't overflow it!) and dump it down the nearest toilet. Been doing this for years too.

Dave

[Grey Goose]

Couldn't you try calling a local "Porta-Potty" service and see if they could come pump your tank?