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Old 06-25-2007, 01:24 AM   #21
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Hi Ho: One thing that hasn't been said is that quality control and cost (profits) have a great deal to do with each other. If you want an example of how much it can cost, look at small airplanes. These are a little more complex than an auto (but no where near as complex as a MH) but they cost about 10 times more than an automobile. The reason is that it is really inconvenient to have problems at 10,000 feet. Therefore people that buy small aircraft are willing to pay for the cost of quality control. Because MH's are so complex (way more complex than a house, for example) it is not difficult to conceive that they would cost two to three times what they now do if qulaity control were that important to people. Are you willing to pay that much? The problem some have is that they want low price and high quality. I for one am happy when the warranty period is over because I can do whatever I want at that point. I am happy with the level of quality control and prices that currently exist.
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Old 06-25-2007, 04:25 AM   #22
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To add a little fuel to the fire: All the time your M/H was in for warranty work, your basic warranty time kept right on running. Is that fair? In actuality these M/H's really do not have a warranty, when you factor in usage, vs time in shop for repairs. It's a crap shoot.
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Old 06-25-2007, 06:47 AM   #23
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I know some folks have kept track of the time the coach isn't available for use due to warranty problems. They submitted a request in writing to Winnebago Service Administration for an extension to their warranty period by that amount of time and got it in writing. I didn't learn of this until well after my warranty had expired.

On the other hand Winnebago Service Administration has demonstrated flexibility. I had 14 weeks of downtime in the first year and missed rally. When a problem did come up 15 months after the in-service date Winnebago Service Administration looked at the history of the coach and granted good-will to pay for the fix even though it wasn't related to a previous problem.
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Old 06-25-2007, 02:58 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dirk Ostermiller:
Hi Ho: One thing that hasn't been said is that quality control and cost (profits) have a great deal to do with each other. If you want an example of how much it can cost, look at small airplanes. These are a little more complex than an auto (but no where near as complex as a MH) but they cost about 10 times more than an automobile. The reason is that it is really inconvenient to have problems at 10,000 feet. Therefore people that buy small aircraft are willing to pay for the cost of quality control. Because MH's are so complex (way more complex than a house, for example) it is not difficult to conceive that they would cost two to three times what they now do if qulaity control were that important to people. Are you willing to pay that much? The problem some have is that they want low price and high quality. I for one am happy when the warranty period is over because I can do whatever I want at that point. I am happy with the level of quality control and prices that currently exist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points, but something you didn't point out is that the price of an airplane and the replacement parts isn't just the cost of producing ˜quality': it's the liability costs that are projected against the airplane or part if it fails and there is an major accident and potential deaths.

In fact, at one time everyone built an entry-level airplane, like the Cessna 150, 152, Skipper and the Piper Tomahawk. But manufacturers had the liability of that aircraft possibly crashing 'forever', no matter how old or how many hours were on it. It got to the point that the future liability costs made the entry-level planes too expensive to sell at a profit, so they all but eliminated that market and had to focus on fancier and more expensive airplanes that could be sold, but justified by buyers, at a far higher cost.

The cost of 'reliability' was a factor, but even more was simply the cost of litigation if someone was killed.

And lastly, you mention that people want low price and high quality; naturally, to me that doesn't sound unrealistic. But further, if it's true that low cost means low quality, then in all fairness to consumers, maybe sales brochures and manufacturers websites shouldn't spend so much effort on touting their 'quality' if it really isn't there unless you buy a higher end, more expensive product. If they say they build a better quality product than their competitors, then that should be the case, regardless of the price.

I for one bought into the 'quality' sales pitch from Winnebago and the dealers in selecting my Sightseer. If I had been told 'well, the real quality is in our more expensive product line', then I would have considered that too, since the initial investment is only part of the story. Being happy and able to enjoy what you bought is a big part of your ownership experience, not just saving some dollars up front, having a lot of problems, and then being told 'gee, you bought entry level, what were you expecting?'

I happen to own a Mercedes E-Class that I bought new in 2001 and paid approximately $48k for it. Am I to believe that M-B has a higher build-quality if I had bought a $85k S-Class at that time? I don't think so... the S-Class is bigger, has more standard equipment and more powerful engines but I don't believe that it has a higher build-quality because it cost more. In fact, my MH was recently flooded due to a collar fitting cracking and breaking apart; I was hooked up to city water and it poured for 5 1/2 hours inside the MH. That part cost Winnebago approximately $1 or so; am I to believe that if I had bought a $150k model it would have a different fitting and so it wouldn't have failed? Guess what... I looked at the parts on line at Winnebago and that broken part shows up throughout the model range...

One way to have a nice profit margin is to minimize the cost of parts from suppliers, but sometimes that can come back to bite you in the long term.
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Old 06-25-2007, 03:06 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Homer:
To add a little fuel to the fire: All the time your M/H was in for warranty work, your basic warranty time kept right on running. Is that fair? In actuality these M/H's really do not have a warranty, when you factor in usage, vs time in shop for repairs. It's a crap shoot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point: another reason, in my mind anyway, why manufacturers should offer a longer basic warranty.

You can't hold against anyone, but other costs are still running while your MH is tied up in the shop for extended periods of time: dmv fees, insurance and space rent, for example. Twice now we've paid for the next month for space rent even though it was never there the entire previous month. And dealers & manufacturers have no responsibility to you for the period that you can't use it, no matter how long it's in their shop for repair.
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Old 06-26-2007, 01:05 AM   #26
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Owning a motorhome suxs.
Why don't we let this die a peaceful death. There is no way that we can rationalize the joys of owning a motor home. Everything is negative and there is no positives in the picture. Good Miles
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Old 06-26-2007, 02:38 PM   #27
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On the lighter side

I often wonder why I think RVing is worth it. Then it dawns on me.

One, it's the best "guy" thing in the world. It's everything in one place, a house to fiddle with, a vehicle to tinker on and at some level, its the other woman .

Two, the people. The terrific folks here in this forum. The folks in WIT, Escapees, FMCA as well as the acquaintances you make on the road.

Three, where you go and what you see.

It took 9/11 for us to wake up and look in our own back yard. We've now stopped wasting our money on other countries traveling the world and started spending it in the USA instead.

Bottom line, the lifestyle is why the DW and I got into this in the first place. We knew it wouldn't be easy. The hardest parts have been all the research and learning and finding the extra time to take care of thing. But in the end the sense of satisfaction makes it worth it.

Now if I could just retire.
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Old 06-26-2007, 02:57 PM   #28
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Way to go Jon.
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Old 06-26-2007, 03:56 PM   #29
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ichn2go:
Owning a motorhome suxs.
Why don't we let this die a peaceful death. There is no way that we can rationalize the joys of owning a motor home. Everything is negative and there is no positives in the picture. Good Miles </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, that seems a little harsh, if your reply is directed towards my posts... maybe some of the replies I've received would be different if it was their MH and they had to deal with what I've had gone wrong... Interesting that some people just can't admit that Winnebago isn't perfect and it's almost like some take it personal because I've vocalized all of the problems. Kind of a shame that in a forum we want to blame the purchaser and somehow give the manufacturer a free pass, though I did nothing more than put my faith in and pay for a product; I certainly had nothing to do with building it.

Here's a surprise: I dropped off the Sightseer today; even though the ring & pinion and bearings were just replaced two weeks ago, Workhorse is now saying that something else is wrong and will have to tear into the rear differential and driveline again...

Owning an RV can be a rewarding experience; I've owned three before this MH. If I hadn't been happy all those years, I certainly wouldn't have bought this one. I think the blame should be placed on the manufacturer, not me for stating the facts. No product is perfect but based on the huge list of things that have gone wrong, this borders on the ridiculous and no one, not even me, should have this happen...

And finally, I'll let you have the last word, since these quotes are from a couple of your previous posts by you...

"It seems that if the dealer is interested and cares about your problem it gets fixed. If not then its good luck."

"If they are not looking at the forum they are missing an excellant chance to take our pulse and find where they need to improve. What will it take for them to look and pay attention???"

Happy Trails...
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:07 AM   #30
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Richard, you miss the point. No one is saying Winnie is perfect. No one wants to give the manufacturer a free pass.

Many of us has had problems and yes I had to return a coach four times to get a tile to stick. But, writing lengthy posts, is counter productive to solving your problems. Establish a repoire with you dealer and Winnie. Expend your energy on getting the problems fixed. The dealers cannot find qualified techs to fix the coaches, so find a dealer that has a reputation of having the best techs and taking care of the customer. This is where you should direct your efforts and not bashing the Dealers and Manufacturers on the forum. Everything you say is true ,,but instead of finding ways that your Rv is costing you money, find ways that will help your pocket book.

Many of us has had problems, but have worked thru them to solve them. Right now I have problems with a new set of tires vibrating. I have been back three times already and am going again today..Should this happen? No, but it has so I am dealing with it...not posting on the forum..there are many positives to write about instead of dealing with the negatives..Have a great day and this is my final posting on the subject. What did Mr. Gump say...Life is like a box of Chocolates.
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:36 AM   #31
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I thought the purpose of the forums was to either vent your spleen or beat the drums of happiness. Lets let it continue unabated. I like to read both sides of the equation, I feel better informed that way. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:21 PM   #32
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ichn2go:
Richard, you miss the point. No one is saying Winnie is perfect. No one wants to give the manufacturer a free pass.

Many of us has had problems and yes I had to return a coach four times to get a tile to stick. But, writing lengthy posts, is counter productive to solving your problems. Establish a repoire with you dealer and Winnie. Expend your energy on getting the problems fixed. The dealers cannot find qualified techs to fix the coaches, so find a dealer that has a reputation of having the best techs and taking care of the customer. This is where you should direct your efforts and not bashing the Dealers and Manufacturers on the forum. Everything you say is true ,,but instead of finding ways that your Rv is costing you money, find ways that will help your pocket book.

Many of us has had problems, but have worked thru them to solve them. Right now I have problems with a new set of tires vibrating. I have been back three times already and am going again today..Should this happen? No, but it has so I am dealing with it...not posting on the forum..there are many positives to write about instead of dealing with the negatives..Have a great day and this is my final posting on the subject. What did Mr. Gump say...Life is like a box of Chocolates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since you have been a member here for a long time, I respect your opinion but can't agree with what your saying. I feel that my posts aren't negative, I've simply stated the realty of what has happened to my MH and I have never bashed Winnebago; the worse thing I've said is that my Sightseer has been a 'dog' and that RV manufactures need to improve the build quality. Post your fax number and your welcome to review every repair order I have, which I can tell you there's a whole bunch! The fact is, there's a lot more that I could say to slam Winnebago, but I never have.

Additionally, you state that I should direct my efforts to get it repaired; well, between the local Winnebago dealer and Workhorse, it's been in the repair shop approximately 55 days over multiple visits. Seems like I HAVE made every effort to get it repaired. (Workhorse just called and said they want my MH until July 13th, so feel free to add those days to the total; they think the rear differential blew up again and it happened before I even picked it up after the last repair.) A MH is of little value to me, or anyone, if you can't take it on the road and use it, and that's exactly what the case has been.

I thought that this forum was for a lot of different reasons, including posting problems, asking for help, getting ideas and information on my MH that others can compare to their own. If you disagree with this, then why did you at one time post

"If they are not looking at the forum they are missing an excellant chance to take our pulse and find where they need to improve. What will it take for them to look and pay attention???"

My take on what you wrote is consistent with me posting the problems I've had, so someone at Winnebago will make product-build improvements and give a heads up to others that may have the same brand or model.

I guess I don't see the point of a forum that everyone is supposed to only post threads about how perfect their RV is... as far as I'm concerned, who cares? I WANT to know about problems that might pertain to my RV, products to avoid because of poor quality or sales or service dealers to avoid.

I guess people who write such things are negative and should keep their complaints to themselves, though please note that I went back and read every post you've ever submitted. You yourself have had problems with your MH; just wondering why you took the time to post those complaints and if someone complained about all those 'negative' threads YOU posted in this same forum...

And as far as your quote from Forrest Gump, who's a fictional movie character; he also said that 'Stupid is as stupid does'...
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:27 PM   #33
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Homer:
I thought the purpose of the forums was to either vent your spleen or beat the drums of happiness. Lets let it continue unabated. I like to read both sides of the equation, I feel better informed that way. Just my 2 cents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Homer; knowledge and information is powerful...
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Old 06-28-2007, 01:14 AM   #34
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Richard,, I apologize if I have ruffled your feathers. This was not my intent. I was trying to say be positive, that things will get better.

But I do resent the remark about being stupid, I think that was uncalled for. If you read all my posts you must have noted that I asked for help in Solving problems many times. This is my last post on this topic. You have a good day and I hope you can enjoy your motorhome at some point in time. Good Miles
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:00 AM   #35
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It's difficult watching two good people lock horns over verbal vapor.

Like the convicted felon, career criminal Rodney said "can't we all just get along"
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Old 06-28-2007, 03:54 PM   #36
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ichn2go:
Richard,, I apologize if I have ruffled your feathers. This was not my intent. I was trying to say be positive, that things will get better.

But I do resent the remark about being stupid, I think that was uncalled for. If you read all my posts you must have noted that I asked for help in Solving problems many times. This is my last post on this topic. You have a good day and I hope you can enjoy your motorhome at some point in time. Good Miles </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be retired (lucky you) and have way too much time on your hands, because you take everything I've said and make it into something it isn't... I never called you stupid: I wrote:

"And as far as your quote from Forrest Gump, who's a fictional movie character; he also said that 'Stupid is as stupid does'..."

Nowhere does it reference you in anyway; I don't resort to name calling and I have never 'bashed Winnebago or the local dealer' as you have stated. For someone who continues to say not to be negative, you sure comes across that way to me, reply after reply.

In the future, if I post a question or information, please don't reply to my thread. And if you post a question or information, I promise not to reply. Since there are many members here that can help each of us, we don't need to respond to each other in any way.

Certainly their are members here that can relate to all the problems I've had, and realize that the posts are nothing more then informational and a progress report. It's too bad that I've had so many problems, posted them and you conclude that I'm a negative person; in fact, I'm quite certain that the problems will be resolved at some time since it's been in the shop so many times.

Two weeks ago Workhorse replaced the ring & pinion, bearings and seals. It blew up before I took it home but I didn't know that for sure. I called the shop the next day, only to be told to go ahead and make the 900 mile trip I had planned. Took it back due to the loud noises it was making from 40 mph to 0 the other day. I went back today to see first hand what happened. The shop told me the bearing failed and tore up the rear differential. Was I upset... did I yell and scream? No... am I disappointed that the MH is down for another two weeks with summer here? Absolutely. This will make 6 1/2 weeks down time to the 1 week where I got to use it. Not a very good ratio in my book but new parts were ordered and the repair will be made. I asked the tech how often a bearing in the rear differential fails and he told me almost never... just my luck, I guess.

By posting the information that the second differential failed in less than 100' of driving, am I being negative? Well, I'm sure at least one member will think so...
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:26 PM   #37
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It is indeed unfortunate that you have had many problems with your rig. I can certainly understand your frustrations. One of the reasons we decided to buy used was to let some other poor guy deal with the frustration of working out the new coach bugs. There have certainly been things on mine that needed fixing...nothing particularly serious and, in my case, stuff that I was able to fix or have a good independent RV mechanic fix for me. Frankly, I like to tinker with the thing.

I have an older neighbor who is thinking of buying a new motorhome and he has been asking me for advice and suggestions. I know he is not a DIY kind of guy so I gave him my best opinion and that was:

'If you buy any new coach, try your best to find a dealer that has a good, reliable service department. In spite of a good dealer, understand that you may need to visit the factory at some time (maybe more than once) to get some things repaired properly. Any manufacturer can have problems and, IMO, the entire RV industry has QC problems. All that said, the RV lifestyle can be a lot of fun but be prepared for things to break. If you are lucky, maybe they won't break too often.'

Good luck getting things taken care of and I hope you will be back on the road having some fun with your motorhome soon.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:35 PM   #38
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by smlranger:
It is indeed unfortunate that you have had many problems with your rig. I can certainly understand your frustrations. One of the reasons we decided to buy used was to let some other poor guy deal with the frustration of working out the new coach bugs. There have certainly been things on mine that needed fixing...nothing particularly serious and, in my case, stuff that I was able to fix or have a good independent RV mechanic fix for me. Frankly, I like to tinker with the thing.

I have an older neighbor who is thinking of buying a new motorhome and he has been asking me for advice and suggestions. I know he is not a DIY kind of guy so I gave him my best opinion and that was:

'If you buy any new coach, try your best to find a dealer that has a good, reliable service department. In spite of a good dealer, understand that you may need to visit the factory at some time (maybe more than once) to get some things repaired properly. Any manufacturer can have problems and, IMO, the entire RV industry has QC problems. All that said, the RV lifestyle can be a lot of fun but be prepared for things to break. If you are lucky, maybe they won't break too often.'

Good luck getting things taken care of and I hope you will be back on the road having some fun with your motorhome soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the words on encourgement; I've already pictured ourselves at our local ocean RV park in two weeks...
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:13 AM   #39
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I have a Winnebago Voyage 2005 and bought it new. Sure a few bugs but they all have them. It runs great and I know that we will be buying a Winny again. Hubby looking at the bigger ones with Diesel. I just laugh because these large motorhomes use to intimidate him....I guess no more! We have friends who bought Newmar and I was shocked at all the problems that they had when it was new. Quality??
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Old 07-04-2007, 06:27 AM   #40
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I can certainly understand his frustration.
Once, an old friend that knew we were getting ready to buy a new motorhome said, "It takes two years to get all the bugs out of them, then they ususally are pretty bug free for a while".
On another note, my exhusband drives a coach for a multimillionair that is afraid of flying! The coach is a newell that is over a million dollars with the extras installed, (four phones with fax) other expensive crap. It is always being taken in for things to be fixed on the coach. The expensive coaches just have more things to go wrong! LOL
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