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Old 03-02-2020, 06:26 AM   #21
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Yes they were recalled but after how long, after how many catastrophic failures and after how many were denied repairs and had to drop thousand on finding their own fix?

One local mechanic did a good business before WorkHorse stopped denying that there was a problem by having a machine shop make up solid steel pistons to replace the faulty plastic ones, replacing the corroded ABS control valves and putting the coaches on an annual brake fluid flush plus on those who had already suffered overheated rotors that warped or cracked he would also have to replace the wheel bearings, seals and rotors. It was very costly to deal with especially when WorkHorse was dragging their feet and denying there was a problem. He showed me the obviously defective components along with the ones he was replacing them with.

Engineers who would at times be found sitting at my dinner table and were involved with designing ABS components were also well aware of the problem before owners started to experience issues (actually before the components were ever installed in a vehicle) which makes it even more incredulous that WorkHorse behaved as they did.

I was approached by a number of people in that time frame who wanted to warn me that I had to stop driving my motor home and file a complaint to force WorkHorse to finally do something about the brake issue however since I wasn't able to afford the WorkHorse which is what I thought I really wanted at the time I had been stuck with the F53 and its very reliable Kelsey Hays brake system. Due to lack of finances and dumb luck I fortunately avoided all that and got a chassis that has required nothing but a free air intake update along with a free fuse harness update for the cruise control and has been utterly reliable. Neither issue made it so the coach couldn't be safely driven while waiting for the parts. I still have that very reliable F53. Yes Ford is no Angel either but....

However that's all moot now since NavStar has shifted WorkHorse's focus to local last mile electric delivery vehicles in the form of delivery trucks and drones and through Moog with small multi-rotor aircraft. That last NavStar debacle over supplying defective small truck diesel engines likely didn't help things at NavStar either.

Will GM get back into the RV specific chassis business or just continue to supply standard front engine cab and frame rail truck chassis to coach works who build class C and Super C motor homes well I don't know however there are enough out there that have already been using FreightLiner, GM, etc box truck chassis to build those classes of coaches.


Anyways as the saying goes, "It is what it is." Not enough Angels and too many Demons out there in the Automotive Industry.
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Old 03-02-2020, 10:18 AM   #22
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In reply to the original post, there were some manufacturers building class A (FRED) with the cummins diesel. Tiffin was offering the choice of gas or diesel on the Allegro line up to about 2009. In the years leading up to 2009 the diesels represented less than 10% of the sales, most folks simply opted for the gas chassis. I think it was around 2009 or 2010 when the cummins was going to have to go new emissions and DEF. That was estimated to add $8000 to $10000 to the diesel option which was already selling poorly so they discontinued offering it.
Tiffin also offered the workhorse chassis along side the Ford chassis during that time period. The Ford chassis was the better seller and also was a couple thousand less expensive than the workhorse. There are people who love the workhorse 8.1 but apparently they were the minority based on sales.
As with most products the successful manufacturers build what they think will sell. Then the actual sales will ultimately determine what they continue to build.
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Old 03-02-2020, 04:13 PM   #23
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NeilV, I hope you feel better after your rant on the Bosch brake issue on the Workhorse chassis. The bottom line is it was still a better chassis because of its powertrain. It was finally resolved when the Federal government stepped in and mandated the recall. At that time Workhorse was a heavily leveraged company without much capital, which lead them to their bad decision and their eventual sale to Navistar. Corporate greed was and still is the real issue, and Workhorse, Ford, GM, Boeing and a plethora of others in all areas that affect us as consumers are all guilty of that. Our governments job is to protect us from that.

In 2002 the Workhorse chassis with the 8.1L V-8 and Allison transmission was superior to the Ford powered chassis in that era. I could list all the the problems with the Ford engine and transmission at that time but what would that prove? Fortunately Ford saw the problems and has steadily improved it to the better product they have today. Unfortunately for us RV buyers, both gas and diesel, there is a long list of defects from all the manufacturers and their less than stellar attempts at quality control and customer service. Please note the recent topic "Winnebago Quality Control" to see nothing has changed in the industry.

This year Ford has the new 7.3L V-8 engine in the 2020-2021 F-53 chassis. Apparently they finally decided the new bigger 7.3L V-8 was the way to improve the package, which was what Workhorse had already done 18 years ago. Incidentally way back in 2001 the Vortec 8.1L made 330 hp @ 4200 RPM and 450 ft.-lbs of torque @ 3200 RPM, while the new Ford 7.3L V-8 engine makes 350 horsepower @5500 RPM and 468 ft.-lbs of torque @ 4000 RPM (which is still a higher revving motor to make up for its smaller displacement). So as the saying goes, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

My point, and the title of this thread "Why Hasn't GM Built Class A Duramax Powered Chassis?" wasn't intended to devolve into a Ford versus Chevy argument. So back to the topic. The title could easily have been "Why Hasn't Ford Built Class A Powerstroke Powered Chassis? Both Ford and Chevrolet have supplied the excellent diesel powered Super Class C chassis the past several years, so why not make the jump to a Class A chassis? It could be the higher cost involved (plus additional costs for a diesel generator) and the fact they can make a higher profit on pickup trucks.

As I said before, the argument maybe moot with the gathering economic dark clouds on the horizon, they won't be making any new investments in something like this in the near future.

The new 7.3L V-8 2020 F-53 MOTORHOME STRIPPED CHASSIS

With its available seven wheelbases and GVWRs up to 26,000 lbs., the 2020 F-53 Motorhome
Stripped Chassis accommodates a wide range of Class A motorhomes. Power is delivered by the
standard 7.3L V8 engine rated at 350 horsepower and 468 ft.-lbs of torque.



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Old 03-02-2020, 06:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deucehotrods View Post
Actually Workhorse Custom Chassis began in 1999. As Chevrolet decided to get out of the RV chassis business, Workhorse took over those operations, beginning with converting the Chevy P30 Step Van/RV chassis into a similar Workhorse version called the P32. In 2001 the W series chassis was designed strictly for motorhomes.
Chevrolet used the "P32" RV chassis designation all through the 70's, 80's and 90's. Workhorse changed very little when they took it over.

You're also forgetting the W series' predecessor, the Chevrolet P12. It was pretty much a W series without the new 8.1 liter engine.

And others (Spartan, Freightliner) have proposed gas RV chassis that, so far, haven't gone anywhere. The motorhome chassis market just isn't that big.
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Old 03-02-2020, 09:46 PM   #25
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Again the topic was "Why Hasn't GM Built Class A Duramax Powered Chassis?", but here is more history from twenty years ago!

When GM made the motorhome chassis it was initially designated a P32 and was never really officially recognized as a P30 except for ease of conversation and convenience, therefore the confusion. Most publications, people and marketing types simply dropped off the "2" and the chassis became more commonly known in speech and print as a P30. I did the same thing. My bad! The differences in between the P series is blurred and to a GM engineer there wasn't any difference between a motorhome chassis, whether it is spoken about as a 30 or a 32, it was simply recognized as a P series.

When Workhorse got the product, the marketing efforts and literature pointed to a P32 Wide-Track designation, however in reality to the technician types it was simply a P Series. Later we see the chassis guides dropping or never having mentioned 30 or 32 and simply describing the product as a P series.

The P32 was designed to be a motorhome chassis as opposed to a commercial product. I understand that the placement of the steering wheel column is the biggest difference between a P30 commercial and a P32 motorhome chassis.

The P12 was a unique chassis, I-beam front axle (80.6 ") 22.5 inch wheels, a Vortec 454 with a 4L80E 4 transmission and 15" diameter brake rotors. It apparently was similar to the GM Kodiak truck chassis. Winnebago apparently designed the Vectra Gran Tour on the P12 chassis, partly because of the extra weight capacity.
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:08 AM   #26
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I was told by a local dealer when the US Govt bailed out GM around the 08 crash, that they agreed they would stay out of the RV business that helped get them in such bad shape.
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:49 AM   #27
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Your local dealer is full of it. Read my posts and you'll see GM sold the RV business to Workhorse in 1999, 10 years before the 2009 bankruptcy.
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Old 03-05-2020, 02:32 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by deucehotrods View Post
Again the topic was "Why Hasn't GM Built Class A Duramax Powered Chassis?", but here is more history from twenty years ago!
Well, about 20 years ago, I was working in Europe for an automotive supplier, I asked the head of the CitroŽn brand (PSA Holding) why they still build those ugly cheap looking plastic cars (Xantia etc.) instead of launching a new luxury sedan like the DS was in the fifties/sixties/seventies or the CX/SM in the seventies. The answer was: well we earn money with those cheap plastic cars.
Several years later (2005) they launched the CitroŽn C6. Looking very classic, like the real successor of the DS, very nice, very luxury and with a real great and powerful diesel engine (the French engineers are very good in diesel technologies, comparing to the Germans). Even the French President was fascinated about this nice car, the media too. The C6 beame "car of the year 2005".
But.... CitroŽn did not earn money with this car. They stopped the production in 2012. They are still producing "cheap looking plastic cars", they earn money them, that much money so they could buy the GM brands Vauxhall and Opel with the entire production facilities.

The point is: A car manufacturer has to earn money (many people seem not to know this, see the demands they make regarding energy consumption or emissions). It's reason why there is no new convertible Caddie anymore... ant they still build the XTS while the CT6 is critical.

Certainly the bigger a car-manufacturer is, the more complex the internal workflows are and good smart ideas are not very wellcome because this is "out of the usual processes" (guess this is fundamental at GM).

As well as I think that it's not easy to launch a competitive chassis to Fords F 53 even the rv market is runnig well. Looking to the price: For under 80k you can have an entire 30ft Class A motorhome based on a Ford F 53 chassis, with everything in it: fridge, microwave, mattress, etc.. And all those guys, from the manufacturer to the dealer, are earning money with that, even Ford.

If GM now wants to start to produce a competitive class A chassis, the prices for rvs must be much higher (minimum MSRP >150k for a Class A, minimum market prices should be around 120k). Same as for Navistar and its workhorse chassis.

But that's not that what the customer wants. So Ford will keep its Class A 26000 lbs monopol for a good while.
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Old 03-05-2020, 02:02 PM   #29
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When GM killed the 8.1L for their pickup and truck lines, they pounded the final nails in Workhorse's coffin, in addition to the worst recession since the 30's. That's why the Duramax diesel would be their only engine available unless they developed a bigger LS series truck engine. You are right though, the cost and limited Class A market don't produce a substantial profit to justify its being, and the cyclical RV market doesn't help any either. I fear its a moot point because we are in for a recession, maybe worse than the last one, that may force Ford into bankruptcy.

The Next Recession Can Bankrupt Ford Motor Company

https://www.ccn.com/next-recession-c...motor-company/

Why Bankruptcy Is a Forgone Conclusion for Ford Motor Company

https://www.ccn.com/why-bankruptcy-f...motor-company/
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Old 03-06-2020, 09:28 AM   #30
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Two links to Op-Ed stories from some outfit named ccn?! Are they trying to steal a few clicks from CNN maybe?
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Old 03-06-2020, 01:10 PM   #31
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The previous links I posted above say the same thing the financial and media outlets are saying all across the industry about Ford's problems. With the coming recession here and China and the rest of the world paralyzed with the Covid-19 virius, I think it's pretty obvious that Ford will be the first to fall. These stories pointed out these problems before the stock market crashed and the Covid-19 virius started spreading here. For your reading pleasure:

Is Ford in trouble?

https://www.motorists.org/blog/is-ford-in-trouble/

Moodyís Cuts Fordís Bond Rating to Junk Status

https://www.wsj.com/articles/moodys-...us-11568067924

Why Ford Had Its S&P Credit Rating Cut Coming

https://marketrealist.com/2019/10/wh...ng-cut-coming/

Is Ford Headed For Bankruptcy? 90% of Ford profits come from the F-150

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/is-ford...or-bankruptcy/

Forget Ford (F), Invest in These Auto Companies Instead

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/forge...133801499.html

Once-venerable Ford faces an uncertain future

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/30/lege...in-future.html

Ford To Go Bankrupt In The Next Recession, Tesla CEO Says

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbap.../#495a3d8269e2

US carmakersí future on the line again, a decade after bailout
Bankruptcy may have given GM and Chrysler an edge over Ford

https://www.ft.com/content/6ffca03e-...c-663b3f553b35

Ford Motor Stock Could Hit 10-Year Low

https://www.investopedia.com/ford-mo...ar-low-4773097

Ford lost $1.7 billion in fourth quarter after trouble with Explorer launch

https://www.nwitimes.com/business/lo...264a96205.html

Ford shares dive after carmaker posts fourth-quarter loss, disappointing 2020 outlook

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN1ZY2P6

Ford Exits Detroit Car Show in More Trouble Than When It Went In

https://247wallst.com/autos/2019/01/...en-it-went-in/

Why Ford must execute to avoid 'deep trouble'

https://www.autonews.com/video/why-f...d-deep-trouble

FYI: CCN.com, also known as CCN Markets, is a news site reporting on Markets, Gaming, Business, and Global Affairs. Op-eds and opinions should not be attributed to CCN.com
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