Fourth and Fifth Gear Howl - Update!

Richard 34A · 05-26-2007, 07:51 AM

For some time now, I've posted that I have a howl in forth and fifth gear. Not nearly as bad as my previous 1995 Flair on a Ford chassis, but the driveline noise was more than I would have expected on the newer Workhorse chassis.

I had it diagnosed a couple of weeks ago and the fun began; Workhorse found water contamination in the rear differential and said the repair would not be covered by them.

I've spent considerable energy trying to get the selling dealer to step up and pay for the repair. ($3500 - $7000, depending on which parts are replaced.) I had discovered that my MH had been in my Winnebago dealers' inventory when we had some flooding on New Year's Day in 2006. Dealer insisted no flooding had occured at their store and all the inventory had been moved prior as a precaution.

While they still the insist above, after I found the picture posted below on the Internet and gave them multiple color copies, on Friday they agreed to pay Workhorse $3500 to replace the ring & pinion gear, bearings and some seals. (Some of the battle was over the fact that they wanted to tow the MH to their shop and do the repairs myself; I felt that it should be done by Workhorse.)

Just goes to show you the power of the Internet... repairs may take another 10 days or so due to the rack & pinion being back-ordered but will post the outcome after repairs are completed.

Richard 34A · 05-26-2007, 07:51 AM

For some time now, I've posted that I have a howl in forth and fifth gear. Not nearly as bad as my previous 1995 Flair on a Ford chassis, but the driveline noise was more than I would have expected on the newer Workhorse chassis.

I had it diagnosed a couple of weeks ago and the fun began; Workhorse found water contamination in the rear differential and said the repair would not be covered by them.

I've spent considerable energy trying to get the selling dealer to step up and pay for the repair. ($3500 - $7000, depending on which parts are replaced.) I had discovered that my MH had been in my Winnebago dealers' inventory when we had some flooding on New Year's Day in 2006. Dealer insisted no flooding had occured at their store and all the inventory had been moved prior as a precaution.

While they still the insist above, after I found the picture posted below on the Internet and gave them multiple color copies, on Friday they agreed to pay Workhorse $3500 to replace the ring & pinion gear, bearings and some seals. (Some of the battle was over the fact that they wanted to tow the MH to their shop and do the repairs myself; I felt that it should be done by Workhorse.)

Just goes to show you the power of the Internet... repairs may take another 10 days or so due to the rack & pinion being back-ordered but will post the outcome after repairs are completed.

tderonne · 05-26-2007, 08:51 AM

We had a simlar problem with ours. (Both Ford and Workhorse use the same Dana axles.) There was water in the diff and they found scorch marks where it looks like welding current passed through the bearings. Ford paid for it to be rebuilt, but didn't replace the ring and pinion. It's much quieter now, but still not silent.

Keep us updated on your fix. I think they should have replaced the whole center section on ours. I have a 12 month warranty on the repair, I may take ours to another dealer and see what they think of the noise.

Pubtym · 05-26-2007, 10:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richard 34.5A:
For some time now, I've posted that I have a howl in forth and fifth gear. Not nearly as bad as my previous 1995 Flair on a Ford chassis, but the driveline noise was more than I would have expected on the newer Workhorse chassis.

I had it diagnosed a couple of weeks ago and the fun began; Workhorse found water contamination in the rear differential and said the repair would not be covered by them.

I've spent considerable energy trying to get the selling dealer to step up and pay for the repair. ($3500 - $7000, depending on which parts are replaced.) I had discovered that my MH had been in my Winnebago dealers' inventory when we had some flooding on New Year's Day in 2006. Dealer insisted no flooding had occured at their store and all the inventory had been moved prior as a precaution.

While they still the insist above, after I found the picture posted below on the Internet and gave them multiple color copies, on Friday they agreed to pay Workhorse $3500 to replace the ring & pinion gear, bearings and some seals. (Some of the battle was over the fact that they wanted to tow the MH to their shop and do the repairs myself; I felt that it should be done by Workhorse.)

Just goes to show you the power of the Internet... repairs may take another 10 days or so due to the rack & pinion being back-ordered but will post the outcome after repairs are completed.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outstanding investigative work....wish I could have been with you when you showed the dealership the photo!!

Richard 34A · 05-26-2007, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Richard 34.5A:

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outstanding investigative work....wish I could have been with you when you showed the dealership the photo!![/QUOTE]

The funniest part is they wanted the last word and they still insist that no flooding occured; they claim that is silt and mud, not water, that you see in the image. Of course, you can see reflections of trees and such in that 'silt'.

Okay, the RV store can have the last word on this matter, since they are cutting a check for the entire repair. As far as I'm concerned, they folded their hand due to this picture.

Many thanks to the 'Google's' of the Internet; if you look hard enough, you can almost aways find what you're looking for...

DonavonP · 05-26-2007, 01:07 PM

VERY nice work Richard. I think I've read complaints about this dealer before. I've noticed that you haven't mentioned their name so I won't either. (Hansel and Gretal would be proud of us)

Here's the Google Earth coordinates for the curious. 38 15 57 N 122 39 55 W Drag and pull the N compass to the 4 o'clock position for a look at drier times.

FrontRangeRVer · 05-26-2007, 02:45 PM

Richard...thanks for the good update. This is a good post and shows what you can accomplish with a bit of work and persistence. After that picture, how could the dealer POSSIBLY say that they moved units out of the water???

Richard 34A · 05-26-2007, 03:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DonavonP:
VERY nice work Richard. I think I've read complaints about this dealer before. I've noticed that you haven't mentioned their name so I won't either. (Hansel and Gretal would be proud of us)

Here's the Google Earth coordinates for the curious. 38 15 57 N 122 39 55 W Drag and pull the N compass to the 4 o'clock position for a look at drier times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I have never promised anyone that I wouldn't identify them, in my flood picture that I posted of Petaluma, California, Hansel Toyota is on the left and Hansel RV is on the right. I count approximately 139 rv's in that picture. When I look at the Google Earth image, there are approximately the same amount of units. Interesting, since the sales manager just this last Thursday told me that 'most of the units got moved' and he also told me what I see in the photo is 'silt'.

I truly believe that my MH rear differential took on water during the flood of December 31, 2005 and January 01, 2006; driving it 4,500 miles after contaminating the fluid damaged the ring and pinion. Based on the photo, why didn't the dealer (or even Winnebago and Fleetwood) insist on inspections? What are the chances that no other unit other than mine may have been damaged? Since the rear differential typically isn't even checked until 50k miles, are some owners in for a surprise? I discovered mine just by chance; I complained about a driveline howl that others may not have even noticed.

One thing that still amazes me: how people can say things that absolutely paints them into a corner, forgetting that digital cameras, video surveillance cameras and even camera phones are EVERYWHERE! You just don't know who has what as potential evidence... in this situation, it was even easier: there are extensive pictures of the whole area due to the extreme flooding and $56 million in damages. I just lucked out that I found one that clearly shows the rv store...

Fakrwee · 05-26-2007, 08:37 PM

Wow, we camped at the Petaluma KOA in Sept. of last year before we bought the Suncruiser and almost got a Bounder.form them. The price was almost to good to pass up. I wonder what other sneaky things they might be up to.

Glad things are working out for you. You deserve it. Not every one takes the time and effort to make people pay for thier lies and shady business practices. Bravo.

SCVJeff · 05-26-2007, 11:58 PM

Silt? Please.... That's almost good enough to pick another fight with him. Silt doesn't reflect as does muddy waters. AND, if you had this much silt burying roads beyond the curb, that means there was a considerably higher wash through there in the 1st place.

Izzyblueye · 05-27-2007, 03:48 AM

Richard: Nice job, this dealer should be forced by the A/G to re-call every one of these M/H's that has been sold, for inspection. The balance, if any, should also be inspected and repaired, and "certified" before he is allowed to sell them. I wonder what the chances are he was paid insurance money for most of these.

Mike in Florida · 05-28-2007, 06:15 AM

Someone needs to send this to the California Attorney Generals Office who will initiate a criminal investigation into the sale and disclosure of flood vehicles. There are AT LEAST 138 other unwitting victims out there who are getting screwed because they didn't do the extensive reseacrh that you did.

If the water was high enough to get into the differential, what other parts of the coach did it infiltrate.

These types of dealers MUST be held accountable !

I hope someone from Winnebago Industies picks up this thread. I suspect other area dealers are seeing warranty work as a result of this flooding.

Richard 34A · 05-28-2007, 06:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike in Florida:
Someone needs to send this to the California Attorney Generals Office who will initiate a criminal investigation into the sale and disclosure of flood vehicles. There are AT LEAST 138 other unwitting victims out there who are getting screwed because they didn't do the extensive reseacrh that you did.

If the water was high enough to get into the differential, what other parts of the coach did it infiltrate.

These types of dealers MUST be held accountable !

I hope someone from Winnebago Industies picks up this thread. I suspect other area dealers are seeing warranty work as a result of this flooding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike;

I agree with you; one of my questions is why Winnebago and Fleetwood didn't inspect the vehicles themselves. And IF they say they did, where's the documentation?

Here's a few pictures of underneath the MH; what I thought was 'normal' rust at 6,000k+ miles, now I'm not so sure...

Rear frame rail / fuel tank

Rear suspension / leaf springs (MH is up on yellow jacks, right of shock.)

Hydraulic jack

FrontRangeRVer · 05-28-2007, 12:16 PM

Richard, our motorhome has 7500 miles on it and we have very little chassis rust....and we have driven it in the snow....

Im surprised how much rust is on your shocks...

edgray · 05-28-2007, 01:41 PM

IMHO:the picture labeled "shock" is actually of the Hyd. jack, I believe. Still it is ALL way too rusty, thats for sure. ED

DonavonP · 05-28-2007, 02:24 PM

A coating of ocean salt spray would cause that amount of rust.

Richard 34A · 05-28-2007, 04:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by edgray:
IMHO:the picture labeled "shock" is actually of the Hyd. jack, I believe. Still it is ALL way too rusty, thats for sure. ED </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

edgray;

Your correct! I took a bunch of pictures and then forgot what some of the shots were.

Richard 34A · 05-28-2007, 04:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrontRangeRVer:
Richard, our motorhome has 7500 miles on it and we have very little chassis rust....and we have driven it in the snow....

Im surprised how much rust is on your shocks...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FrontRangeRVer;

I've looked at a few MH's lately that were in for service and checked underneath. Most are lately model and the underside looks alot more like I would expect: minimal rust. Most units I could easily look at the rear leaf spings and they looked like new, most of the black still on them. Looking at mine, there is so much rust that it looks like there was never any paint...

rgrstndgby · 05-28-2007, 06:01 PM

Richard, congtatulations on your detective skills and perseverance. Im impressed, and hope this all comes to a successful conclusion for you. As you might recall from posts I made a couple of weeks ago, I was strongly of the opinion that this MoHo had been dipped, and it looks like it had alot of company. Just eyeballin my W20 Adventurer, it looks like it would take about 6" of water ABOVE the rear axle centerline(center of wheel) to have water begin to enter the axle housing. Anything deeper is only worse. That depth on my Advent. would have water far above the bottom of the storage bins and would surely foul (with silt, grit as well as the water)any open joints in the suspension, and possible the driveline too. I hope they are "up" for a thorough inspection..Again, congrats on your detective skills. I'll have to say tho, I dont see where Winnebago has any responsibility (I didnt say interest!!) in this. To do so would make them the insurer in this deal, a role im sure they won't assume. BTW, was this salt water?..rgr...

jimandsue60 · 05-28-2007, 06:15 PM

It is uncomprehensible to think that those rv's in the lot were sold without some sort of disclosure regarding the flood or inspections..

Is it possibe that the dealership owners left their own personal vehicles there?

Jim