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Old 11-24-2020, 06:42 PM   #1
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Coleman Basement Air 6537

My 05 Journey 34H has a 6537 671 unit in it
I am the second owner of this unit . Previous owner was very old . That being said maintenance was due !
I purchased both plastic blower wheels .
Inner one part # 1472-1151 Outer # 1472-1161 .
Also the new Dayton ball bearings # 2x897, note these have 2 set screws locking it to the motor shaft eliminating horizontal movement Pictures of both old & new style
The unit was working fine and very cold !
When i pulled it and opened it . I find a burnt start Cap .
I believe it was hanging on by a tread and possible jaring in removal made it obvious it needed replacement.
As a test for now , I purchased just one Airxcel start device # 8333A9021
Moving forward with cleaning every thing up I found a lot of dirt in and around the out door blower compartment and on the motor .
This caused me to disassemble it !
The out door motor has a longer shaft than the indoor motor , being 9 inch long and costing a whole lot more !
I would like to change all the caps on the unit .
The out door cap # 1499 5631 on mine is plastic all I seem to find appear to be metal
I realize its not a big deal . Just that a plastic one wont rust.
Any one know where I may find one in plastic ?
Also would like to replace both run caps also .

Now on to the motor part !
It did turn freely . But i decided to inspect / clean it !
When opened I founf particles of oil packing scattered . I decided to pop the seal cap and inspect things further .
Noteing the cost of this motor . Would any one know if replacement packing and or seals are available for this Fasco E504 or # 1468A3029 OD blower ?
Id like to post a few pictures of this for others to view also .
Any A/C knowledge would be greatly appreciated
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:47 PM   #2
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WOW... Those fan run capacitors with those fried relays on top sure look crispy! I'm surprised you said your basement AC would start!

I hear these capacitors burnout when connected to low voltage. And some say they have added a Hughes Autoformer to bring up the line voltage. However, I have not run into that problem.

Why do you think those run caps are so fried?

Here's a link to another Basement AC repair that may help you along with your project. It was created by another forum member. Thanks Jim!

2: Heat Pump - Coleman Mach 6535a-871 | Chaos Leaves Town

* See the tip on how to oil and pack your shaft.

* And I'm not sure, but I think they make roller bearings that are maintenance free??? Do you know?

Note: These may not be the exact Basement AC you have, but the principles are the same.

And here's another thread that is looking for some clarification on the use of Hard Start Capacitors (to only be used on the compressor start caps) that I'm trying to get some definitive answers about:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...de-359467.html

And thank you for posting your summary and tips for the rest of us who have not yet performed any Basement AC maintenance outside of replacing a couple capacitors.
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Old 11-25-2020, 05:53 AM   #3
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On my 2004 Adventurer I just serviced my 6535 basement unit this past fall. All new roller bearings, plastic fan wheels, all capacitors, and new outdoor blower motor. Took my time over a few days.

I used blue locktite on the bearing mounts and motor mount screws. The plastic wheels had locktite on there set screws. I wasn't sure if the bearings were bad on my outside motor or not. Seemed to have a good bit of end play. Your right. Expensive. I keep the old motor as a spare. Take you time getting the blower wheels lined up on the shafts. There isn't a lot of clearance on the indoor wheel to housing cage. I was surprised how heavy the metal indoor blower wheel was.

I was hearing a squealing noise on startup and thought my brass bushings needed oiled or replaced. The noise went away after a few minutes. I decided I would just pull the unit and service all the parts. The brass bushings ended up looking very good. The motors turned free without noise. Unit was pretty quiet before other then that squealing belt type noise at startup.

After service I have not used it much as I only was out once before putting it away for winter. I did get that squeal at startup still but not near as loud and it went away quickly. Compressors maybe? I have a slight rumble from what I think is the outdoor blower that wasn't there before. I noticed that testing the unit before sliding it back into its mount. I wasn't sure if it was a blower wheel balance thing. Will see how things how with it this summer. I kept all my caps for spares. All of mine looked good and tested within spec on my Fluke meter.

When I had the unit out for service I stuffed a blanket in the output duct to keep any animals from going in the duct work since I was going to work on it for a few days and I live out in the country. When we went out for that last trip of the fall I turned the unit on and no air flow inside. The unit then shutdown. Great. After thinking a bit. I said no way I left that blanket in there. I pulled the output duct off the basement unit and out came the blanket. )
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Old 11-25-2020, 11:18 AM   #4
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I thank you both for your in put . It was good reading ! Although all things mentioned , Ive already conqured . In fact I can add to it . On my 6537 , I removed the back panel of the unit , making it easy to remove the out door motor and housing . Also I do not have styrofoam on top . Rather just a thick weather strip around the opening to the A/C filter .
I also have a Fluke meter and would like to know how to testand evaluate the Caps , Compressors , and fan motors .
I did see how the bushing was oiled by drilling a hole in the housing . Although Im beyond that as I have both motor units removed . You mentioned Oiling & re packing the motors . I will re assemble the fan motor and decide if I want to use it or purchase a new one .
I will be calling Grainger , as I have read they may be of help on motor seals .
Im in no rush and want this to be done correct . On a side note , Im very happy my unit does not have rust , ect under its bottom . Its almost like new ! Here is a picture of the dissected brass bearing . Note the brass does not rotate . Its compressed in the housing , making me amazed how oil gets to the shaft -
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Old 11-28-2020, 05:40 AM   #5
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I believe the ONLY way those capacitor terminals would be burned like that is due to the cap being shorted and lots of current flowed - mean caps are useless now - replace them.


use an ohm meter to make sure resistance of cap is very high mega-ohms - if less replace it.


normally essentially zero current flows into/thru a cap as its job is to build up potential voltage/energy but NOT flow current - blocks dc current.

i would replace the caps with same or slightly more capacitance but with 4x or more voltage rating that cap will ever see !!


as to the seals, just get a physical match at a good h/w store or maybe better go to a do everything repair shop or old garage to see if they have stuff to fit.

GL!
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:57 AM   #6
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S/S Would the Airxcell 8333A9021 be OK ?
As Ive purchased two of them Picture above .
Also can you tell me the values Cap . Patt # 29 In this list

http://rvcomfort.com/pdf_documents/r496_copy.pdf

A way to test them with a meter ?
I do want to replace them both also ,
Heres is a picture of what is currently in there .
I read that it can be replaced with 35 0r 45 and I make no cense of what I'm reading . One's i see on the net appear to be encased in metal not plastic if that matters at all
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:49 AM   #7
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In the left hand pic looking at the second line at the left, I see 12.5 uF +/- 10% 370V. The two critical numbers are 12.5 microfarads and 370V maximum voltage.

A quick and dirty test of a capacitor is to set your VOM to ohms on the low scale and hook it to the terminals. The resistance will start low but as the meter charges the capacitor, the resistance will increase into the meg ohms.

If it does that it is probably good. If there is no resistance or it just stays low it is probably an open circuit or an internal short respectively.

David
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:29 PM   #8
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Thank you David . It make cense to me now . Id have not figured that out myself ..
Would there be a so called better / higher , option to use ? Or stick with original values .
I will check it out just to see . But Id guess now would be the time to change it out !
Are there similar ways to check values on the compressors and the blower motors also .
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:42 PM   #9
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I spoke prematurely , as there are videos on the net such as this one .
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:55 PM   #10
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Also , here is one on testing capacitors .
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:23 PM   #11
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If I was doing this, I'd forget about testing the capacitors and replace all of them, saving yourself some work in the future. In the overall scheme of things, the investment is minimal.
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:07 PM   #12
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Oh yes they will be replaced ! I just like to learn new things as I go
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:34 PM   #13
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(** this describes DC characteristics NOT alternating current characteristics !!)

LOW ohms NEVER means an 'open' (open= zero current flow) circuit, ALWAYS means a short or near short !

ex. a diode has low resistance in 1 direction but very high in other direction - the NATURE of the device.

High ohms NEVER means a 'short' (short= very easy current flow), but can mean NO connection to other terminal - NO WAY FOR ELECTRON FLOW.

high ohms can mean an OPEN circuit, OR simply destroyed internals of a device and ZERO internal electron flow path to other terminal - nothing more - you MUST know what to expect of DEVICE before 'interpreting' the measured results.

there are actual capacitance meters and that is ONLY real way to measure capacitance (NOT a direct measure really - indirect, derived)

ONLY thru usage in a real circuit (controlled circuit with all known values - all calibrated including meter to read voltage or current).

that is likely exactly how a capacitance meter likely work, it puts the capacitor into an internal calibrated circuit and measures capacitance INDIRECTLY - but there might be a 'chemical' way to measure liquid capacitor capacitance as well - afaik.
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Old 11-29-2020, 01:53 PM   #14
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Thank you both for the lessons Im trying to learn more on this for my own knowlege and hopefully it may be usefull to others also .

Im not sure at the moment .
If Im using the correct meter to do this .
Although here is what , if im correct . I'm reading . Can you confirm ?
Im in no rush on this job and want to purchase the best components for the job .
Suggestions will be appreciated !
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:42 PM   #15
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It looks right. You're reading 10.7 F (microFarads). Your capacitor is rated at 12.5 F +/- 10%, or 11.0F to 13.5F. Therefore, assuming your meter is reading correctly, your capacitor is -0.3F below lower tolerance limit. I'm guessing will still work but it may be on its way out.

Another thing that's good to know about capacitors is that they're perhaps the most common reason that any electronic apparatus fails. Always check the capacitors first. Electrolytic capacitors like your's, and the smaller ones found in other devices, often show signs of failure via swelling or leaking cases. Your A/C's control board will have small capacitors in its circuitry.

I'm a ham radio operator and it's very common, when fixing vintage radios, to start by "re-capping". The same is true of guitar amps and the like. Even with modern devices with integrated circuitry, capacitors will be found in the power supply and other sections of the device's circuit.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:15 PM   #16
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Thank you Bob !
We are never to old to learn . That one is from the out door blower . Being the most difficult one to change . All I have to do now is decide on witch 2 new ones to purchase .
And get the job done right .
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:20 PM   #17
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always always go for a bit more capacitance but especially higher voltage rating of cap, the capacitance of a cap is what gives the cap its energy storage size - the mo capacitance the higher amt of energy stored.

if a capacitor start for motor, then the cap sees 120v ac, so 4x that 120v should be very safe 'rule of thumb' amt and prevent breakdown of internals, more actual capacitance will never hurt a cap start motor, as it acts as a ac rotational 'pulse' to the internals of elec motor to start it turning - this is a ac motor, so it must rotate at some multiple of 60 hz (cycles per sec), as the magnetic fields both attract and repel the armature portions to rotate the motor.

a dc motor such as in a tesla car can start from 0 rpm and its torque is maximum from >0rpm, unlike nearly all ac motors, THUS why you need that jolt of a/c from discharge of cap to rotate the ac motor from start, past start is absolutely NOT needed & could be removed !

these motors COULD be a dc motor but ac was chosen - there may be a reason or just cheaper - dont know.

if truly interested in this basic electrical stuff, there are both DC and AC basic courses on line - DC is easiest but AC is still basic - of course tailor what you learn to what you NEED to know - take your time.

of course mapping that knowledge to the screwy real world is the hardest part of all, especially crappy wiring setups that some mh makers perform - un labeled wires all over the place !!

winnebago is pretty good about diagrams/drawings but still chasing the wires and connections and locations is ALWAYS a PIA !

knowledge is a SCARY thing, it makes you capable w/ skills and a NON victim to those 'pros' who like YOUR $$ for simple diy jobs !

GL!
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:55 PM   #18
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**** WARNING ****
NEVER EVER put both hands on any voltage especially if a 'path' between hands will allow the voltage to go across your chest/heart - that is what will KILL !!

Use at LEAST a single thick rubber/latex/plastic non-conducting Glove on hands !!
and a single hand will likely NOT allow voltage/current flow (to a ground such as feet) but maybe just a shock. ****

btw, the video guy is completely WRONG on AC being more deadly than DC, but correct on discharging a capacitor before touching it - it can have high voltage still.

DC is ALWAYS ALWAYS MUCH MORE DEADLY to a human (heart), but the voltage has to be pretty high to kill but it is CURRENT that will kill, 12v is usually NOT enuf.

it is WHAT voltage does to the HEART that is what will kill, as AC is alternating - ie going positive then negative voltage, it will generally NOT kill but surely can burn or injure any muscle including heart muscle !!!!!

DC on the other hand will kill at a very low CURRENT amount, the reason is that the heart goes lub-dub, but DC will make it do ONLY ONE OF THOSE - either lub or dub BUT NOT BOTH - it will constrict the movement of muscle and not allow it to contract then relax.

the heart should ALWAYS lub-dub - contract/relax, if not, you are NOW DEAD !!

but otoh, 12v likely has NEVER killed anyone but surely could if current can flow across the chest.

OTOH, ev/elec cars use 400+volts DC (for DC motors which is universal afaik) such as tesla which has ~500+v DC, and would KILL NEARLY INSTANTLY - thus watch those ORANGE wires when working on your tesla motorhome !!!

ps: golfers who golf where lightening storms occur should always know what to do in case of a quick storm passing - if you sense a static elec buildup (and you will know it, it is a bit eerie !!) you should SQUAT w/ BOTH feet together such that the feet touch on the moist ground (next to tree/shelter if possible) and this will hopefully not allow a lightening strike to FLOW thru your body !! EVEN if you just made a HOLE IN ONE - SQUAT or DIE !!




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Originally Posted by Journey cat View Post
Also , here is one on testing capacitors .
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Old 11-30-2020, 09:39 AM   #19
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Is there a polarity to these capacitors? My old and new ones had no markings on the casings and the terminals were to same length. If I recall my Fluke Meter had a negative symbol when I reversed the leads reading capacitance.
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Old 11-30-2020, 09:58 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cef2lion View Post
Is there a polarity to these capacitors? My old and new ones had no markings on the casings and the terminals were to same length. If I recall my Fluke Meter had a negative symbol when I reversed the leads reading capacitance.
The wiring diagram (pg. 28) of the Service manual shows a symbol on one of the tabs, so I
think they are polarized.

http://www.rvcomfort.com/pdf_documen...408_copy10.pdf

This is the reason I always take a photo of the wiring before I start pulling wires off.
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