Coleman Basement Air 6537

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Journey cat

I cant put a time on the job because I spent a lot of time cleaning the unit and changing the pesky screws on the bottom of the unit , Changing a rusted tubing clamp . And using a SS clamp , now . And I milked the job only putting an hour or so in it at a time . As I knew i could not go forward due to availability of parts . All in all , I believe it was apart about a month - or so , because of the Holidays .

The first picture in this tread , you can see the smaller compartment above the indoor blower . In it one can easily change , Compressor Rum Caps , Blower Start Caps , Relays . Also its easy to remove the lower panel and change the indoor motor Run cap . The only one hard to do without removing the unit is the Out door Run Cap . And motor or compressors .

I was asking SoCo40 how much it cost him.

[Journey cat]

My bad !
I should have quoted , IMNPRSD . But it worthy for others to know also

[SmilingSimon]

nothing mystical about capacitors, same for inductors - but capacitors will/can store voltage for some time - the higher quality cap the longer it will store it - days and weeks maybe, but always some discharge so will not last for years !!


as you may have read elsewhere but it is ok to have more capacitance that was original but most importantly is to have at least the amount of voltage capacity, the higher the better - but never go below for either.


if you must, then go lower for the capacitance but not much, the voltage rating really is just for safety, but if way lower then CAN cause capacitor to explode or break down very quickly.


*** always always discharge ANY size capacitor - no need to be crazy scared just make sure you are isolated and just use any metallic thing to short the terminals, but stay away from flammable material when doing so - sparks !!!!!

Originally Posted by Journey cat

I consider all the input on Capacitors very valuable.
I have knowledge coming from a family with 3 electricians , one of witch rebuilt motors as he was in heating repair . Unfortunately , I no longer can ask any of them.
Myself I have replaced / upgraded main panels to houses from 150 A to 200 A .
And Installed circuits for lights , fans , outlets & alarms , ect. .
Caps Ill admit I have limited knowledge on .
As some have said , they have no name on them , others made in China such as Supco . Others may not have info printed on them .
I would like one that is so called over rated .
Today I went to a local electrical store ive used before . And was told they don't deal with Caps . Also have been to Granger witch has , Dayton 45 Microfarad Rating,370VAC Voltage.
it's difficult for me to make a decision .
Im getting tired searching the net . Please , pick me a winner !
So I can move forward on this project .

[SmilingSimon]

there is no reason for concerning yourself with using 'oem' capacitors as they are nearly all made elsewhere.


matter of fact, the higher quality caps are generally used in audio equipment, audiophiles spend big $$ to have the highest quality caps, but there are 'discount' suppliers of caps, resistors, inductors, etc (all used in speaker crossovers as well as elec amps, pre-amps, etc)


just make sure of the size/ratings and it should be fine !

[Animalangel]

Hi folks.... excuse me. Can I just jump in here with a really quick question related to the same basement heating-a/c system?

Mine is the 6535-671 and the service manual for it is also for the 6537-671 so we all have the same stuff.

Mine works great EXCEPT for a Godawful, extremely loud vibration (primarily when using heat) so despite freezing to death I'm not using it right now (using space heaters but they are killing my electric bill) because I don't want to damage anything. I have a residential HVAC tech coming out next week to service it for me and see if he can figure out what's causing the noise while he's at it.

He has asked what kind of refrigerant it needs so he can bring some with him in case it needs to be topped off or something. I can't find that information.

Help?

Thanks in advance.

[imnprsd]

Animalangel: All these Coleman-Mach (2-Ton) ACs have their own manuals. In this case my/your 6535-671 uses the same parts as "JourneyCat's" 6537-671 basement AC even though his layout is different inside the box.

The diagrams above shows my/your 6535-671 layout and attached to this thread is the right parts manual for this AC.

Note: I read somewhere that the "pressure relief" valve can stick. I think this has to do with the AC not putting out enough heat. (Just a guess.) And since you mentioned you have a loud noise when running in heat mode, I wonder if this pressure relief valve might be the problem.

Note: I don't run my AC that often in heat mode, but I do remember it making more noise in heat mode. Maybe someone else can tell you why and what to do if the noise you hear is really loud? ...Maybe if your Run Capacitor is out of spec that is all you need to do to fix this problem?

Note: You cannot get to the pressure relief valve, or anywhere inside your basement AC for that matter, unless you remove it from the the frame, and that's a couple more hours of work vs the 45 minutes needed to check and replace capacitors by just opening up the electrical box.

Also, if your rig has a lot of AC time on it; then maybe replacing the two 45uF Run Caps, 2 Start Caps, and 2 relays will give your AC the tune-up it needs?

Final Note: If the noise you are having is ONLY present when you first start your AC then maybe bumping up your Start Capacitor from 88-108uF value to 135-162uF to help your compressor start easier. This capacitors are only $22 for two:

https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-Capacit...3&sr=8-24&th=1

...And then you need to decide if you keep your WSX7 Motor Starter or replace it?

I just don't know where you buy just the WSX7 these days so please let us know your source when you find one? $20 each should be a fair price, but I have seen them go for $35 each, and you need two.

This is what I call the Poor Man's Hard Start Kit and it only affects the start circuit. Note: The SPP6 has both the Motor Starter and the Start Capacitor-in-one, but it's built rather cheaply. ...Some AC techs love them and some hate them. ...Think of the SPP6 as the "shark bite" for ACs. ...And if you are a plumber you know what I mean. ...Personally, the SPP6 is so cheap, and available, that this is a viable option if you breakdown in the field you need AC today! ...If then, then I recommend you order the stock parts on Amazon in advance.

* You always want to keep the Run Capacitor matched to the compressor, which in this case is a Matsushita/Panasonic compressor which calls for a 45uF Capacitors (x2 since you have two compressors).

Your 2-ton basement AC works on the same principles as a residential AC so your tech should feel at home.

For your benefit: There is the start-up phase followed by the run phase. The thermostat makes "calls" to turn "on" or "off" the AC. Your thermostat is only switched +/- 2 degrees F. And if you are trying to get your Basement AC to heat up your RV when the outside temperature is less than 38F then you are SOL, because these heat pumps are NOT designed to work at lower temperatures. (Did you know that?)

Please keep us posted. If you have not checked your capacitor values in 5 years it's worth checking them and tuning-up your AC now since you have a qualified tech showing up. Good luck.

[SoCo40]

BobC

If that question was for me the unit from Visone was $1200 + 200 shipping to a local UPS hub. It was tested good before shipping and packaged well. The unit I took out was gone through cleaned and oiled. Service ports installed on both stages with one side recharged. Think AC service bill was $450. The compressor that I ended up not needing and sent back was $475 if I remember correctly. Could have had original unit back in for just under $1000. My AC unit is for sale. Needs a compressor sweated in and charged. Solid unit but all of this was going on with Covid at a peak and the Visone unit just came in first.

[SoCo40]

Animalangel

The type of refrigerant will be posted on the ID plate on the end of your unit or should be. Mine used R22. Along with info for starters, compactors and such. Hope this helps!

[Animalangel]

imnprsd

Ok.. wow, that's a lot of stuff that I don't understand at all. Was your entire post meant for me or was it supposed to be in response to someone else as well? Also.. I just got my motorhome in April (took possession on April 10, 2020, to be exact). I have no idea how much time is on the heating system and stuff... I'm still finding new stuff every week I had no idea about. I've never had a motorhome, or ever known anyone who had a motorhome, in my entire life. It's like I'm all alone and just found a cavern on the moon and now I have to explore. That said, I have not found any manual for the heating system with the collection that came with the RV. In fact, there seems to be a lot of stuff missing and I'm not just talking about manuals and documents.
***********************************************

SoCo40

You mean the info is on the unit itself someplace? I will have to remove that compartment panel (if that's what you call it) to find that..... I haven't figured out how to do that yet either.

I guess if it warms up a bit outside I'll go see if I can figure out how to open it. I'm in a very rural area so he wants to have stuff "on hand" when he arrives because there's no place around here to go and pick up any parts in a few minutes. I also don't want to pay him for 1 1/2 to 2 hours (or more) of driving around searching for parts in the nearest big town 20 miles away (one direction).

Thanks.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by SoCo40

BobC

If that question was for me the unit from Visone was $1200 + 200 shipping to a local UPS hub. It was tested good before shipping and packaged well. The unit I took out was gone through cleaned and oiled. Service ports installed on both stages with one side recharged. Think AC service bill was $450. The compressor that I ended up not needing and sent back was $475 if I remember correctly. Could have had original unit back in for just under $1000. My AC unit is for sale. Needs a compressor sweated in and charged. Solid unit but all of this was going on with Covid at a peak and the Visone unit just came in first.

Personally, rather than spend that much money on repairing an old unit, I think I'd go for replacement.

[SoCo40]

At that time it was mid Aug. HOT and wife gets ANGRY when hot. Replacement was out of a salvage MH. Took the gamble, good looking unit. Used it and hoping I didn't mess up because mine is a good unit. Just had a leak.

Info on mine was on outside corner. Might be able to see by just lifting MH side panel. It was located beside electric feed going into unit. If you can't see like that it only takes a while to slide unit out enough so you can. Should not even need anything to set AC unit on at this point. You will need to have pallets, buckets or something ready for service tech or already have AC out. My AC feed wire was long enough to have AC on pallets and still be hooked up for trouble shooting. I pulled mine and reinstalled, first timer. Just take your time. Any help or questions just ask. Every is here to help!!!

[SoCo40]

2002 Journey QD Two ton +

[imnprsd]

Animalangel: Not to fret. You bought a very nice RV and most people don't get that lucky out of the gate.

I recommend you monitor this forum and www.IRV2.com to learn about your RV systems.

IMO, you should not replace what you have if your AC works. Does it?

IMO, if you are trying to use your heat pump with the outside air temperature lower than 38F then you need to know your Basement AC (with heat pump) is not designed for this. How cold is it outside?

IMO, you should order these parts before you hire a tech to service your AC, because that's all any one can do by lifting the AC door and performing a basement AC service in 1.0 hours or 1.5 hours if you help/learn:

* 2 new 45uF run capacitors

https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-370-440...n%2C288&sr=8-5

* 2 new 135-162 start capacitors

https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-135-162...RPJHKB6PZCNG73

* 2 new WSX7 Motor Starters or you can reuse your motor starters if they show no visible signs of physical damage... caused by operating your AC with low shore voltage.

Note: If your WSX7 Motor Starters are not in good shape, and you cannot buy WSX7 individually, then you an buy a Supco-SPP6 "Hard Start Kit" that includes both your Start Capacitor and your WSX7 Motor Starter in one device. ...Your tech will now how to install or you can do it by removing the old Start Capacitor Hard Start Kit and installing the SPP6 (just 2 wires) in parallel with your 45uF run capacitor. (EASYPIEZY!)

Here is the only source I found on the internet that sells just the WSX7 Motor Starter, which is to say I don't know if you can order one:

https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com...er-motor-wsx-7

The SPP6 is widely available and very cheap:
https://www.amazon.com/SPP6-Hard-Sta...dDbGljaz10cnVl

Note: I'm recommending a "bump-up" in your Start Capacitor. Your stock stock capacitor is rated for 88-108uF and I am suggesting you use a start capacitor in the 135-162uF range to help your compressor start easier.

* 2 Compressor relays

https://www.amazon.com/TE-CONNECTIVI...strial&sr=1-13

These are the things every owner can do themselves if they have a basic mechanical aptitude... and are armed with the schematics above.

LEVEL TWO BASEMENT AC REPAIRS... require you to remove the basement AC from it's mounts and then you pull the entire 200 lb box out of the RV so you can remove the lid. Then you can replace the "Overload Device" and "Coil Solenoid" on top of the compressor (if your AC will not start); or you may need to get inside to replace a compressor (which is not common); or you may need to replace a dry bushing and/or oil the old one you have.

QUESTION: Does your basement AC make noise in both the heat pump mode and when you run the AC in chill mode? ...If so, and your capacitors are in spec, then maybe you have a cracked blower wheel or a bad bushing. Likewise, I mentioned the "reversing valve" may need replacing since you are complaining about noise in heat mode. ... And for all of these repairs you need to take the AC out of the frame rails.

Also, the best way to get familiar with your AC system is to watch the tech at work. IMO, you need to make sure replace these parts, before you go to the trouble of pulling your AC out of the frame. (2hrs + 2 hours for repairs... and then you want to buy new blower wheels and replace that 8-3/4" shaft bushing with a ball bearing.

These basement AC are very reparable and function just like a residential AC.
However, replacing the compressor seems to be the bag-a-boo, because they don't make these R-22 compressors any more, and you have to remove the AC from the frame to replace it.

Note: If you suspect a compressor problem, then I think your tech can measure the compressor coil resistance with out pulling the AC out if you show him the circuit diagram schematic before hand and give him the ohm ratings. Only then would I commit to pulling the unit out... if these resistance values are out of spec.

Also, your tech probably has never seen a 12V (9-wire) Thermostat, but he will understand these wire diagrams if you show them to him. ...And remember, you have 2 compressors (plus 2 of everything else) in this basement AC, but the principles are the same as a residential AC unit any qualified HVAC tech can figure out.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Animalangel

Hi folks.... excuse me. Can I just jump in here with a really quick question related to the same basement heating-a/c system?

Mine is the 6535-671 and the service manual for it is also for the 6537-671 so we all have the same stuff.

Mine works great EXCEPT for a Godawful, extremely loud vibration (primarily when using heat) so despite freezing to death I'm not using it right now (using space heaters but they are killing my electric bill) because I don't want to damage anything. I have a residential HVAC tech coming out next week to service it for me and see if he can figure out what's causing the noise while he's at it.

He has asked what kind of refrigerant it needs so he can bring some with him in case it needs to be topped off or something. I can't find that information.

Help?

Thanks in advance.

Note that the heat pump function of your air conditioner will probably use more electricity than an electric space heater. A space heater converts about 99.9% of the energy to heat. The AC heat pump has all the mechanical components to operate before it generates the heat so it is less efficient.

As others wrote:
-- the heat pump on this unit is not designed to work very well at outside temps below 35-40 degrees.
-- If the cooling part works, just use the forced air propane furnace or the electric space heaters.

It is very unlikely the residential AC guy will want to be involved in removing the basement AC from the RV to work on it. I think others wrote you won't be able to access the connectors to service the AC unless you pull the unit out.

Most of us really love the basement air until it needs to be serviced then we hate it.

If you are staying put in one place you can have a propane dealer bring out a big 100 gallon (400-500 pound) propane tank to connect to you RV.

If your RV doesn't have an "extend-a-stay" adapter at your propane tank you will need to install one. Go to Amazon and do a search for "RV extend a stay" and there will be several shown.

If you want info about installing the Extend-a-Stay" start a new topic/thread and ask for info about installing one. Be sure to give the year, make & model of your RV if you start a new topic.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Animalangel

Hi folks.... excuse me. Can I just jump in here with a really quick question related to the same basement heating-a/c system?

Mine is the 6535-671 and the service manual for it is also for the 6537-671 so we all have the same stuff.

Mine works great EXCEPT for a Godawful, extremely loud vibration (primarily when using heat) so despite freezing to death I'm not using it right now (using space heaters but they are killing my electric bill) because I don't want to damage anything. I have a residential HVAC tech coming out next week to service it for me and see if he can figure out what's causing the noise while he's at it.

He has asked what kind of refrigerant it needs so he can bring some with him in case it needs to be topped off or something. I can't find that information.

Help?

Thanks in advance.

Is there any chance the vibration/noise is coming from the propane forced air furnace? When it is running you can feel air coming from the floor vents. The heat pump air comes from the ceiling vents.

Note that the thermostat will turn on the furnace if the heat pump is not heating up the inside of the RV fast enough. It may take 15-45 minutes for the thermostat to detect that the RV is not heating up fast enough, or is cooling off even though the heat pump is on.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Animalangel

imnprsd

Ok.. wow, that's a lot of stuff that I don't understand at all. Was your entire post meant for me or was it supposed to be in response to someone else as well? Also.. I just got my motorhome in April (took possession on April 10, 2020, to be exact). I have no idea how much time is on the heating system and stuff... I'm still finding new stuff every week I had no idea about. I've never had a motorhome, or ever known anyone who had a motorhome, in my entire life. It's like I'm all alone and just found a cavern on the moon and now I have to explore. That said, I have not found any manual for the heating system with the collection that came with the RV. In fact, there seems to be a lot of stuff missing and I'm not just talking about manuals and documents.
***********************************************

SoCo40

You mean the info is on the unit itself someplace? I will have to remove that compartment panel (if that's what you call it) to find that..... I haven't figured out how to do that yet either.

I guess if it warms up a bit outside I'll go see if I can figure out how to open it. I'm in a very rural area so he wants to have stuff "on hand" when he arrives because there's no place around here to go and pick up any parts in a few minutes. I also don't want to pay him for 1 1/2 to 2 hours (or more) of driving around searching for parts in the nearest big town 20 miles away (one direction).

Thanks.

Here is a link to the Winnebago operator/owners manuals if you don't have one: https://www.winnebago.com/owners/own...erator-manuals

[imnprsd]

To Animalangel: If your tech is thinking he can recharge your unit, he probably is of the opinion he can easily access the compressor service ports, but this is not the case.

Further, if you are complaining about a loud noise in heat mode and your basement AC blows cold air, then the problem is not low or leaking refrigerant. (R-22)

Of course, it may be impossible to know if the cold air mode is not working when the outside air temperature in 50F or less.

WHAT IS THE OUTDOOR TEMPERATURE RANGE?

GENERAL COMMENTS

RV heat pumps are not that efficient. No heat pumps are, because they are designed to run "optimally" in cool mode.

You system uses R22 and you cannot service it unless you pull your basement AC "off the rails." This I understand is a 1.5 hour effort getting it out. (Hopefully less.)

My layman's guess is that the noise you are experiencing IN HEAT MODE is from the vibrations in the blower assembly caused by the compressor working too hard... and vibrating the entire box through its floor mounts. So the very first check your tech can do is check/replace your 45uF RUN CAPACITORS (2). And maybe that is all that is needed?

Note: The Start Capacitors are only "in the loop" when you start the AC and then it drops out of the circuit thanks to the PTCR in the Motor Starter blocking current flow.

Secondarily, I theorize that if you find the noise is mostly/only present when you start your AC, then you might try using the next size up on your Start Compressor, which is 135-162uF for this 2-Ton Basement AC and you have 2 of these. Likewise, you need to check the condition of your WSX7 Motor Starter. Both of which is easy and will only take 1 hour so I hope this is all you need to do. (TBD)

Note: Once you get your AC out of the RV then I think any residential HVAC tech can service/repair it, because it functions just like a residential unit using a PTCR type motor starter vs. a 5-2-1 relay. I.e., don't use a 5-2-1 unless you know what you are doing... and/or use your RV in 105F+ weather and are having problems with your basement AC re-starting.

The picture below is my compressor spec sheet so you can see the amount of R-22 you need for each compressor. Note: I do not know if you can get an accurate compressor coil measurement by disconnect wires in the junction box. You can try it to see if you have a short or more likely and "open" circuit, but if you do then you basement AC should be very hard to start... and you may blow your circuit breaker, but this is just a guess.

[imnprsd]

One owner emailed me and said he removed the OEM Hard Start Kit (88-108uF + WSX7 Motor Starter with PTCR) and he replaced it with a Supco SPP4E.

The Supco SPP4E is rated for 120V and it has "E" for electronic circuitry that replaces the PTCR switch, and the capacitor used is 88-106uF. So this maybe a drop-in replacement for your OEM Hard Start Kit. $22-$26 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Supco-SPP6E-E...4196817&sr=8-2

The "E" relay inside may be better suited for AC use in climates that commonly exceed 105F+. So, if you find your AC will not re-start in hot weather, then this modification may be for you, because the "E" designed relay is not affected by temperature (normal or hot weather) like the OEM Motor Starter #WSX7 with PTC-R is affected.

Why is that? A PTC-Relay operates in a normally closed state between 22-ohms and 1000-ohms. And above 1000-ohms the PTC opens the circuit and prevents current from flowing through the start capacitor, which is what you want after the compressor starts.

To help the compressor start, however, each of your 2 compressors needs the start capacitor to be "in the circuit." And when the OAT is 100F, sometimes the PTC does not always reclose it's bi-metal switch. So starting your AC compressors may not be possible until the PTC has more time to cool off.

...And you know it gets real hot inside that WSX7-PTCR, because we can see that some have melted!!!


Solution: It would appear the SPP4E as a easier solution to installing a 5-2-1 APR5 relay. However, I cannot say what happens to the "E" circuit in the SPP4E when you try to star your AC with low voltage. ...Not that you should, but as pointed out, we know the WSX7-PTCR melts, but keeps working. ...So, all I can add, is that we all should check for supply voltage before we plug-in!

What is the risk to any hard start kit? ...Answer: If that the PTC-R in the WSX7, or the "E-Relay" in the SPP4E does not open; and that leaves the start capacitor "in the circuit," this will overheat the compressor windings, and then your compressor may burn out.

OTHER COMMENTS

The PTCR has proven reliable, so I would not change it if are not having start problems.

What I would try, after you verify your OEM start and run capacitors are in spec, and your WSX7 = 22 ohms, and your thermostat is working right, here's a few suggestions:

* Verify the led lights on your compressor board are lit up properly. (Research this. I can't go into this subject here.)

* Replace the 2 Compressor Relays (#T92P7D22-12, 2-Pack $25-$30)

* If no improvement, then bump up your start capacitor values from 88-108uF to 135-162uF and keep using your WSX7-PTCR Motor Starter.

Note: Do not change the value of your OEM Run Capacitor.

And if you still can't get your compressor to start you need to do some circuit board tests.

Once you confirm all your outside electrical circuits are testing "normal," then you may have to remove the basement AC from the frame to get to the inside the box to test the "Overload" device... unless someone else can tell us they have successfully done this from the outside?

I believe it should be possible to do a continuity test on the Overload Circuit from outside the box, but I have never done it.