2000 Adventurer Coleman Mach Heat Pump/Basement air AND LP furnace issues, EMS issues

[Bubbie]

Hey all,
Shocking. A NOOB PNW RV'er who procrastinates and waits until we get this record heat to REALLY try and diagnose/troubleshoot/repair my 2 stage basement AC/heat pump. I think there's a handful of contributing issues due to one specific instance...information below. Any help/insight/advice would be much appreciated.
Apologies in regards to being all over the place and providing tons of (seemingly random but detailed) info, just trying to cover all of what I've experienced to aid in remedy.

Details:
-2000 Winnebago Adventurer 35u
-RVP 6535-871 2 stage heat pump/ AC
-30 AMP shore power (w/ adapter from 50AMP house plug)

I'll start with what I believe to have originally started all of this.

IDK exactly what happened...but while running the heat pump in a cold winter, we may have over loaded AMPS and tripped an AC circuit breaker. We also lost ALL shore power at this time. After checking and resetting breakers with no change we discovered the 50to30A adapter had burnt up on female side.

Replaced adapter. Shore power restored.

After that issue, the heat pump failed to work. Regardless of what temp thermostat was set to, no click from thermostat, no start up of heat pump etc.

We quickly resorted to switching to LP gas heat. When thermostat was switched to LP, also no change. No click of thermostat, no turning on of fan blower, no igniting of gas furnace ETC.

After trial and error/troubleshooting, I discovered that If I turned AC circuit 1 breaker off, the gas furnace worked as it should. Thermostat would be adjusted as needed and heater worked as should. We lived like this for the rest of winter, with AC circuit 1 off.

Admittedly didn't think much of this issue until now. Wondering if the AC would work, I began testing. With all appliances/lights/fans off and/or switched to LP, I switched thermostat to cool fan on high.

Fan immediately comes on, thermostat clicks and amps spike to approx 30amp for startup. It immediately settles down as (I assume) compressor 1 starts and amps drop to roughly high teens/early twenties.
Amps slowly increase to high twenties and into 30 as I assume compressor #2 engages and starts.

This only happens and unit runs for approximately 1 minute before over amping (into low 30s) and shutting off or simply/quickly just shutting off. And by shutting off, I mean just shutting down. No breakers (AC circuit 1 or AC circuit 2) are tripped.
I have discovered that there is a red rubber "reset button" that is tripped in the control board area at this time and that needs to be reset before another attempt can be made.

Some additional details, curiosities -
-Basement unit Fan (ONLY) runs well in both high and low and uses about 4AMPS.
-Tried to use our ONAN 5000W generator and same thing happened above, however AMPS never made it above 28/29 before AC unit shut down.
-VERY little to no cold air is seemingly blowing during what little time I Assume compressor one is working before shut down.

EMS Powerline by Intellitec seems suspect as well.
-LED indicator lights for Water heater and AC Compressor / FAN are always illuminated and do not turn off when WH breaker or AC circuit breakers are flipped. I have confirmed there to be no Electric WH power to WH when breaker is flipped, however again, LED indicator is still present on EMS.

My initial thoughts given all of these issues between both EMS and AC/Heat operations is something to do with our Convertor OR our AC/Heat circuit board.

I've NOT checked Caps, relays, etc, but will. LED lights on circuit board appear to be working as should.

I have some electrical knowledge and tools and am willing to try most anything...and have too much pride/ ego and not enough $$$ to call a tech for diagnosis at this time.


Perhaps someone may shed some light?

Please LMK and LMK if I need to provide any more info etc!

Thank you!

Riley in Tacoma

[BobC]

I know where you're coming from in wanting to figure this out without calling for service, which can be difficult to find.

You say you've tried "trial and error/troubleshooting". Does this mean you haven't tried the formal, manufacturer's troubleshooting process? If not, I'd start there. Here's a link to the service manual:

http://www.rvcomfort.com/pdf_documen...6323_copy8.pdf

I know, from personal experience, how tempting it is to take a shotgun approach to all this, but step-by-step plodding along is the way to go.

Now that's out of the way, here's my 2 cents, and that's about all it's worth.

1. The good news is that your unit runs and both compressors kick in and run, even if not for long. However, The high amp draws of 30 and above are troublesome. These units were designed to start and run on 30A, even though there's not much headroom for anything else. I can run mine at home on 20A on one compressor.

2. I'm puzzled by the red rubber reset button. I did a word search on the service manual and the only button mentioned is the temperature selection button on the thermostat. Is it labeled in any way, can you find it on the diagram in the service manual, I can't? I did find a link that shows a new replacement board that's slightly different. It does have a push button labeled SW1, but it doesn't say what the function is, which could be key. Could your board be one of these replacements?

http://www.rvcomfort.com/pdf_documents/6535c3209.pdf

3. When you run your generator, it's my understanding that the additional amps it supplies will not show on your EMS (I know this is dumb and makes no sense), so you really don't know how many amps are being drawn at shutdown on generator power unless you use a clamp-on ammeter. These aren't very expensive and one with both AC and DC amp-reading capability make troubleshooting a lot easier. Amazon has a lot of them for under $40, just be sure the clamp isn't AC only. Are both breakers on your generator "on".

4. The high amp draws of 30 and above are troublesome. These units were designed to start and run on 30A, even though there's not much headroom for anything else. If it was shutting down at lower levels, I'd suspect your control board (although it could still be part of the problem).

5. The only role your converter plays is to provide 12V power when hooked up to shore power and, given the amp draw issues, etc., I don't think it's involved. In any case, if your batteries are in good condition, the converter wouldn't be contributing anything.

6. If you haven't seen it, while you're waiting for those that know more than me to chime in, this video is a good one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTq7LuWHihU

There have also been a few recent Winnieowners posts about basement A/Cs:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3896135

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3897184

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...de-359467.html

Good luck.

[imnprsd]

Here's a few comments, because I only have a few minutes:

* Your blown ATS may have caused a your Thermostat some problems, but that's only if your thermostat has an LCD and your display is reading funny. If it's not then it's probably okay.

* The higher than usual current draw probably occurred when your second compressor tried to restart... and when you do check your #2 Start Circuit you will probably find your motor starter (WSX5) is "open" now and will measure 1100 ohms. How do I know? This happened to me last month.

* You definitely need to make it a priority to check your Start and Run CAP values, but the real risk of not checking is if one of those Motor Starter (PTCR) have failed in the "closed" position and they are not taking the Start Capacitor out of the circuit, buy switching "off".

* If you have never done any maintenance to your system, I would order all these parts on Amazon:

2 Run Caps (either 45uF or 30uF) depending on your compressor type

2 Start Caps (Typically 88-108uF) and 2 Motor Starters usually sold as a Hard Start Kit By Dometic For $45 each Kit; or you can buy 2 SPP4E Hard Start Kits in the $25 range.

1 7.5uF Indoor Blower Motor Capacitor
1 12.5uF Outdoor Blower Motor Capacitor

2 Compressor Relay T92P7D22-12 (2-Pack On Ebay $25)

Then just be sure you take pictures before you start replacing ONE PART AT A TIME so you don't mix up the wires.

Note: When I replaced all these parts on my 2004 Coleman Mach, the 12.5uF capacitor was not present in the basement AC junction box, and I don't know why? Maybe the previous owner left it inside the box when they repaired it 10 years ago according to my records.

Does anyone know if they can wire the other capacitors in such a way that they can do away with the 12.5uF Outdoor Blower Capacitor?

As for that red button, I don't have one, but my Coleman Mach manual says the older units came with one. (See diagram below.)

Note: The wire colors in the diagram below do not always match the application.

[Bubbie]

Originally Posted by BobC

I know where you're coming from in wanting to figure this out without calling for service, which can be difficult to find.

You say you've tried "trial and error/troubleshooting". Does this mean you haven't tried the formal, manufacturer's troubleshooting process? If not, I'd start there. Here's a link to the service manual:

http://www.rvcomfort.com/pdf_documen...6323_copy8.pdf

I know, from personal experience, how tempting it is to take a shotgun approach to all this, but step-by-step plodding along is the way to go.

Now that's out of the way, here's my 2 cents, and that's about all it's worth.

1. The good news is that your unit runs and both compressors kick in and run, even if not for long. However, The high amp draws of 30 and above are troublesome. These units were designed to start and run on 30A, even though there's not much headroom for anything else. I can run mine at home on 20A on one compressor.

2. I'm puzzled by the red rubber reset button. I did a word search on the service manual and the only button mentioned is the temperature selection button on the thermostat. Is it labeled in any way, can you find it on the diagram in the service manual, I can't? I did find a link that shows a new replacement board that's slightly different. It does have a push button labeled SW1, but it doesn't say what the function is, which could be key. Could your board be one of these replacements?

http://www.rvcomfort.com/pdf_documents/6535c3209.pdf

3. When you run your generator, it's my understanding that the additional amps it supplies will not show on your EMS (I know this is dumb and makes no sense), so you really don't know how many amps are being drawn at shutdown on generator power unless you use a clamp-on ammeter. These aren't very expensive and one with both AC and DC amp-reading capability make troubleshooting a lot easier. Amazon has a lot of them for under $40, just be sure the clamp isn't AC only. Are both breakers on your generator "on".

4. The high amp draws of 30 and above are troublesome. These units were designed to start and run on 30A, even though there's not much headroom for anything else. If it was shutting down at lower levels, I'd suspect your control board (although it could still be part of the problem).

5. The only role your converter plays is to provide 12V power when hooked up to shore power and, given the amp draw issues, etc., I don't think it's involved. In any case, if your batteries are in good condition, the converter wouldn't be contributing anything.

6. If you haven't seen it, while you're waiting for those that know more than me to chime in, this video is a good one:

There have also been a few recent Winnieowners posts about basement A/Cs:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3896135

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3897184

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...de-359467.html

Good luck.

Originally Posted by imnprsd

Here's a few comments, because I only have a few minutes:

* Your blown ATS may have caused a your Thermostat some problems, but that's only if your thermostat has an LCD and your display is reading funny. If it's not then it's probably okay.

* The higher than usual current draw probably occurred when your second compressor tried to restart... and when you do check your #2 Start Circuit you will probably find your motor starter (WSX5) is "open" now and will measure 1100 ohms. How do I know? This happened to me last month.

* You definitely need to make it a priority to check your Start and Run CAP values, but the real risk of not checking is if one of those Motor Starter (PTCR) have failed in the "closed" position and they are not taking the Start Capacitor out of the circuit, buy switching "off".

* If you have never done any maintenance to your system, I would order all these parts on Amazon:

2 Run Caps (either 45uF or 30uF) depending on your compressor type

2 Start Caps (Typically 88-108uF) and 2 Motor Starters usually sold as a Hard Start Kit By Dometic For $45 each Kit; or you can buy 2 SPP4E Hard Start Kits in the $25 range.

1 7.5uF Indoor Blower Motor Capacitor
1 12.5uF Outdoor Blower Motor Capacitor

2 Compressor Relay T92P7D22-12 (2-Pack On Ebay $25)

Then just be sure you take pictures before you start replacing ONE PART AT A TIME so you don't mix up the wires.

Note: When I replaced all these parts on my 2004 Coleman Mach, the 12.5uF capacitor was not present in the basement AC junction box, and I don't know why? Maybe the previous owner left it inside the box when they repaired it 10 years ago according to my records.

Does anyone know if they can wire the other capacitors in such a way that they can do away with the 12.5uF Outdoor Blower Capacitor?

As for that red button, I don't have one, but my Coleman Mach manual says the older units came with one. (See diagram below.)

Note: The wire colors in the diagram below do not always match the application.

Thank you BOTH for your words of advice and recommendations!
I'll follow back up shortly with any progress made and some response to specifics mentioned in these replies.

I too am running short on time today!


Thanks again ya'll

[catmandoo62]

if i remember correctly to run both compressors you have to be on a 50 amp service.this could be why you fried the one plug on the 30 amp cord.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by catmandoo62

if i remember correctly to run both compressors you have to be on a 50 amp service.this could be why you fried the one plug on the 30 amp cord.

These A/C units were designed to run on 30A if nothing else was drawing significant power. The EMS would manage this and shut down compressor 2 if there wasn't enough power available due to other loads.

What puzzles me is why your adapter would have fried. I only have 30A service in my 2002 35U and my EMS defaults to 30A. I don't know how it would work if I had 50A service in terms of whether or not it would always default to 50A or if it would sense that it's only receiving power from two of it's three (non-ground) wires and automatically switch to 30A.

Nonetheless, even if your EMS was set on 50A, if your MH tried to draw more than 30A, I would have expected the shore power breaker to trip before anything else would trip or fail. It's possible that the adapter was faulty.

[catmandoo62]

in my 99 vectra grand tour owners manual section 6 page one states to get full benefit of the air conditioning(both compressors) a 50 amp service is required.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by catmandoo62

in my 99 vectra grand tour owners manual section 6 page one states to get full benefit of the air conditioning(both compressors) a 50 amp service is required.

It's possible that your Vectra has a different A/C model or doesn't have the EMS system to manage the loads that the 2000 Adventurer has.

In the 2000 Adventurer, you can run both compressors on 30A, but not necessarily all the time. I have a 2002 Itasca Suncruiser 35U and I've done it. Now, you're not going to be able to do so and use your microwave, toaster, hair dryer or any number or combination of appliances while you do so. This is from the 2000 Adventurer owners manual (pg. 6.2):

"POWERLINE TM ENERGY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (EMS)
The energy management system (EMS) monitors the electrical usage of the appliances and equipment in the coach and distributes the electrical loads to avoid nuisance tripping of the shoreline circuit breaker. This system works together with the energy efficient Coleman Power Miser central air conditioner unit to allow you to run both compressors at the same time on a 30-amp shoreline connection."

Is 50A service desirable, yes, required, no, at least not for the early 2000s Adventurers and Suncruisers.

[tim myers]

Is the OP stating that his coach has a 30 A plug that is connected to the 30 A side of a dogbone and the other end of the dogbone is plugged into a 50 A power source?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by tim myers

Is the OP stating that his coach has a 30 A plug that is connected to the 30 A side of a dogbone and the other end of the dogbone is plugged into a 50 A power source?

Good question. I assumed the opposite. In his OP, he stated:

"-30 AMP shore power (w/ adapter from 50AMP house plug)"

This is a bit ambiguous depending on what he means by "50AMP house plug". If he's plugged into a 50A, 240V dryer outlet at his house, that could cause all sorts of problems.

Bubbie, can you be more specific?

Does your 35U have 30A or 50A shore power? What type of outlet are you plugging into? If your MH has 50A shore power, your shore power cord will have three spade connectors plus a round ground connector. If 30A, your shore power cord will have two spade connectors plus a round ground connector:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoOR2AJGjOI

Plugging an RV into a standard 240V residential outlet is fraught with problems and can be highly dangerous. If this is the case, the ruined dogbone might have saved your life. This is true regardless of your RV's shore power amp rating.

[AFChap]

Have you changed the return air filter? The red reset button is the high pressure cut-off switch. It will trip in heat pump mode due to restricted air flow ... normally due to a clogged filter. Don't know what would trip it in ac mode.

[winnie32v]

Followed this inquiry as best I could.
NOTE: i have a 2001 Winnebago Adventurer and easily run my basement air on 30 amps.

BUT....when you use 50a to 30a adapter, you are only getting one side of the 50a supply.
Thus, your available amps are 25a max. You can verify this as you need.

Next, since the source is 50plug that has a 50a breaker, then it will take 50a+ to trip the pole breaker.
So, if you overload the adapter the result will be a overheat at that site and result as described.

Suggestion.
Disconnect the Powerline for about 5 min and then turn on.
This should reboot.
Turn off the #2 compressor breaker.
Then run your AC as usual.
Should get quick jump to ~20s amps then settle to 12-13a , maybe.
#2compressor will not be acitvated.
Power board should read amps for 1 compressor.

If you see amps in the 30 range then there may be some other issues as discussed above.

[Morich]

The theories and suggestions are often interesting but aren't they pretty much useless until we know which power setup THIS RV has?

Since this model has both 30 amp and 50 amp as options, which does THIS RV have?

I don't think it's very important what power source is used on an RV that somebody else has!!!!

Right now, my best guess is that there might be a bunch of nuts rolling around in the floor---sounds as logical as all the other guesses, doesn't it?

[winnie32v]

Originally Posted by Morich

The theories and suggestions are often interesting but aren't they pretty much useless until we know which power setup THIS RV has?

Since this model has both 30 amp and 50 amp as options, which does THIS RV have?

Please read introductory post:

Details:
-2000 Winnebago Adventurer 35u
-RVP 6535-871 2 stage heat pump/ AC
-30 AMP shore power (w/ adapter from 50AMP house plug)

[dickb46]

Dono. We have a 2003 wired for 50 amps and spend 5 days in the last month at various campgrounds plugged into 30 amp power with an adapter.
With one compressor and the refer running we pulled 19 amps, with both compressors and the refer we pulled 29 amps. We always shut the ac off to run the microwave but forgot to shut it off with the vacuum cleaner. That blew the campground breaker.
I'm sure this didn't help very many people :-)
dick

[dickb46]

Oh. We were using the vacuum cleaner to pick up the nuts on the floor

[Morich]

If every new person on the forum could actually state accurately what they had and were doing, we could cut straight to the right answers in many cases but when somebody comes along and says they are new and describe a situation where it is obvious they may not understand, I want to check when they say things that can be understood in different ways.

I think Bobc has the better plan in asking what the OP meant and then we have a place to start, rather than jumping in with all kinds of useless stuff to confuse a guy who is already admitting he is a bit confused.

We could "ASSUME" he has either but I still see lots of room for nuts on the floor!

[imnprsd]

At 29A you your ATS will over heat after 4-8 hours if you are running on generator power. ...And if you are paying attention, your AMPS will increase to 34A and possibly go as high as 50A until your Neutral CB on your generator pops.

My Onan 7500 has 2 neutral CB rated for 35A each, because the generator is rated for ~63A-65A. (I can't remember the exact number.)

This is the point: Just because you have 50A service does not mean you can run more than 50% of that, on inductive loads, like ACs, for an extended amount of time.

I have a Parallax ATS-5070 that uses the old-school, 8-pin, heavy duty relays, and these are better than the newer Contractor Relays now being used in all ATS being sold today and probably since 2018ish. So if you are running more than 24A on 50A service you need to keep an eye out for high current after a few hours. (4-6 on average for inductive loads like running an AC).

[cbeierl]

Originally Posted by winnie32v

...
BUT....when you use 50a to 30a adapter, you are only getting one side of the 50a supply.
Thus, your available amps are 25a max....

Just a correction here. A '50 Amp' RV connection is actually 50A at 220V or 50A for EACH of the two 110V legs, for a total of 100A at 110V available to the coach. If only one leg is used you would have 50A at 110V available from the source.

[tim myers]

Originally Posted by cbeierl

Just a correction here. A '50 Amp' RV connection is actually 50A at 220V or 50A for EACH of the two 110V legs, for a total of 100A at 110V available to the coach. If only one leg is used you would have 50A at 110V available from the source.

True, this is!!!!