Question: Is RV Anti-Freeze Required by your RV Mfg's Owners Manual?

[dkoldman]

Are there any RV Make / Models designed in such a way that the RV Mfg calls out in the Owners Manual that the use of Anti-Freeze is the ONLY proper method to prevent the said RV Make / Model from freeze damage?

Note: This is not a question of your preferred method, or why you may use the method that you do; but to learn if there are certain RVs designed in such a way that the RV Mfg specifically states that Anti-Freeze is the only proper method to prepare said RV for freeze temperatures to be expected.

If so; can you provide that Year, Make & Model? A snippet or screenshot of the exact language would be very helpful.

[Morich]

Not heard/see for the water lines we think of on RV but perhaps if one is thinking of the normal radiator and cooling?
Sounds like there may be some communications questions?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Not heard/see for the water lines we think of on RV but perhaps if one is thinking of the normal radiator and cooling?
Sounds like there may be some communications questions?

I am referring to RV Antifreeze that may or may not be required to winterize supply lines in the RV.

I am seeking input on what the owners manuals say for the various models, not the preferred option chosen by the RV Owner.

Specifically I am trying to find out if there is any model where RV Antifreeze is required or mandatory as only method for proper winter preparation.

[dkoldman]

Not much feedback on this so it may confirm what I am concluding...

1. That RV Mfg design all of the coaches so that they may drained and blown out with air, and if done properly there will never be a freeze issue.

2. RV Owners will always have option to use anti freeze if they so desire, but in doing so there is no logic or reason to believe the coach is any safer from freezing than air blowout. RV owner may wish to use Anti Freeze for other reasons simply because it is there RV.

The only exception I have found thus far is in cases of RVs with Aqua Hot and /or some Washing machines who say to winterize those devices the Anti Freeze is required which in turns says the entire RV must use the Anti Freeze as a practical matter.

[Morich]

I doubt that there would be any specific RV that requires on or the other and either can protect most RV, but only if done in the right way!
My thoughts are that I do not mind using both!
But that is a personal view based on how many RV I have seen with damage when the protection was not done right.
My family of three brothers started in cheap RV. That left us buying damaged Rv and rebuilding them. Much of that was due to freeze damage as we did not favor too much body or engine work.
So we got a good look at how and where folks miss getting the line protected. But our area weather was often extreme, so perhaps my view is slanted!

Now I have more time than past and I also really, really do not like to think of rebuilding the plumbing. so I am willing to go further when the weather is nice as a way to avoid even a slight chance of having to redo the plumbing when the weather is not nice!
When not using antifreeze, there is a chance that the blow out is not totally effective. There are small puddles of water left at various points in the system and if those small bubbles/puddles of water collect in a low spot, it can collect in some place like a tee and break it!
My view is that either will do most of the time but I do not want to risk that one time chance when I have plenty of time to do the extra to assure myself that winter is not a hazard!
Just another case where we each have to look at the risk/ reward factors on a personal basis and try to figure where to place our bets!

Life is a big lottery, so how to play the game?

[be happy]

Not really sure what you are trying to find out. I will say that last week I looked up on the Winnebago site to answer a question on this fourm about winterizing. I do not remember which unit the poster had, but I do remember that in the owners manual Winnebago gave instructions for both methods of winterizing. They did not show a preference to which method.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by be happy

Not really sure what you are trying to find out. I will say that last week I looked up on the Winnebago site to answer a question on this fourm about winterizing. I do not remember which unit the poster had, but I do remember that in the owners manual Winnebago gave instructions for both methods of winterizing. They did not show a preference to which method.

My intent was purposely hidden, because I did not wish the thread to stray from an owners preference air bow out or antifreeze because that is NOT what I seek nor do I care to have that discussion ad nauseam.

I wanted to know what the RV Owners manual says. Thus far, no one has sited where they have an RV that the manual says you MUST use Anti Freeze to protect the coach. In fact, my WBGO manual says to use the air blowout and goes to list anti freeze as an alternative (Method 2).

So to follow where I am going, you have to throw out your opinion on which you prefer.

What is left is that RV Mfgs and their Engineering tell you how to properly winterize your coach. Both methods are safe if done properly. Picking one over the other because you doubt or dispute what the mfg says is misguided in my opinion. Either method can be done incorrectly and cause damage.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

I doubt that there would be any specific RV that requires on or the other and either can protect most RV, but only if done in the right way!
My thoughts are that I do not mind using both!
But that is a personal view based on how many RV I have seen with damage when the protection was not done right.
My family of three brothers started in cheap RV. That left us buying damaged Rv and rebuilding them. Much of that was due to freeze damage as we did not favor too much body or engine work.
So we got a good look at how and where folks miss getting the line protected. But our area weather was often extreme, so perhaps my view is slanted!

Now I have more time than past and I also really, really do not like to think of rebuilding the plumbing. so I am willing to go further when the weather is nice as a way to avoid even a slight chance of having to redo the plumbing when the weather is not nice!
When not using antifreeze, there is a chance that the blow out is not totally effective. There are small puddles of water left at various points in the system and if those small bubbles/puddles of water collect in a low spot, it can collect in some place like a tee and break it!
My view is that either will do most of the time but I do not want to risk that one time chance when I have plenty of time to do the extra to assure myself that winter is not a hazard!
Just another case where we each have to look at the risk/ reward factors on a personal basis and try to figure where to place our bets!

Life is a big lottery, so how to play the game?

You are making my point. If RV owner follows the manual to the T and of course it is assumptive that the RV owner can follow the directions or otherwise they must hire someone to winterize. Dealers will always use AntiFreeze method because they charge more in material labor. That is off my topic though.

My issue is that some RV owners falsely state, suggest or imply that using RV Antifreeze is going to freeze protect better than the drain and air blow out method I guess if you assume RV Mfg Engineering does not know this so they inexcusably continue to put in owners manual to use the air blow out?

Case and point. My RV Owner Manual does require air blow out and antifreeze. It states to drain, blow out with compressor, and when finish pour 1 cup of antifreeze in P traps ( not the toilet) . It goes on to say if you do NOT have a air compressor you can alternatively use anti freeze in Supply lines.

Note: The above has nothing to do with owner preferences. I AM NOT SAYING that RV Owners should not use Anti freeze. They should use / do what they want. I am saying that it is misguided if sole reason for doing so is out of belief that antifreeze will freeze protect better and properly drained and blown out system. I don't care where you live or what state. In 2021 we went 8 days with temp being between -2F and 8F and had no issue with freezing in the RV.

As far as the improperly draining and air blowout method is concerned, I would think that any RV owner that is incapable of doing so correctly would likely have more issues with trying to use the antifreeze correctly? There are a few bypass values that must be set in right position etc. If you can do the latter; hard to imagine same person not being able to use blow out method correctly?

[BobC]

I may be in the minority but I've never used antifreeze or taken any precautions in 19 years of RV ownership and my RVs have always been stored outside. It all depends on where you live. We live near Sacramento and very seldom have prolonged freezes or extremely low temperatures. If it drops below freezing, it's usually for a few hours during the night, warming up during the day.

We also use our RV year round so winterizing would be a hassle. I took a look at average temperatures by month and it looks like Dallas may be in the same range but a little warmer than our area in terms of low temperatures. If you wanted to do something, you could always just empty your water tank and run your pump at each faucet and toilet until your lines are empty. I don't think blowing the lines out is necessary. Easy peasy and no nasty chemicals to clean out.

That's my experience but it's all up to you.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by BobC

I may be in the minority but I've never used antifreeze or taken any precautions in 19 years of RV ownership and my RVs have always been stored outside. It all depends on where you live. We live near Sacramento and very seldom have prolonged freezes or extremely low temperatures. If it drops below freezing, it's usually for a few hours during the night, warming up during the day.

We also use our RV year round so winterizing would be a hassle. I took a look at average temperatures by month and it looks like Dallas may be in the same range but a little warmer than our area in terms of low temperatures. If you wanted to do something, you could always just empty your water tank and run your pump at each faucet and toilet until your lines are empty. I don't think blowing the lines out is necessary. Easy peasy and no nasty chemicals to clean out.

That's my experience but it's all up to you.

I know it may be confusing as to why I created the thread, but I was focused on what RV owners manual say they should do for their RV?

I was trying to avoid another thread where the discussions centered around RV owners touting one method over another based on their preference. I agree all are entitled do what they want. But I think some RV Owners tend to discount what their manual says or assume they may know more than WBGO or their Engineering.

i.e. anyone that use AntiFreeze without Aqua Hot or Washing Machine, are doing so because of their preference NOT the RV's Owners Manual. I created the thread to get proof because many who use the AntiFeeze do so and false state as if it is safer than Blowout method but that is not consist ant with the RV manuals. At least to this point, thus I am solicited info from owners to see what their manual say.

[BobC]

Thanks for the clarification, I should take more time and read things more carefully. I think many of the manual recommendations are there, not because they're necessary or even recommended practice in a larger sense but are there to protect the manufacturer against warranty claims.

[Wmlunt]

My WBGO manual shows how to use antifreeze, but does not say it is mandatory to do this. Why would they when not all live in freeze zones?
Bill

[Morich]

Personal situation changes what we do. I have an air compressor and can change the settings. But if one has never owned a compressor, that setting stuff can be a mine field of mistakes!
It can seem logical to a novice user that they can get the water out much better with higher pressure! They may not think of what high pressure does to plastic fittings and connections!
Not understanding the bypass, they can get the idea that bypassing the heater is all that is needed! They turned off the heater and bypassed it so why would they need to do anything with it if they're not using it?
For those who are not used to using a compressor, simply adding antifreeze may be much less mistake prone! If they get the water heater bypass wrong, they may use a lot of antifreeze but still get it done.
It all takes a certain amount of understanding but none are foolproof!
What we don't know can turn out to be exactly what we needed to know!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wmlunt

My WBGO manual shows how to use antifreeze, but does not say it is mandatory to do this. Why would they when not all live in freeze zones?
Bill

The manual would only show antifreeze option if they knew the coach was designed in such a way that a hard freeze would result in some plumbing damage because all water could not be properly drained or blown out, to which case they would make it clear that antifreeze was required just as they do in the manuals for RVs with Aqua Hot or RVs with Washers.

With that said, if you understand the point of the thread it is not just another debate on pros and cons on which of the two methods any owner may prefer. An owner can do whatever they please because most manual show the air blowout and list the antifreeze as an option.

For me and as to avoid debate, it is ONLY about the what the RV owners manuals say. I am sure Winnebago Engineering knows what a hard freeze is. It does not matter what state you live in a hard freeze is a hard freeze. Many people in the Yukon in Canada use the Air blowout method with no issues.

The only thing this thread does is verify for me at least from those that have read and responded, that no coach has been identified that the RV's Owners manual say that the only way to properly winterized is with Anti Freeze (short the exceptions I cited above) In case of a 2019 Sunstar 29ve WBGO actually says to use the air blowout method unless you do not have an air compressor. I have air compressor and I have had no issues. The manual even warns against antifreeze because of taste in fresh water supply lines.

Worst hard freeze for us was in 2021 when we went 8 days 23 hours & 23 minutes in Dallas with sub freezing temps ranging from -2F to 10F. We had $32k of freeze damage to our home and pool, but zero issues with boat or RV. Both used air blowout methods.

So I conclude those that prefer to use AntiFreeze are doing for there own personal reasons (right, wrong or indifferent), but there is nothing of substance to say or infer that anti freeze will winterize or protect any better than air blowout unless it is a known case where you cannot ordinarily drain the water line such as Aqua Hot or Washer.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Personal situation changes what we do. I have an air compressor and can change the settings. But if one has never owned a compressor, that setting stuff can be a mine field of mistakes!
It can seem logical to a novice user that they can get the water out much better with higher pressure! They may not think of what high pressure does to plastic fittings and connections!
Not understanding the bypass, they can get the idea that bypassing the heater is all that is needed! They turned off the heater and bypassed it so why would they need to do anything with it if they're not using it?
For those who are not used to using a compressor, simply adding antifreeze may be much less mistake prone! If they get the water heater bypass wrong, they may use a lot of antifreeze but still get it done.
It all takes a certain amount of understanding but none are foolproof!
What we don't know can turn out to be exactly what we needed to know!

This falls under any RV owner can do what they prefer. If said owner does not feel that they may be properly apply the air blowout method they have a 2nd option, especially if they do not even own a compressor with regulator. But in my view, if I was concerned that say my wife could not properly apply the air blowout method, I certainly would not trust her with work the antifreeze method either. That is when I would hire someone to winterize for me.

If I said it enough, it may become clear of my point because the debate on air versus antifreeze may be 60 years old? I am not debating what a owner prefers.

I am saying that from what I am learning, to say one prefers to use antifreeze because it will somehow better protect from freeze damage when otherwise properly drained and blown out is misguided.

In other words, if I had two identical 29ve and both were properly winterized one of each method and left in Sub freezing 0F temperature for any extended period time, neither will have damage and WGBO Engineering backs that up in writing in the Owners Manual. So the RV owner can selct method they prefer, but it misguided to say that antifeeze will protect from freeze damage better. As a result, I will always use Method #1 in my manual as long as my regulated air compressor works.

With that said, this winter I will do something different. When I air blowout, I will capture the water blown out. I am curious to know how much? I am not convinced that it will be of adequate amount to be worried about if I had drained only, but not blown out? My guess is it may be less than 20 oz of water? But that is only Theory but I intend to find out if the next time I winterize. I am expecting a freeze tonight, but I am not winterized nor am I worried.

[Bzerull]

I live in Wisconsin, so I do have to winterize. I have a 2002 Itasca Spirit class C. My manual mentions antifreeze method or blowout with no preference.

I blowout first, then antifreeze. No problems.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by Bzerull

I live in Wisconsin, so I do have to winterize. I have a 2002 Itasca Spirit class C. My manual mentions antifreeze method or blowout with no preference.

I blowout first, then antifreeze. No problems.

Sounds like a good plan to me! Once you have lived in real cold, we often learn to give nature a lot more respect and a lot less trust!

Being able to admit that I am also quite tight with the money and having more time than many, I go even one step further.
As a third step and already having all the equipment ready, I blow the antifreeze back out of the lines and into the jugs to use next time!
Probably taking 15-20 minutes extra, I only lose the antifreeze that goes into traps, etc. as most of what is in the lines just circles back around to go back into the jugs!

Being nervous on things I can control is NOT part of my retirement plans!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Bzerull

I live in Wisconsin, so I do have to winterize. I have a 2002 Itasca Spirit class C. My manual mentions antifreeze method or blowout with no preference.

I blowout first, then antifreeze. No problems.

Yes, my manual and all that I am learning about as topic of this thread say to do blowout first and then list anti freeze as option.

You do both which is you preference. The point of the thread which I think has been accomplished, is that if either method is done properly there will be no problems.

With that said we know there are always exceptions where some may have tried to blowout and/or apply antifreeze and had damage, but in each case, by definition; not design the winterization was not applied properly.

It has been 5 years and I only use the anti freeze in P traps, this winter when I do winterize, I will be measuring to see exactly how much water I blowout after the system has been self drained.

Note: we use our RV year around so I really don't like to say winterize, because basically all we do is remove the water and keep on keeping on.

[YoYoDadddyO]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

This falls under any RV owner can do what they prefer. If said owner does not feel that they may be properly apply the air blowout method they have a 2nd option, especially if they do not even own a compressor with regulator. But in my view, if I was concerned that say my wife could not properly apply the air blowout method, I certainly would not trust her with work the antifreeze method either. That is when I would hire someone to winterize for me.

If I said it enough, it may become clear of my point because the debate on air versus antifreeze may be 60 years old? I am not debating what a owner prefers.

I am saying that from what I am learning, to say one prefers to use antifreeze because it will somehow better protect from freeze damage when otherwise properly drained and blown out is misguided.

In other words, if I had two identical 29ve and both were properly winterized one of each method and left in Sub freezing 0F temperature for any extended period time, neither will have damage and WGBO Engineering backs that up in writing in the Owners Manual. So the RV owner can selct method they prefer, but it misguided to say that antifeeze will protect from freeze damage better. As a result, I will always use Method #1 in my manual as long as my regulated air compressor works.

With that said, this winter I will do something different. When I air blowout, I will capture the water blown out. I am curious to know how much? I am not convinced that it will be of adequate amount to be worried about if I had drained only, but not blown out? My guess is it may be less than 20 oz of water? But that is only Theory but I intend to find out if the next time I winterize. I am expecting a freeze tonight, but I am not winterized nor am I worried.

I would also like to know about the actual amount of water that is "blown out" AFTER just opening and draining everything. From what I have seen, any freeze damage may also depend upon exactly WHERE that water collects (in which lines). I just winterized ours and placed it under the shelter until Spring here in eastern NC. Already getting below 25 degrees!

[Ray,IN]

The owners manual for my MH says to use compressed air to blow out water OR use RV anti-freeze. I do both, my money, my preference.
I've blown out the plumbing lines, waited a few hrs and repeated; this always results in about a pint more water coming out the faucets and drains.
So, to be safe I pump RV anti-freeze through the lines. Reason_ replacing some plumbing lines would be very difficult for an old man with bad joints.
BTW, it was 13°F this morning and I slept well knowing my MH was freeze-proofed.

Bottom line, it's your property to do with as you wish, and your money to make any resulting repairs.