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Old 07-12-2022, 08:44 AM   #21
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Thanks Bones2003,

I will definitely check the air admittance valves when I eventually get my rig back from the Ford dealership.

Also ... the dental floss tip - I'll give that a try too to see if I can line up that middle sensor a bit more accurately.
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Old 07-12-2022, 09:50 AM   #22
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Sorry I missed your question on the AAV, glad Bones answered it. Both the kitchen and bathroom ones can be reached and unscrewed to confirm the tank isn't venting because the bottom of the vent pipe is submerged.
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Old 07-16-2022, 09:05 AM   #23
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Bones2003,

Good idea about calculating the capacity from the external tank dimensions. I will have to give that a try when I get the RV back from the Ford dealership in hopefully ONLY 3 weeks time. (Dash A/C problem, another nightmare experience.)
The Ford dealership in Portland actually got my rig done earlier than expected, so I was able to bring the rig home and try out that idea of measuring the tank dimensions and calculating the capacity. Of course, these would be exterior dimensions, and the tank is not a true box with all opposing sides parallel, but still, it should give an approximate answer.

The results: the tank is 5.5" high X 42.5" wide X 48" deep. If I've calculated correctly, this would make the tank capacity out to be about 48.5 gallons. Smaller than the spec, but still lots bigger than what I'm experiencing!
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Old 07-16-2022, 10:51 AM   #24
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Black Tank Volume

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The Ford dealership in Portland actually got my rig done earlier than expected, so I was able to bring the rig home and try out that idea of measuring the tank dimensions and calculating the capacity. Of course, these would be exterior dimensions, and the tank is not a true box with all opposing sides parallel, but still, it should give an approximate answer.

The results: the tank is 5.5" high X 42.5" wide X 48" deep. If I've calculated correctly, this would make the tank capacity out to be about 48.5 gallons. Smaller than the spec, but still lots bigger than what I'm experiencing!
Bitzer, You probably measured the height on the side of the sensors. That's the shortest side of the tank. The tallest is at the outlet. That corner is hard to reach but I came up with about 8 inches. That wedged shaped section should easily make up the missing volume.
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Old 07-16-2022, 11:04 AM   #25
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Update:

1) I repeated the experiment, causing the gray tank to back up into the shower pan, and using my handy flowmeter that I bought online for $20, verified that the backup started somewhere around 32-33 gallons.

2) I loosened the mechanical vent cap under both the kitchen and the bathroom sinks. No "wooshing" sound. I unscrewed one of the mechanical vent caps and inspected it, and the valve inside the vent cap was able to move back and forth freely, so both of the mechanical vents seem to be working just fine.

3) I tried jockeying the level of the vehicle with the manual override feature of the levelers. This didn't really help.

4) I discovered that I could actually see the level of the gray water in the tank by looking at the tank from the vantage point of the storage compartment on the passenger side, just behind the door into the RV. And yep, the level of the water in the tank looked to be about 2/3 full.

5) So - I moved my water hose from the shower to the bathroom sink and continued to fill the gray tank from there. By the way, my fill rate for this entire experiment was about 3/4 of a gallon per minute. This was enough flow that water would start backing up into the sink; periodically, say about once or twice a minute, a gurgling sound could be heard, and the water would drain out of the sink. By squirting water directly down the bathroom sink, I was able to fill the tank to within an inch of the top of the tank. This made for a total of 44 gallons in the tank, which corresponds pretty well with the calculation of an approximate max in the tank of 48 gallons.

6) At this point, I began to suspect that maybe the waterless trap under the shower pan might be failing to open for some reason. I tested this by sticking a gently curved coat hanger end down the shower drain. Sure enough, by forcing open the floppy rubber 'valve' in the waterless trap, I got the water to drain out of the shower pan.

My next attempt will be to repeat the experiment, but only pour water down the bathroom sink to see if it backs up at 32 gallons, or goes all the way to 44 gallons. Stay tuned for further developments!
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Old 07-16-2022, 11:05 AM   #26
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Oakprk, that could very well be. I'll have to refine my estimate by doing a bit of extra math, taking into account the different heights.
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Old 07-16-2022, 11:37 AM   #27
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Update:

1) I repeated the experiment, causing the gray tank to back up into the shower pan, and using my handy flowmeter that I bought online for $20, verified that the backup started somewhere around 32-33 gallons.

2) I loosened the mechanical vent cap under both the kitchen and the bathroom sinks. No "wooshing" sound. I unscrewed one of the mechanical vent caps and inspected it, and the valve inside the vent cap was able to move back and forth freely, so both of the mechanical vents seem to be working just fine.

3) I tried jockeying the level of the vehicle with the manual override feature of the levelers. This didn't really help.

4) I discovered that I could actually see the level of the gray water in the tank by looking at the tank from the vantage point of the storage compartment on the passenger side, just behind the door into the RV. And yep, the level of the water in the tank looked to be about 2/3 full.

5) So - I moved my water hose from the shower to the bathroom sink and continued to fill the gray tank from there. By the way, my fill rate for this entire experiment was about 3/4 of a gallon per minute. This was enough flow that water would start backing up into the sink; periodically, say about once or twice a minute, a gurgling sound could be heard, and the water would drain out of the sink. By squirting water directly down the bathroom sink, I was able to fill the tank to within an inch of the top of the tank. This made for a total of 44 gallons in the tank, which corresponds pretty well with the calculation of an approximate max in the tank of 48 gallons.

6) At this point, I began to suspect that maybe the waterless trap under the shower pan might be failing to open for some reason. I tested this by sticking a gently curved coat hanger end down the shower drain. Sure enough, by forcing open the floppy rubber 'valve' in the waterless trap, I got the water to drain out of the shower pan.

My next attempt will be to repeat the experiment, but only pour water down the bathroom sink to see if it backs up at 32 gallons, or goes all the way to 44 gallons. Stay tuned for further developments!
Bitzer, You need to completely remove the vent cap before the air will escape. The threads are pretty snug.
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Old 07-16-2022, 11:41 AM   #28
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Also, when the pressure in the tank builds up due to failure to vent the rubber valve will be held closed unless you force it open with an object. Then the tank will vent through the shower drain.
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Old 07-16-2022, 05:37 PM   #29
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These shallow tanks is why I always wondered how accurate the Sea Level Sensor upgrade would be?
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Old 07-16-2022, 05:47 PM   #30
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These shallow tanks is why I always wondered how accurate the Sea Level Sensor upgrade would be?
The sensors work great. No probes are inside the tank. The problem is with the vent pipe.
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Old 07-17-2022, 08:08 AM   #31
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Bitzer, You need to completely remove the vent cap before the air will escape. The threads are pretty snug.
Yep, I did that. Sadly, no whooshing sound. I unscrewed one of them all the way, took it completely off and took a good look at it too. When I turned it over, the check valve stopper inside of it flopped freely back and forth.

I'll keep plugging away at the problem. As you said in your most recent post, when I force the floppy rubber valve in the waterless trap under the shower open with a coat hanger, the shower pan does drain. I'm beginning to wonder if that waterless trap might be malfunctioning under certain conditions.
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Old 07-17-2022, 08:43 AM   #32
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I would suspect the trap!
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Old 07-17-2022, 08:49 AM   #33
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Yep, I did that. Sadly, no whooshing sound. I unscrewed one of them all the way, took it completely off and took a good look at it too. When I turned it over, the check valve stopper inside of it flopped freely back and forth.

I'll keep plugging away at the problem. As you said in your most recent post, when I force the floppy rubber valve in the waterless trap under the shower open with a coat hanger, the shower pan does drain. I'm beginning to wonder if that waterless trap might be malfunctioning under certain conditions.
There's something different about your rig or leveling. When mine backs up I can consistently drain the shower by removing one of the check valves. It acts just like the bottom of the vent pipe is submerged. That will build up pressure in the tank while the shower drains until it stops the rubber trap from opening.BTW, I bet when you opened the rubber trap with the hanger air came out also while the pan drained.
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Old 07-17-2022, 08:53 AM   #34
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I would suspect the trap!
When the shower starts backing up you will find both sinks backing up also...no venting from the tank.
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Old 07-17-2022, 12:28 PM   #35
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There's something different about your rig or leveling. When mine backs up I can consistently drain the shower by removing one of the check valves. It acts just like the bottom of the vent pipe is submerged. That will build up pressure in the tank while the shower drains until it stops the rubber trap from opening.BTW, I bet when you opened the rubber trap with the hanger air came out also while the pan drained.
Yes, you are correct, air did come out when I forced open the rubber trap. So it appears that if there is either air or water pushing back on the rubber waterless trap, the back pressure will keep the trap closed. As an experiment, I replace the waterless trap under the shower pan with a straight pipe. I was then able to fill the gray tank up to 49 gallons via the shower, which is within about 10% of my improved guesstimate of tank capacity of 54 gallons.

Interesting: with the waterless trap replaced with a straight pipe, after the tank got over 2/3 full, water would start to back up a bit in the shower pan, but about every 20 or 30 seconds there would be a gurgling sound accompanied by a bunch of bubbles out of the shower drain, then all the water would drain out.

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps the drain pipe from the shower pan extends too deeply into the tank, and that's why I'm only having problems with the shower and not the bathroom or kitchen sinks?
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Old 07-17-2022, 05:33 PM   #36
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Yes, you are correct, air did come out when I forced open the rubber trap. So it appears that if there is either air or water pushing back on the rubber waterless trap, the back pressure will keep the trap closed. As an experiment, I replace the waterless trap under the shower pan with a straight pipe. I was then able to fill the gray tank up to 49 gallons via the shower, which is within about 10% of my improved guesstimate of tank capacity of 54 gallons.

Interesting: with the waterless trap replaced with a straight pipe, after the tank got over 2/3 full, water would start to back up a bit in the shower pan, but about every 20 or 30 seconds there would be a gurgling sound accompanied by a bunch of bubbles out of the shower drain, then all the water would drain out.

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps the drain pipe from the shower pan extends too deeply into the tank, and that's why I'm only having problems with the shower and not the bathroom or kitchen sinks?
Bitzer, you're confirming that the tank stops venting well before it's filled to capacity. As long as it's vented you woul never have any problem with the shower drain, even if the end was submerged. You need to access the vent pipe behind the screen outside the bathroom, remove any clamps, remove the rooftop vent cap, mark the pipe where it enters the gasket then pull it out. See if the length below your mark is appropriate for the length of the seal.
P.S. you will also have problems with either sink when you reach the same limit.
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Old 07-17-2022, 09:49 PM   #37
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The sensors work great. No probes are inside the tank. The problem is with the vent pipe.
I should have prefaced my comment. It had nothing to do with your experience I was just wondering, on another note, if the sea level gauges would work on the shallow take that’s all.
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Old 07-17-2022, 10:11 PM   #38
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Shallow tanks make leveling more critical but I suppose Sea Level sensors should definitely be an improvement to conventional probes
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Old 07-20-2022, 01:02 PM   #39
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Bitzer, you're confirming that the tank stops venting well before it's filled to capacity. As long as it's vented you woul never have any problem with the shower drain, even if the end was submerged. You need to access the vent pipe behind the screen outside the bathroom, remove any clamps, remove the rooftop vent cap, mark the pipe where it enters the gasket then pull it out. See if the length below your mark is appropriate for the length of the seal.
P.S. you will also have problems with either sink when you reach the same limit.
Oakprk,

So close! I removed the rooftop vent cap, removed the screen from the wall just outside the bathroom, and found the little rectangle cut into the floor where the vent tube runs straight down from the roof into the gray tank. I can see the light cream-colored gasket that the vent tube pushes into. There is also a thicker sleeve on the black vent tube itself; I am guessing the sleeve helps to prevent the vent tube from falling into the tank if the clamp works loose.

I can also see the large hose clamp around the gasket. Unfortunately, the screw head is just out of reach for a small wrench or a screwdriver. I cannot see it, but if I wedge my hand in there, I can just get a couple of fingers around the screw head. I might be able to loosen it enough by hand to rotate the clamp around for better access, but I'm hesitant to do so, in case I get it partway loose and then can't get any further.

So for my next RV trip, I am going to leave things as they are, wait to see if the tank backs up into the shower, and if it does, I will try your trick of removing one of the check valves to see if I can get the shower pan to drain.
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Old 07-20-2022, 01:19 PM   #40
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Oakprk,

So close! I removed the rooftop vent cap, removed the screen from the wall just outside the bathroom, and found the little rectangle cut into the floor where the vent tube runs straight down from the roof into the gray tank. I can see the light cream-colored gasket that the vent tube pushes into. There is also a thicker sleeve on the black vent tube itself; I am guessing the sleeve helps to prevent the vent tube from falling into the tank if the clamp works loose.

I can also see the large hose clamp around the gasket. Unfortunately, the screw head is just out of reach for a small wrench or a screwdriver. I cannot see it, but if I wedge my hand in there, I can just get a couple of fingers around the screw head. I might be able to loosen it enough by hand to rotate the clamp around for better access, but I'm hesitant to do so, in case I get it partway loose and then can't get any further.

So for my next RV trip, I am going to leave things as they are, wait to see if the tank backs up into the shower, and if it does, I will try your trick of removing one of the check valves to see if I can get the shower pan to drain.
I took a shower today with the gauge showing 2/3 and as usual it started backing up by the time I finished. I removed the bathroom check valve, felt the gush of air come out and watched the shower drain. I then ran more water, with no backup, until the gauge showed full.
At least you have a clamp on the grommet, I didn't. There was a metal strap around the pipe and was screwed to the framing. I did add a clamp around the grommet also.
You need a nut driver to fit the screw so you can loosen it without seeing. Sorry I forgot the size.
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