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Old 10-23-2021, 04:45 PM   #1
Winnie-Wise
 
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Tongue Weight specs for my truck

I want to upprade to a 2015 Minnie 2101 or a 2016 Micro Minnie 2106 and trying to determine if the weight specs for my truck will work. Its not the towing capacity but the tongue weight that is the factor.

Thanks for the feedback, Truck numbers are from the door Jamb.

I have a 2012 Dutchman 177QBSL the factory reported tongue weight is 266lb, and a max GVW of 4700lbs which I assume included two empty 5 gal propane tanks, no battery and manual jack.

I added two full 7 gal (30lb) tanks, dual 6 volt Batteries and an Electric Tongue Jack. I was at 727 lbs static when putting the jack on the scale and the rest of the trailer off the scale.

Add me, the wife and the dog we are just over 1000lbs. That means the truck has to carry no gear in the box to stay under Payload of 1000 lbs.

Sticker GVWR 6052 lbs


I have a canopy on the truck and truck weighs as follows (Weighed the truck last summer with Canopy, hitch, myself, wife and spaniel, box empty);

Axle 1 2756 lbs 2910 lbs sticker Max
Axle 2 2315 lbs 3285 lbs sticker Max

981 lbs Cargo/tongue to reach trucks GVWR Limit
970 lbs Cargo/tongue to reach rear axle GAWR Limit

Hooked on trailer with equalizer bars, batteries, jack and full propane and went through scale again.

Axle 1 2579 lbs 2910 lbs Sticker Max
Axle 2 3042 lbs 3285 lbs Sticker Max
Axle 3 4145 lbs 4700 lbs GCWR of Dutchman Trailer

Axle Total 9766 lbs GCWR for Truck 11,270

From above I could put 555 lbs in the trailer right over the axles to reach the trailer GVWR and 970 lbs (minus tongue weight) in box of truck If I was to place any of the 555 lbs cargo in front of the trailer axles that would have to be deducted from the 970 lbs allowed in the truck.


The real issue here was the Dutchman was to have a tongue weight of 266 lbs from factory (would include two empty 5 gal tanks (34 lbs) and a crank Jack (13 lbs, no battery).

I added two Crown Deep Cycle Batteries weigh 130lbs, upgraded to two full 7 gal propane tanks additional weight 80 lbs, upgraded to a Husky Brute Electric Jack additional weight 16 lbs. Upgraded mattress to a 7" deluxe (weight difference unknown). Based of the factory weight of 266 lbs plus 130 + 80 + 16 + mattress difference = 492 lbs.

Why did I get 727 lbs on the scale, mattress sure isn't 235 lbs heavier than the factory mattress. All tanks were empty and trailer totally empty.

Not sure what I'm missing here.


Bottom line I would love to hear what others are getting for tongue weight on their pre 2016 Minnie 2101 or 2016 Micro Minnie on the road with cargo, batteries and propane.


This is my second option for a trailer upgrade from the 2016 Micro Minnie 2106 or 2015 Minnie 2101.

2015 - 2016 Keystone Passport 199ML
- UVW 134 - 269 lbs lighter,
- Factory Tongue Weight 25 - 125 lbs lighter,
- GVW 1800 - 2260 lbs less capacity.

Based on my Dutchman's GVW weights (loaded) which I never really exceeded will fall under the the Passport and Winnebago GVW maximums.

Hoping all numbers will work within my Tacoma's specs.

Thanks for the help here, there is lots to take in.
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Old 11-18-2021, 06:18 PM   #2
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Hi BC, I'm in a similar situation where I am trying to get my tongue weight down. One option I will do is to swap out my 2 6v batteries for a lithium. I will be getting only one and it will be installed in the front pass through, not on the tongue. I estimate the two batteries on the tongue weigh around 130 pounds. One lithium is about 36 lbs. I too was surprised when I towed the trailer home with the bare minimum in the front pass through, the TW was 800 lbs! The trailer weighed in at 5160.
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Old 11-18-2021, 06:41 PM   #3
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Model

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokaj View Post
Hi BC, I'm in a similar situation where I am trying to get my tongue weight down. One option I will do is to swap out my 2 6v batteries for a lithium. I will be getting only one and it will be installed in the front pass through, not on the tongue. I estimate the two batteries on the tongue weigh around 130 pounds. One lithium is about 36 lbs. I too was surprised when I towed the trailer home with the bare minimum in the front pass through, the TW was 800 lbs! The trailer weighed in at 5160.
Please what model and year are you referring?
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Old 11-18-2021, 09:20 PM   #4
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2022 Micro Minnie 2225RL.
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Old 11-19-2021, 11:42 AM   #5
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2022 Micro Minnie 2225RL.
Thanks, That's not too far off factory specs

Dry weight 4540
Hitch Weight 560

620lbs of cargo (5160 - 4540)

240lbs extra tongue weight (800 - 560)

- 130lbs batteries
- 40lbs propane liquid (assume 2x 20lbs)
- 93 lbs items in front of axles and in pass thru (620 x 10%)
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Old 11-19-2021, 08:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bcborn View Post
Bottom line I would love to hear what others are getting for tongue weight on their pre 2016 Minnie 2101 or 2016 Micro Minnie on the road with cargo, batteries and propane.
Below is a weight slip with tongue weight that is from when our setup was a 2011 Tacoma TRD OR and our 2016 2106DS. The trailer weight was with an empty fresh water tank, two full 20# propane tanks and one Battle Born 100AH battery in the pass through. I use a Sherline trailer tongue weight scale to measure my tongue weights.
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Old 11-20-2021, 06:49 AM   #7
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I don’t have a Sherline, and I probably should get one. My tongue weight, derived from weighing all contents of truck bed, then CAT scaling truck and trailer is about 575 lbs. it may be close to 600 lbs now because After Scaling, I moved all heavier items from truck bed to pass thru. Needed to do that to get Rear GAWR under limit. I always leave with full fresh + 7gal more under dinette.
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Old 11-20-2021, 11:31 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Fred 2106DS View Post
Below is a weight slip with tongue weight that is from when our setup was a 2011 Tacoma TRD OR and our 2016 2106DS. The trailer weight was with an empty fresh water tank, two full 20# propane tanks and one Battle Born 100AH battery in the pass through. I use a Sherline trailer tongue weight scale to measure my tongue weights.
This was a great example as was the earlier one, thanks

I assume your 2016 2106DS was loaded with all essentials typically included when out camping and the passthrou utilized.

Thanks, That's not too far off factory specs

Trailer Dry weight 3705lbs
Factory Hitch Weight 320lbs
Scaled Trailer Axle Weight 4340lbs
Scaled Hitch Weight 600lbs

635lbs of cargo (4340 - 3705)

280lbs extra tongue weight (600 - 320)

- 31lbs Lithium battery
- 40lbs propane liquid (assume 2x 20lbs)
- 205 lbs items in front of axles and in pass thru (620 x 33%)

Could you have seen yourself cutting some of that extra 205lbs extra tongue to transfer tongue load to the trailer axles?
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Old 11-20-2021, 07:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcborn View Post
This was a great example as was the earlier one, thanks

I assume your 2016 2106DS was loaded with all essentials typically included when out camping and the passthrou utilized.

Thanks, That's not too far off factory specs

Trailer Dry weight 3705lbs
Factory Hitch Weight 320lbs
Scaled Trailer Axle Weight 4340lbs
Scaled Hitch Weight 600lbs

635lbs of cargo (4340 - 3705)

280lbs extra tongue weight (600 - 320)

- 31lbs Lithium battery
- 40lbs propane liquid (assume 2x 20lbs)
- 205 lbs items in front of axles and in pass thru (620 x 33%)

Could you have seen yourself cutting some of that extra 205lbs extra tongue to transfer tongue load to the trailer axles?
Yes, that weigh was on the way out of town to go camping. We have a CAT scale about 5 miles from home.

Yes, I could have moved some stuff rearward inside the camper to lessen the tongue weight, though about the best I could do was 550# at the tongue without going to crazy. I was happy with a tongue weight between 550# and 600#.
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Old 11-20-2021, 08:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marine359 View Post
I don’t have a Sherline, and I probably should get one. My tongue weight, derived from weighing all contents of truck bed, then CAT scaling truck and trailer is about 575 lbs. it may be close to 600 lbs now because After Scaling, I moved all heavier items from truck bed to pass thru. Needed to do that to get Rear GAWR under limit. I always leave with full fresh + 7gal more under dinette.
Jim, I bought the Sherline 1000# scale. The two reasons I picked it verse their 2000# scale is it has scale markings every 20# verse every 50# on the 2000# scale. Also, I read somewhere that a scale's accuracy is best at about 50% of the scale rating. Not sure how true that statement is but it sounded reasonable to me.
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Old 12-07-2021, 05:15 AM   #11
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Just an FYI, I couldn't follow in detail all the calculations, but keep in mind that a WD hitch will actually **** tongue weight back off the truck and push it onto the trailer's axles. So keep that in mind both for your GAWR calcs, and also how you are doing your math if you are hooking/unhooking on the scales.

Though, you also have to keep in mind the WD hitch itself weighs about 100lbs.

I'm also trying to reduce my TW. I don't have lead batteries, I went lithium, unfortunately, I put 510Ah of lithium in the passthrough, which still weighs about 120lbs. Though only 2/3 of that is on the tongue. I wish I had put them under the dinette seats.

I'm thinking of redoing the back bumper with a cargo box on the back.
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Old 12-07-2021, 05:43 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
I'm thinking of redoing the back bumper with a cargo box on the back.
Careful, MM bumper rated at only 75lbs. A good chunk of that used by the spare tire. I figured maybe 35 lbs to spare, so I mounted my 27gal Thetford tote on the bumper. It weighs about 30lbs.
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Old 12-07-2021, 05:52 AM   #13
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Understood. But I'm talking about actually removing the factory bumper and brackets, and installing something more substantial.
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Old 12-07-2021, 05:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
Understood. But I'm talking about actually removing the factory bumper and brackets, and installing something more substantial.
Yeah, good move. I should do that.
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Old 12-07-2021, 11:36 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Marine359 View Post
Careful, MM bumper rated at only 75lbs. A good chunk of that used by the spare tire. I figured maybe 35 lbs to spare, so I mounted my 27gal Thetford tote on the bumper. It weighs about 30lbs.
Curt Makes a good design to install a hitch to trailers.

https://rvpartshop.ca/product/receiv...es-13703.html?
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Old 12-08-2021, 12:32 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bcborn View Post
Curt Makes a good design to install a hitch to trailers.

https://rvpartshop.ca/product/receiv...es-13703.html?
Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
Understood. But I'm talking about actually removing the factory bumper and brackets, and installing something more substantial.
I wouldn't remove the bumper. Although minimal, it's there to provide a level of protection from rear impact. Besides, it's a nice place to store the extra sewer tube

The previous owner of my MM had a hitch installed and I was pretty happy until I actually tried it during a road test. Unfortunately adding any kind of real weight to the rear (250 lbs.+ including the carrier) increased sway and made it somewhat unstable so I don't use it. In fact, I was thinking of removing it to reduce weight.

I removed additional weight from the rear by relocating the spare to the tongue:
https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ue-360779.html

I suppose that could be somewhat rectified if I installed a WD hitch, but I'm safely carrying all the gear I need and personally, an anti-sway bar works well for me.

It's been discussed many times that keeping as much weight above or just forward of the axles (+12% TW) has proven to be an optimal WD condition. Of course, YMMV.
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Old 12-08-2021, 06:06 AM   #17
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I wouldn't remove the bumper. Although minimal, it's there to provide a level of protection from rear impact. Besides, it's a nice place to store the extra sewer tube
I'm not suggesting to simply remove the bumper. I'm talking about removing the OEM bumper, and installing something with exactly the same dimensions, but more wall thickness. Not extreme, but 1/4" brackets and 1/8" wall thickness tube would be much stronger. The goal is to be able to mount a cargo box securely on the rear bumper.

The problem is that I'm already at 660lbs TW when the trailer is empty. Just due to all the off-grid electrical equipment I installed in the pass-through. This already requires me to use a WDH, and even then, I can't get the rear to stop squatting. I did just install heavier rear springs which will help. But a stiff rear suspension does not stop the TW from lifting the front axle. Only a WDH can do that.

But still, I can't really put much in the passthrough at all without increasing the weight even more. In particular, I want a Camp Chef 60X grill, which will increase the TW even more. I'd like to put this in a box on the back bumper instead.

I need to get to the point where I _can_ tow it without a WDH, because you cannot use a WDH for any kind of off-highway travel. Articulation between the truck and trailer can create extremely high forces in the WDH system.

Yes, I'm aware of the TW guidance, I'm quite experienced in this area. The correct TW cannot be reduced to such a simple figure such as 12%. There are a huge number of variables in play. On that point, nothing is more important than a WDH, my truck would be way more stable with 10% TW on a WDH than yours would be with 15% without a WHD. But other things, such as the trailer length, moment of inertia of the trailer, dual vs. single trailer axles, truck wheelbase, tire sidewall stiffness, spring and shock stiffness, etc. all play a huge role.

12% is just a guideline that simplifies it to the point that your average person can kinda get it close to correct.
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Old 12-08-2021, 06:31 AM   #18
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I added a Curt adjustable trailer hitch receiver to carry the 75 lb. weight of our double recumbent trike carrier. I mounted the hitch assembly by both bolting it through the bottom of the camper frame and also having side plates welded between the hitch assembly and camper frame. I also had a plate welded to the receiver tongue and rear camper frame to minimize receiver flex. These additional plates should allow us to safely carry our two recumbent etrikes on the carrier if needed in an emergency. Total weight including carrier would be 175 – 200 lbs. Currently we carry the etrikes inside the camper on a custom rack that sets on the slide platform.
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Old 12-08-2021, 07:59 AM   #19
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12% is just a guideline that simplifies it to the point that your average person can kinda get it close to correct.
My mistake, I should have stated 10-15% or ~12%.
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Old 12-08-2021, 03:09 PM   #20
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My mistake, I should have stated 10-15% or ~12%.
Right, but even the 10-15% is not absolute. I have a trailer with *no* tongue weight. And it's not unstable at all.

Conversely, too much TW can lift the front wheels right off the ground.
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