Micro Minnie FLX critical info

[Speedbump]

Here’s a bit of additional info most FLX owners may have missed. If you store your FLX where it will see below freezing temps and disconnected from power you’ll need to remove the battery. You know, that 68lb beast that is buried in the storage bay behind the shroud and all hooked up.

Pulled mine yesterday and while it isn’t horrible, if you can fit in the storage bay, that is a very awkward space to pull nearly 70lbs of bulky battery out.

Lithionics is quite clear about storing their Lithium batteries above freezing and Lithium batteries are more prone to cold weather damage.

I was annoyed about the FLX settings not being set correctly but how freaking stupid is Winnebago to not consider this when designing these. Let’s see, most of the US will see temps below freezing in the winter and most owners store their RV’s outside without shore power. So let’s bury the battery where it’s a major PITA to remove for the winter. The kicker is, they make these in freaking northern Indiana where they see freezing temps.

If you can plug in, the internal battery heaters will keep the cells warm in temps down to -4 I believe.

[SactoSteve]

Well,…
Thanks for bringing this to our attention!
Living in Sacramento, I have to say I gave no thought to this regarding winter storage, altho it can get below freezing. It appears the battery contains an internal heater that operates when the system is on, but I see no provision to externally power that. So,… when the battery is off (storage mode) “plugging in” doesn’t seem to be an option.
I guess, for those of us in typically above sub-freezing temps, we might want to turn on the battery when/if sub-freezing temps are forecast?

http://https://lithionicsbattery.com...Guide-RevB.pdf

-steve

[Speedbump]

Yeah, it has heaters in with the cells… if it’s connected to shore power. Even then it’s range is only to -4. So, pull the battery or will leaving it on with solar (panels free of snow/ice/frost) be enough?

Lithionics told me it has to be stored above freezing if not connected to shore power. I did reach back out to see if solar is enough or does it need legit juice. Waiting to hear back on that point.

Winnebago on the other hand, after multiple attempts via phone got no one to take the call. 2 hours on hold today for it to go from next in line to 2 callers ahead of me to “we’re having system issues, call back later”. Awaiting response via email.

[SactoSteve]

Originally Posted by Speedbump

Yeah, it has heaters in with the cells… if it’s connected to shore power. Even then it’s range is only to -4. So, pull the battery or will leaving it on with solar (panels free of snow/ice/frost) be enough?
.

So, just to clarify, plugged into shore power implies the system is “on”, that is the battery can’t be “off”. Which kinda means the “storage modes” are not the same as “winter storage”.

Thanks, again,
-Steve

[Marine359]

Surprising Lithionics would say that. There’s a whole world of LiFePo4 battery makers out there, and almost all I know about say in their specs that the battery is safe to store at temperatures as low as -20F and can be used (discharged) below freezing. But must be warmed above 32F before charging. I used to bring my LFP indoors, but left it out all winter last year, and when I fired it up it was at almost the same SOC I left it at before winterizing. I do totally disconnect it from all loads. I just wonder why Lithionics is alone in this matter.

[Speedbump]

I’m seeing most LiFePo4 makers recommending storing above freezing as well. While some say sub zero Fahrenheit storage is okay they mostly say longer than 1 month or so to bring it in.

Considering these units are used from Florida to Alaska, you’d think Winnebago would take all this into consideration before burying these inside to where it is a massive PITA to remove.

[Marine359]

Likely you have that one right Speedbump. Long periods of subzero temps could hurt

[RovingMedics]

I sent a query to Battle Born Batteries asking them what they recommend for winter storage. They're right up the hill in Reno/Sparks, Nevada and it gets plenty cold up there so hopefully they would have tested LiFePO4 batteries outside in their wilderness back yard.

I hope so!

thank for the info too. this is something that we hadn't really thought about.

[Speedbump]

The only reason I questioned it was in Winnebago’s FLX promo video on the battery, they make the statement about storage for longer than 3 months “above freezing”. So I pulled Lithionics specs again and “son of a b….!”. I talked with both their engineer and my dealer to see if they had more info. If it was short term, I would probably not worry about it but mine will be stored outside for about 6 months. Even if it was connected to power, is it okay to have the inverter on non stop?

This is the problem with having a technical background, you question all this crap. ��

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Speedbump

This is the problem with having a technical background, you question all this crap. ��

Actually you are seeking info all FLX owners will need. That’s a hella expensive bunch of parts and details are mega important.

I’m sure many will be awaiting your findings.

[Speedbump]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Actually you are seeking info all FLX owners will need. That’s a hella expensive bunch of parts and details are mega important.

I’m sure many will be awaiting your findings.

Winnebago has gone silent. No answer via phone or email. So I can only go off Lithionics recommendations which is on their site and I verified the need to pull the battery for long term sub-freezing temps with one of their engineers.

If it’s connected to shore power the battery is good to go as the internal heaters will keep it above freezing. If stored less than a month it’s “okay” to -4. Here’s the link for the specifics. https://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Storage-Procedure-Rev-07-WEB.pdf
I’d say it’s an individual’s call based on their own location and typical winter conditions as to whether it needs to be pulled or not. If you’re more southern and less prone to extended periods of freezing temps you’re probably good to leave it. Up Nort’ I’d suggest pulling it. If in Alaska… sucks to be you in winter.

Winnebago rolled these out too fast and did what appears to be little testing. As any FLX owner can attest, Winnebago has completely failed both the dealers and owners as far as providing the necessary info for these systems beyond basic specs. My dealer had no clue about the storage requirements and they’re going to pull them inside through the winter.

Even if these are on shore power all winter, does the continual power affect the inverter? Are the Xantrex units rated for continuous use scenarios?

These things should have been considered by Winnebago but clearly were either missed or blown off. These batteries are $4,500 a pop and the warranty is written to protect Lithionics and not the user. Even if one has issues I’m sure they’ll pro-rate the warranty, which can still put a big financial hit on the user.

[Speedbump]

Finally got a response from Winnebago. In essence, ask Lithionics.

I made sure to point out Winnebago did a piss poor job taking this into consideration when designing the FLX as well as making dealers and owners aware of this.

[Marine359]

As with most RV manufacturers, Winnebago really doesn’t feel it’s their responsibility to extensively field test their product. That’s what buyers are for, right?

The FLX may be more poorly designed than you would expect, buts it’s light years ahead of the competition. They’ll probably get all the kinks worked out shortly after you are six feet under.

Many (including me) envy you FLX owners, especially if bought just before the FLX release, because we’ve been spending a lot of time trying to make our garden variety Micro Minnie’s behave like a FLX, with all the gizmos and stuff. But we still can’t get the Truma gear. I say to FLX owners: “Love it or leave it”. I’m willing to do an even trade with any FLX owner. See, it ain’t so bad is it?

[RovingMedics]

I did email Battle Born and they replied quickly:

"The best method for winter storage and temperature thresholds for Battle Born Batteries is as follows:

***Winter Storage:
1) Bring batteries to a 100% full charge through shore power.
2) Disconnect batteries from the system using an inline battery disconnect switch on the positive battery main.

Batteries will only lose about 3% charge per month while they are in storage mode.

***Temperature Functions:

While using batteries. (Non-Storage)
Discharge: -4F to 135F
Charging: 34F to 135F

While in storage the batteries can be stored at temperatures down to -10F.
If Temperatures will be lower than -10F we recommend moving the batteries to a warmer location."

Theirs are also LiFePO4 batteries, and what they're saying seems consistent with what Lithionics said. I wanted to reach out to another company just as a sanity check.

I agree that those in Alaska and up in Canada might have some issues they might not have been aware of. yikes.

We're trying to have ours out at least once every 3 months, but just in case we don't make it. I wish we had shore power where it's stored.

[Speedbump]

Someone envying the FLX package or FLX owners does not invalidate the realistic expectations that the system be properly tested within its expected operating environment, providing proper storage requirements (they provide winterization for the other systems), and divulging legit info to dealers and owners.

Winnebago clearly states in their own FLX promo video “storage above freezing”, so they fully know what Lithionics recommends. So why not take into account tweaking the storage design so removal is far more accessible or make potential owners aware that depending on winter usage, battery removal may be required. Some potential owners would most definitely pass on buying knowing they’ll have to wrestle a damn near 70lb battery out of the storage bay or pay to have a dealer remove & replace it every season.

The FLX package is definitely fantastic and if you lust after one that much no one is stopping you from buying one. But at least, I’ve made you aware of what to expect as I’m not Winnebago marketing who’s looking to highlight the pros while hiding the cons.

[SactoSteve]

I think we have the answer to the environmental conditions which dictate the removal of the “beast” for winter storage?
But, this issue is making me revisit the blue LED button? I’ve never really understood what it does? Looking back on my notes from my previous exploration of the 2 storage states defined by time seems to add more confusion than clarity.

I received the following responses from WTOW -

Lithionics recommendation
STORAGE LESS THAN 90 DAYS
CHARGE TO 100 %
PARK THE UNIT
TURN OFF DISCONNECT SWITCH (DOWN POSITION)
*
STORAGE LONGER THAN 6MOS
DISCHARGE TO 50% OR HALF BATTERY POWER
PARK THE UNIT
TURN OFF DISCONNECT SWITCH (DOWN POSITION)
EVERY 90 DAYS, CHARGE TO 100% THEN DISCHARGE TO 50% OR HALF BATTERY POWER

This seems to miss, or combine, the < 1mo storage state. So it’s probably better to look at the storage states as driven by environmental conditions and duration, and separate the button breaker confusion.
In other words in storage mode the breaker is thrown and the Lithionics info above should be adhered to along with the envirionmental constraints, Temp and humidity.

I suspect parking and just punching the button when you have another trip planned next month makes sense for customer convenience but sure doesn’t shed any light on what the button does and how its different from throwing the breaker. Sounds like “belt and suspenders”.

-steve

[rickanddeb]

Didn't see an answer to what I thought was a very good question (unless I missed it). Won't the solar panels keep the battery in a state of almost a full charge similar to a trickle charger? Here in Colorado, we may have a winter storm for a day or two but then back into sunny skies with mild temps for several days (40s to 50s). Am I good to go? rick

[Speedbump]

SactoSteve, the blue button is the power switch for the battery and its systems as a whole. It completely shuts it down so there is nothing but a static state. When the battery is left on, it uses more power to manage the BMS, internal heaters, etc.

[Speedbump]

Originally Posted by rickanddeb

Didn't see an answer to what I thought was a very good question (unless I missed it). Won't the solar panels keep the battery in a state of almost a full charge similar to a trickle charger? Here in Colorado, we may have a winter storm for a day or two but then back into sunny skies with mild temps for several days (40s to 50s). Am I good to go? rick

I have had multiple chats with Lithionics trying to understand what truly is necessary for storage in winter. What we came to on the solar front is the solar won’t produce enough amps to provide enough amps to the battery/internal heaters over legit winter conditions. It’s only 380 watts that they can pull after all.

Personally, I have to store mine elsewhere thanks to HOA regulations so I can’t see how much impact cold has on the state of charge. Plus, shorter and cloudier days with snow here and there…. I’d be curious to see what someone who can store their’s at home finds with monitoring the battery through actual winter conditions.

In the end I’m more at ease just pulling it to protect a stupid expensive battery.

[SactoSteve]

Originally Posted by rickanddeb

Didn't see an answer to what I thought was a very good question (unless I missed it). Won't the solar panels keep the battery in a state of almost a full charge similar to a trickle charger? Here in Colorado, we may have a winter storm for a day or two but then back into sunny skies with mild temps for several days (40s to 50s). Am I good to go? rick

I think the crux for Colorado is the temperature issue. As long as you never enter the “storage” state I suspect there would be enough sunlight to keep things charged. But if you got into the range of extended cold, as speced by Lithionics, you’d want to do the long term storage regime Speedbump is doing.

To have the solar charge the battery, you must be in the “nominal” operational mode. Is that a concern long term? I don’t know. We left ours “on” all summer, once we got the basic settings figured out. Aside from one fault state (over temp or over charge?) things seemed fine. Once I connected the thermal probe from the GoPower charger to the battery (tape to the outside of battery). Had no further faults.

In the storage state (battery disconnected), there is no electrical connection to the battery from the solar panels and GoPower charger, so there is no charging. This is true for the Solar on the side connection also. This is a key difference from most trailer solar implementations I’ve seen. With our T@B we could disconnect the loads and trickle charge the battery, which worked great. But it was not a LiFePo battery.

-steve