Question on 2020 View 24D

[rprochnow]

Unfortunately, the fuel pumps only indicate a range (typically 5-20%) - and not the specific blend being used.

So far, we haven't had any problems, and usually stick with the major brands for refueling.

[Elkman]

In California all the biodiesel is BD20 but it is sold primarily at Exxon stations and so easy to avoid - at least so far. With Mercedes saying in the owner manual not to use anything other than BD5 I would bet that they do not provide a warmer for the fuel to keep it from gelling. GM added the warming unit with their diesel engines starting in 2011 and so any biodiesel could be used safely.

[rprochnow]

So if all biodiesel is BD20 in CA and it's easy to avoid by not stopping at Exxon stations, then where can you get BD5 or non-BD in CA?

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Elkman

As of 2021 Mercedes still warns against using anything higher than BD5 biodiesel fuel in the engine. Biodiesel is more prone to gelling and this clogs the fuel filter, especially in cold weather. Diesel fuel additives with stabilizers do help and they cost about $7 per treatment.

Paying the $15 at a CAT scale is something I do with a new rig and again when it is fully loaded for a trip. Lets me know exactly how much stuff we have added. I focus on the load capacity of the tires at each axle as the tires are the limiting factor in terms of the GVWR.

With passenger vehicles the load capacity calculates 150 lbs per occupant and so regular cab pickups will have a much higher payload rating than a crew cab version of the same truck. I would expect with some RV's now providing seat belts and seating for up to 6 passengers this could be factored into the OCCC calculation.

Be careful using any additives with the MB diesel engines. There are warnings in the latest (2019) manuals against using them for fuel, oil, and DEF.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

So if all biodiesel is BD20 in CA and it's easy to avoid by not stopping at Exxon stations, then where can you get BD5 or non-BD in CA?

Look for pumps that state 5% or that are unmarked. Federal law only requires pump labels that state the bio-diesel content for blends higher than 5%.
The question is, can you trust the pump, if it's not marked, or marked as 5%?

[Elkman]

DEF is basically urea solution so not reason to add anything. For motor oil if one is using the API approved motor oil there is not reason to add anything. It is with diesel and gasoline where additives come into play.
Fuel stabilizers are important for gas engines to avoid buildups when the gas is sitting as well as problems with condensation and water getting into the fuel tank.

With diesel it about not having algae growth in the diesel which will completely clog the fuel system and is a very expensive repair. Both types of fuel stabilizers also provide added cleaning of the fuel injectors which helps wth fuel economy.

I have had little experience with Mercedes diesels but a great deal with CAT and GM and Cummins diesel engines and with them fuel stabilizers are routinely used. Look for posts on people having their fuel system clogged and not being able to run their truck or RV and you will get an idea of the potential costs involved - not to mention having your travels interrupted with a stay at the local diesel repair shop.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Elkman

I have had little experience with Mercedes diesels

That's all I need to know.
Spare me the lecture on the use of additives in non-MB diesel engines. I don't care what they do, or do not do, or allow.
The MB Sprinter manuals specifically warn against their use in the oil, fuel, and DEF. I'm just telling you what I read.

[Elkman]

With diesel motor oil roughly 25% of the gallon of oil consists of special additives to protect the engine. The performance of the motor oil depends 100% on the additive mix that is used and some brands like Red Line and Pennzoil have excellent additive mixes and others like Amsoil is terrible.

If the fuel lines clog in your diesel engine's fuel system is it going to be covered under warranty if you do not use additives but not covered if you do and how can they tell? I care about not getting stranded which has happened to us 4 times in the past 10 years with DEF and emissions controls and even when the repairs are under warranty we still had trips interrupted and stays at motels and meals at restaurants.

In the Mercedes manual it states "Mercedes recommends using brand-name fuels with additives. In some countries, the available fuel may not contain sufficient amounts of additives. Deposits could build up in the fuel system as a result. In this case, in consultation with an authorized Mercedes-Benz, the fuel should be mixed with the cleaning additive recommended by Mercedes Benz. You must observe the notes and mixing ratios indicated on the container."


As usual the devil is in the details and critical thinking if possible certainly helps.

[Rand]

2021 VD. Auto level, diesel Gen,theater seats full body paint, everything but a satellite dish. OCCC is 961. Certainly manageable for me.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Elkman

With diesel motor oil roughly 25% of the gallon of oil consists of special additives to protect the engine. The performance of the motor oil depends 100% on the additive mix that is used and some brands like Red Line and Pennzoil have excellent additive mixes and others like Amsoil is terrible.

If the fuel lines clog in your diesel engine's fuel system is it going to be covered under warranty if you do not use additives but not covered if you do and how can they tell? I care about not getting stranded which has happened to us 4 times in the past 10 years with DEF and emissions controls and even when the repairs are under warranty we still had trips interrupted and stays at motels and meals at restaurants.

In the Mercedes manual it states "Mercedes recommends using brand-name fuels with additives. In some countries, the available fuel may not contain sufficient amounts of additives. Deposits could build up in the fuel system as a result. In this case, in consultation with an authorized Mercedes-Benz, the fuel should be mixed with the cleaning additive recommended by Mercedes Benz. You must observe the notes and mixing ratios indicated on the container."


As usual the devil is in the details and critical thinking if possible certainly helps.

That quote in it's entirety from page 235 in the 2019 MB Sprinter OM...

"Notes on additives in gasoline
Observe the notes on operating fluids
(→ page 234).
* NOTE Damage from use of unsuitable
additives
Even small amounts of the wrong additive
may lead to malfunctions.
# Only add cleaning additives recommended
by Mercedes-Benzto the fuel.
Mercedes-Benz recommends using brand-name
fuels with additives.
In some countries, the available fuel may not contain
sufficient amounts of additives. Deposits
could build up in the fuel injection system as a
result.
In this case, in consultation with an authorized
Mercedes-Benz Center, the fuel should be mixed
with the cleaning additive recommended by
Mercedes-Benz.
You must observe the notes and mixing ratios
indicated on the container."

So, your quote is in reference to gasoline engines, not diesels. MB does make gasoline engines, too.

From the same manual, on pages 235-237...

" Notes on fuel grades on vehicles with diesel
engines
General notes
Observe the notes on operating fluids
(→ page 234).
& WARNING Risk of fire from fuel mixture
If you mix diesel fuel with gasoline, the flash
point of the fuel mixture is lower than that of
pure diesel fuel.
While the engine is running, component parts
in the exhaust system may overheat without
warning.
# Never refuel using gasoline in diesel
engines.
# Never mix gasoline with diesel fuel.

NOTE Damage due to incorrect fuel
Even small amounts of the wrong fuel could
result in damage to the fuel system, the
engine and emission control system.
Never refuel with:
R Gasoline
R Marine diesel
R Heating oil
R Pure bio-diesel or vegetable oil
R Paraffin or kerosene
# Do not mix such fuels with diesel fuel
and do not use any special additives.
If you have accidentally refueled with the
wrong fuel, observe the following:
# Do not switch on the ignition.
# Consult a qualified specialist workshop.
* NOTE Malfunctions due to contaminated
fuel
Fuel contamination can lead to malfunctions
in the fuel system.
# If you are using drums or canisters to
refuel the vehicle, you should filter the
fuel before filling.
* NOTE Damage due to incorrect fuel
Incorrect fuel can lead to engine damage.
# Refuel only ULSD or diesel fuel with a
sulfur content of maximum 15 ppm.
Usually you will find information about the fuel
grade on the fuel pump. If there is no identification
on the fuel pump, consult a gas station
attendant.
The fuel grade recommended for your vehicle is
found on the instruction label in the fuel filler
flap .
Notes on low outside temperatures
& WARNING Risk of fire and explosion due
to fuel igniting
If you heat fuel system components, e.g. with
a heat gun or open flame, these components
could be damaged.
Fuel may leak out and ignite. Depending on
the type of damage, fuel might not escape
until the engine is running.
# Never heat fuel system components.
# Consult a qualified specialist workshop
to have the malfunction rectified.
Refill only with commercially available ULTRALOW
SULFUR DIESEL (ULSD, maximum sulfur
content 15 ppm), which fulfills the ASTM D975
standard.
The flow properties of diesel fuel may be inadequate
at low outside temperatures due to paraffin
separation.
% Malfunctions resulting from paraffin separation
can only be rectified by heating the
entire fuel system. Park the vehicle in a
heated garage, for example.
To prevent malfunctions, diesel fuel with
improved flow characteristics is available in the
winter months. You can obtain further information
on this at the gas station or from your fuel
supplier.
Your vehicle is equipped with a fuel preheating
system. This additionally improves the flow characteristics
of the diesel fuel by about 14.5 °F
(8 °C). ULTRA-LOW SULFUR DIESEL can be used
without risk of malfunction down to an outside
temperature of approximately 14.5 °F (-10 °C).
* NOTE Damage due to gasoline or paraffin
Gasoline or paraffin in diesel fuel impairs the
lubricity of the fuel. This can result in damage
to the fuel injection system, for example.
# Do not add any gasoline or paraffin to
diesel fuel to improve its flow characteristics.
B20 fuels with bio-diesel content
* NOTE Damage due to incorrect fuel
Continuous use of fuels with bio-diesel content
over 5% (B20 fuels) can lead to fuel filter
clogging. Deposits may also form on the fuel
injector. This may reduce the engine output.
Unburned fuel can get into the oil pan. This
causes the engine oil level to rise. This can
cause engine mechanical damage.
Observe the following points to avoid damage
and reducing the engine output:
236 Technical data
# Fill up with fuels with bio-diesel content
of 5% (ULSD) or less, whenever possible.
# Regularly check your engine oil level if
you use B20 fuels on a regular basis.
# Strictly follow the oil change intervals
quoted in the instrument cluster and
within your Maintenance Booklet.
# Use only engine oils and filters
approved for use in your vehicle.
# If you do not plan to drive your vehicle
for several weeks, completely fill the
fuel tank in advance with ULSD fuel.
For more information, consult the gas station
staff. The identification of fuels with bio-diesel
content (ULSD or B20) must be clear. If the identification
is not clear, do not refuel. Do not refuel
with any fuels that have not been approved for
your vehicle."

So, it appears that MB diesels do preheat the fuel, lessening the need to mix any additives into the diesel fuel, and Mercedes-Benz specifically states DO NOT USE ANY SPECIAL ADDITIVES.
"how will they know?" They'll test the fuel in a lab and see what's in it that "doesn't belong". They'll also test the DEF and oil, for the same reasons. They are very picky about who is responsible for the cost of warranty work.

[rprochnow]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Look for pumps that state 5% or that are unmarked. Federal law only requires pump labels that state the bio-diesel content for blends higher than 5%.
The question is, can you trust the pump, if it's not marked, or marked as 5%?

Instead of having to stop at multiple stations and then checking each pump, do you have any advice on how we can identify the stations with 0-5% BD on the route ahead, so we aren't hopping from station to station looking for lower BD?

Is there a brand that consistently provides low BD fuel?

Or is there a website or app that can be used?

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

Instead of having to stop at multiple stations and then checking each pump, do you have any advice on how we can identify the stations with 0-5% BD on the route ahead, so we aren't hopping from station to station looking for lower BD?

Is there a brand that consistently provides low BD fuel?

Or is there a website or app that can be used?

Not that I know of. However, you could use one of the "biodiesel locator" websites to see who has it, and then avoid them. Reverse engineering?
I just go by the pumps, or a particular truck stop's reputation, like Pilot/Flying J has a fuel type/bio content on their website.
https://pilotflyingj.com/fuel-prices/

Or ask at the desk/cashier. If they don't know, or don't seem to know, I assume the worst.

[rprochnow]

During our first road trip, we loaded several fueling apps on our smartphones and tried using the apps and websites to find stations with 0-5% BD, and gave up because we weren't able to find any source that reliably provided us the BD content level - and most of the time all we could find was warnings that the fuel could contain up to 20% BD.

The best stops in Texas are at Bucees - that often have pumps without any biodiesel. Other than that, we've pretty much given up in trying to verify 5% or less BD...

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

During our first road trip, we loaded several fueling apps on our smartphones and tried using the apps and websites to find stations with 0-5% BD, and gave up because we weren't able to find any source that reliably provided us the BD content level - and most of the time all we could find was warnings that the fuel could contain up to 20% BD.

The best stops in Texas are at Bucees - that often have pumps without any biodiesel. Other than that, we've pretty much given up in trying to verify 5% or less BD...

Buc-ees is quite an interesting place. They also have gasoline pumps that are marked "no ethanol", and DEF at the pump. We stopped at the one near Katy, TX, last February on our first long trip in our Navion after adding the new lithium batteries. Quite an experience. I'm thinking if they don't have it, it doesn't exist.
I've looked for a reliable "no-bio" diesel locator website, but so far no luck.

[WV Bum]

Wonder if the seating configuration ( dinette or theater seating ) and we are all talking about Murphy bed.

[Elkman]

Biodiesel varies by state as this is a subsidized fuel as with ethanol. Other than at Exxon stations I have not seen biodiesel at the pumps in AZ, NV, OR, WA, or California. Not difficult to avoid and main concern is with the fuel sitting in the fuel tank for a month or longer period of time and if that is the case then add Startron diesel fuel treatment that costs $18 for enough to treat 250 gallons of diesel. Cheap insurance for the fuel system.

Diesel engines have changed over the years to meet tougher emissions requirements and so the current generation of 2019 Sprinters is not exactly the same as older models. Check any light truck (GVWR less than 11,000 lbs) with diesel engines and there are model years that have a very large number of problems and newer ones that may have had improvements.

I wanted a 2020 or newer RV to get the 2019 chassis and MBZ diesel engine. If you look at engines available for RV models from year to year you will find that the engines used could change from one year to the next whether diesel or gas and from diesel to gas or vice versa.

The OCC on our 2021 Navion 24D is only 886 lbs so we would be overweight with a full tank of fresh water and our food and gear and two e-bikes on the rear. If we buy another Class C it will be one built on the Ford 450 chassis.

[BlueGekko]

We just returned from a 3 month, northern tier, coast to coast trip. Had to buy bio diesel in (I think) Iowa because straight diesel wasn’t available.p anywhere. The pump listed it as 5-20% bio diesel so we never really knew what we were using. My ‘19 Navion didn’t notice the difference but then we filled only a few times while crossing the state. I checked regularly and got 15-17 mpg, except when mountain climbing. My advice is to stick to the national brands to ensure the quality of fuel and buy the local brand only when you see a lot of that branded station, again to ensure quality of fuel. In one state we saw Casey’s stations wherever we went but no nat’l brands so we bought the Casey’s fuel. Didn’t notice a difference in mpg or power. BTW, my odometer reads 23500 miles, 3500 miles past my 20000 “A” level check up. Couldn’t get the check up on the road due to months long wait times everywhere. Called a month ago from the road to my MB dealer in Maine for an appt and got one in Oct, their next available date. The Navion is still running as well as when we started the trip in May so it appears - so far - that the bio and off brand fills haven’t affected it. Hope this is reassuring.

[Elkman]

Biodiesel burns cleaner in terms of the injectors but if it sits in the fuel tank for a long period of time there can be algae growth. The algae is what can clog the fuel lines and necessitate a very expensive repair job.

The simple fix for the algae is to use a "fuel stabilizer" and these also have an injector cleaning chemical as well. Take a pint of the stabilizer (cost is around $15) and use it when filling the fuel tank before having the RV sit idle for the winter.

With normal operation the only concern is the fuel filter which needs to be changed much more often with a diesel engine. Diesel fuel is incredibly dirty and even with a filter that in theory removes 98% of the particles in the fuel (and hopefully all the water) that still leaves more than 240,000 particles in each gallon of diesel that pass through and hit the injector solenoids at very high speed. This is why diesel fuel injectors have such a relatively short life as compared to injectors in a gas fueled engine.