OEM battery question

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

1) OK, I'm new to this too. I just put 4,000 miles on my 220A MB alternator, and as far as I can tell, with no ill effects. Batteries were full at EOD of driving.

What I have been told is that Lithium batteries can take a lot of current in charging and that the alternator is not designed to put out so large a flow of current for so long and thus something needs to switch the alternator connection to the battery on and off so that the large current pull will not go on for too long at a stretch. I would think that an alternator would be smart enough to know what it could safely deliver for a specific period of time and switch itself on and off, but then I have to admit to being "mechanically challenged" ...

The guy at Relion Lithium batteries specifically asked me what battery charger I was using and what the alternator model was, so perhaps some are better than others at regulating output. You have a MB chassis and I have a Ford chassis so perhaps they react differently. I don't know and the fact that I don't know is one of the reasons I am so uncertain about what to do. I bought the wrong AGM batteries when I replaced the OEM wet cells and I would rather not do that again.

Y experience does make me wonder about all of this but, as I mentioned, everyone says I need either a battery isolator or a DC-to-DC charger if I am going to get Lithium batteries.

[Winterbagoal]

I guess I'll have to suggest you defer to the Relion guy's answers/recommendations, if you can get him the info for your alternator and charger. As I said, I'm not an expert, just a "so far, so good" guy that dropped in a pair of 100Ah Relion batteries connected in parallel.
I have a PD9245 converter/charger with the Charge Wizard Pendant for manual rate of charge adjustment. I have no idea what model alternator I have. It would be whatever was used on the 2017 Sprinter 3500 cab chassis. I do know it's rated at 14V/220A. I've seen it run at 14.1 to 14.2 volts on the freeway, on my SGII.
A few years ago, Jodi at BB said my setup (220A alternator, PD9245 charger, Zamp PWM ZS-30A solar charge controller w/300W of solar) would be fine (no mention of an alternator isolator) to go with a pair of their BB10012 units. FWIW.
I wish I could give you a definitive answer, but all I have is my own experience to date. So far, my setup seems fine, and works well. If that changes suddenly, I'll let you know. Sorry, best I can do.

[CoastalEd]

AJMike - as a long time 2018 Fuse owner, and being in daily discussions with many dozens of other Fuse owners, let me offer some accurate info pertinent to your original post.

The Winnebago provided battery for the Fuse house battery is the Napa 8240 wet cell - Group 24 size. .... spec'd at ~75Ah.

Many of my fellow Fuse owners, myself included, have replaced these leaky wet cells with AGM batteries. We have found that Group 31 batteries will fit on the Fuse battery shelf. A very popular choice has been the Renogy 12V 100Ah AGM, available at Home Depot, some other places, and on Amazon. Amazon is currently listing their Prime price at $200. each with free shipping. Some other Fuse owners have chosen the Sam's Club Duracell AGM 100Ah but that is not a true deep discharge type, although its certainly better than any wet cell.
The Renogy battery weighs 66 pounds - I have two on the shelf as most others who did this do also. I know of only one case where that battery shelf support strap steel weld broke. The owner beefed that point up with no further problems....and a couple other Fuse owners acted preemptively doing the same thing. Most of us with two 66 pound batteries just monitor the battery shelf support periodically. In two years I have seen no problem on mine.

Now let me discuss another issue raised in subsequent discussion in this thread -
the Ford Transit alternator charging system. The Ford diesel Transit has what Ford calls a Smart Charge alternator system for the Ford AGM engine batteries under the driver's seat. This ensures proper charge and float maintenance on that battery. HOWEVER, Winnebago has added the house battery bank to the system that the Ford Smart Charge must charge while the engine is running. The problem this raises is that due to the increased battery capacity the house batteries add to the Ford Smart Charge alternator, it never drops down to float maintenance mode. This causes all the batteries to be charged excessively on long drives.....not a healthy thing for AGM batteries.
A number of Fuse owners, myself included, have made a very simple mod to alleviate this problem. The large solenoid relay that connects the house batteries to the chassis battery ( and also the alternator) is located behind the easily removable panel in the Fuse door entry area. I simply mounted a SPST toggle switch in that panel and routed the yellow control wire going to that battery solenoid relay through the switch so that I can selectively disconnect the house batteries from the Ford battery and alternator. With the solar panels seeming to keep the house batteries up, I rarely find the need to engage that solenoid.

Hope AJMike finds this info helpful.....

Ed

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

Many of my fellow Fuse owners, myself included, have replaced these leaky wet cells with AGM batteries. We have found that Group 31 batteries will fit on the Fuse battery shelf. A very popular choice has been the Renogy 12V 100Ah AGM, available at Home Depot, some other places, and on Amazon. Amazon is currently listing their Prime price at $200. each with free shipping. Some other Fuse owners have chosen the Sam's Club Duracell AGM 100Ah but that is not a true deep discharge type, although its certainly better than any wet cell.
The Renogy battery weighs 66 pounds - I have two on the shelf as most others who did this do also. I know of only one case where that battery shelf support strap steel weld broke. The owner beefed that point up with no further problems....and a couple other Fuse owners acted preemptively doing the same thing. Most of us with two 66 pound batteries just monitor the battery shelf support periodically. In two years I have seen no problem on mine.

So if there has been at least one support failure then I assume my concern has not been without reason. Perhaps it is not a big issue but then again I suppose I should have someone look at beefing up the support. At least get an estimate so I will know what might be involved.

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

Now let me discuss another issue raised in subsequent discussion in this thread -
the Ford Transit alternator charging system. The Ford diesel Transit has what Ford calls a Smart Charge alternator system for the Ford AGM engine batteries under the driver's seat. This ensures proper charge and float maintenance on that battery. HOWEVER, Winnebago has added the house battery bank to the system that the Ford Smart Charge must charge while the engine is running. The problem this raises is that due to the increased battery capacity the house batteries add to the Ford Smart Charge alternator, it never drops down to float maintenance mode. This causes all the batteries to be charged excessively on long drives.....not a healthy thing for AGM batteries.
A number of Fuse owners, myself included, have made a very simple mod to alleviate this problem. The large solenoid relay that connects the house batteries to the chassis battery ( and also the alternator) is located behind the easily removable panel in the Fuse door entry area. I simply mounted a SPST toggle switch in that panel and routed the yellow control wire going to that battery solenoid relay through the switch so that I can selectively disconnect the house batteries from the Ford battery and alternator. With the solar panels seeming to keep the house batteries up, I rarely find the need to engage that solenoid.

So what you are saying is that Winnebago disturbed the electrical charge system that Ford provided by adding the house batteries to the load to be charged by the alternator and that this change has had an adverse affect on the way the batteries get charged. That the lack of float charge is affecting the AGM batteries badly. Perhaps not in an acute way but in a chronic way. I find that both interesting and disturbing.

As for us, we don't do a lot of long time boondocking and in fact normally travel at least every other day. I depend upon the alternator to fully charge the batteries and your comment is that in doing so I am damaging the AGMs that I have used to replace the wet cells that Winnebago delivered with the coach. I think you are suggesting removing them from the charging circuit as a fix for that. Would not adding a knife switch to the coach battery connection accomplish the same thing? Or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

Hope AJMike finds this info helpful.....

Oh yes. Thank you for the information. Every little bit I learn add to what little I know about this and so I am grateful. A bit confused, but grateful ...

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

Now let me discuss another issue raised in subsequent discussion in this thread - the Ford Transit alternator charging system.
Ed

CoastalEd's post is the very first I've seen with ANY concerns for the Ford Transit alternator with standard AGM batteries. Is this something being discussed in Travato, Fuse, etc discussions?

Where did you hear about this potential problem? I'd like to know more about it. If AGMs could be overcharged so could the OEM FLA batteries. I'm surprised that Winnebago would not be aware of such an issue.

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by creativepart

CoastalEd's post is the very first I've seen with ANY concerns for the Ford Transit alternator with standard AGM batteries. Is this something being discussed in Travato, Fuse, etc discussions?

Where did you hear about this potential problem? I'd like to know more about it. If AGMs could be overcharged so could the OEM FLA batteries. I'm surprised that Winnebago would not be aware of such an issue.

I believe it is not discussed heavily because most people are either not aware of it, or don't understand what it is about. If you own a Ford Transit 350 Turbo diesel cutaway based motor home, its easy to see what I spoke of. Simply check the voltage on your house batteries periodically while driving, and at the end of a long trip before shutting the engine off. You will see that your AGM batteries are constantly sitting at around 14.7 volts, even though they have long ago been fully charged. This is not healthy in the long run ... it heats up the electolyte and causing gassing, which the battery can never recover like a wet cell can. In the long run you are shortening the life of the AGM battery. After I made my modification by adding a switch to disable alternator charging of house batteries, I made same measurements and was pleased to see house batteries sitting at a normal 13.5 float voltage after being fully charged by solar. Also measured and noted that the Ford engine battery also was now dropping down to the nominal 13.5 volts when fully charged.....this means that the Ford Smart Charge alternator was now able to function as it was designed.

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by AJMike

So what you are saying is that Winnebago disturbed the electrical charge system that Ford provided by adding the house batteries to the load to be charged by the alternator and that this change has had an adverse affect on the way the batteries get charged. That the lack of float charge is affecting the AGM batteries badly. Perhaps not in an acute way but in a chronic way. I find that both interesting and disturbing.


Yes -- that is what I am saying. ( see a subsequent post I just made ).


As for us, we don't do a lot of long time boondocking and in fact normally travel at least every other day. I depend upon the alternator to fully charge the batteries and your comment is that in doing so I am damaging the AGMs that I have used to replace the wet cells that Winnebago delivered with the coach. I think you are suggesting removing them from the charging circuit as a fix for that. Would not adding a knife switch to the coach battery connection accomplish the same thing? Or am I missing something?


Adding a knife switch to the house battery would work with regard to this issue, but would also disconnect other things that should remain functioning while driving. The solution I used, in my opinion, is the simplest and most elegant for those not wanting to delve into a more exotic wiring change.




Oh yes. Thank you for the information. Every little bit I learn add to what little I know about this and so I am grateful. A bit confused, but grateful ...

You are very welcome. Its nice to see discussion here in this forum from fellow Fuse owners. Most of them seem to be on the Facebook group. Good luck!

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

You are very welcome. Its nice to see discussion here in this forum from fellow Fuse owners.

Given that I have pretty much given up my search for Lithium due to the cost, this is pretty much a curiosity question, but does the same issue exist for Lithium house batteries?

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Given that I have pretty much given up my search for Lithium due to the cost, this is pretty much a curiosity question, but does the same issue exist for Lithium house batteries?

Excellent question but one I cannot properly answer. The chemistry and charging requirements for the LiOn batteries are much different and safety requires they be adhered to stringently. LiFePo (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries are much safer, but still require a different charging regimen. I do not think one can safely and properly charge Lithium batteries directly from an alternator like SLA batteries can be done. A DC-DC charger converter is required l think ...... and possibly other items. Also, I do not believe the Progressive Dynamics charger/converter in your Fuse is capable of properly charging Lithium batteries. I do know that the Zamp Solar charge controller on the Fuse DOES have that capability at the push of a button selection for battery types.
In brief, yes, an issue would also exist for Lithium batteries just plunked into the Fuse ... but different and more severe than the issue with SLA batteries.
.

[Kbwitt]

New to RV so just wondering about golf cart batteries for house battery. I use Trojan brand in my golf cart very good but Trojen is heavy because they have big lead plates.

[highfeather]

I have a 2016 23A. It's stored here at home and I'll see if I can get a model number for you. It's $%^## snowing here so I'll need to bundle up a bit but will post when I get back.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by creativepart

CoastalEd's post is the very first I've seen with ANY concerns for the Ford Transit alternator with standard AGM batteries. Is this something being discussed in Travato, Fuse, etc discussions?

Where did you hear about this potential problem? I'd like to know more about it. If AGMs could be overcharged so could the OEM FLA batteries. I'm surprised that Winnebago would not be aware of such an issue.

If the engine (chassis) battery(ies) in the Transit are also AGMs (as stated by Ed), why does the Smart Alternator not kill them, too?
The suggestion that the added battery capacity (all AGMs in the example?) causes the Ford Smart Charge Alternator to never drop to float mode is a little suspect, since the battery bank should look like one big AGM to the FSCA, and drop down when the AGMs are fully charged, if the FSCA actually functions like a coach battery converter/cherger, which is what you're implying. As soon as the voltage balances across the batteries, the FSCA should detect that and drop down.
Checking voltages at the batteries while the engine is running (as stated by Ed) will always show the voltage output of the alternator, which may be in the 14V range with the engine idling, and will probably show a surface charge which may also be higher than the preferred lower state of charge, when they have been at rest for a while.

[Markap6]

I have a 2019 V24D. I replaced the two group 24 Napas with two GC2 6V from Batteries+. 235 ah each. Driven about 12,000 miles since on some very rough roads - no problems at all.

Niece (getting PhD in battery technology) says wait about 4-5 more years for much cheaper Lithiums

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Markap6

I have a 2019 V24D. I replaced the two group 24 Napas with two GC2 6V from Batteries+. 235 ah each. Driven about 12,000 miles since on some very rough roads - no problems at all.

Niece (getting PhD in battery technology) says wait about 4-5 more years for much cheaper Lithiums

Tell her to hurry it up.
Some us may not live that long.

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

<<snipped>>
Checking voltages at the batteries while the engine is running (as stated by Ed) will always show the voltage output of the alternator, which may be in the 14V range with the engine idling, and will probably show a surface charge which may also be higher than the preferred lower state of charge, when they have been at rest for a while.

The voltage I and my fellow Fuse owners measure being applied by the Ford Smart Charge alternator to our batteries while driving is 14.7 volts. Applying 14.7 volts to an already fully charged AGM battery repeatedly for several hours a day will exceed charge recommendations by any AGM manufacturer. Such constant and repeated overcharge will force some gassing from the battery and shorten its life span.

To repeat my previous post, AFTER disconnecting my house batteries from the Ford alternator charging, I then measured and noted that the Ford chassis battery was then dropping down after becoming fully charged to a proper 13.5 volts....as it should be. It seems obvious to me that the Ford Smart Charge alternator was designed to operate only with the Ford chassis battery and that by Winnebago adding the house batteries to it's workload, the Ford Smart Charge alternator no longer functioned as designed.....

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

The voltage I and my fellow Fuse owners measure being applied by the Ford Smart Charge alternator to our batteries while driving is 14.7 volts. Applying 14.7 volts to an already fully charged AGM battery repeatedly for several hours a day will exceed charge recommendations by any AGM manufacturer. Such constant and repeated overcharge will force some gassing from the battery and shorten its life span.

To repeat my previous post, AFTER disconnecting my house batteries from the Ford alternator charging, I then measured and noted that the Ford chassis battery was then dropping down after becoming fully charged to a proper 13.5 volts....as it should be. It seems obvious to me that the Ford Smart Charge alternator was designed to operate only with the Ford chassis battery and that by Winnebago adding the house batteries to it's workload, the Ford Smart Charge alternator no longer functioned as designed.....

I recently saw an RVing with Tito video in which he talked about charging his batteries. Those were Lithium so this may not seem to have any bearing on your post, but what he did was install a DC-DC charger and then have the ON/OFF switch hooked to a manual switch in the RV rather than to the ignition switch. That way he said that he could turn the alternator charge on or off when he wished and protect his batteries.

Perhaps something like that is a good idea for AGMs as well.

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

If the engine (chassis) battery(ies) in the Transit are also AGMs (as stated by Ed), why does the Smart Alternator not kill them, too?
.

It does. The Ford chassis battery is also being constantly subjected to the same constant 14.7 charge as the house batteries.

To answer another poster's question, this subject as been raised and discussed by dozens of other Fuse owners.....most of whom have made similar modifications as I have to disconnect Ford charging from the house battery bank. This problem is easily unrecognized by most Fuse owners who may never know they are shortening the life of all their AGM batteries.....
Winnebago Fuse owners really ought to check out the Facebook group where hundreds of Fuse owners lurk.....

[creativepart]

Ed, when you say it I have to admit it sounds plausible. BUT.... I then I think, how can this be?

1. It can't just be the FUSE model that has this issue.
2. There are hundreds of thousands of other motorized RVs being charged the same way
3. Isn't there a regulator in the charging system of the RV that is reducing amps being applied to the house batteries? Sure 14.7v but at what rate? If the rate is low then it won't matter.

These questions are above my level of knowledge - but the questions cause me to have serious doubts that this is a FUSE issue and that it's really an issue that needs addressed. Why isn't EVERY motorhome owner concerned about this?

[creativepart]

Not the end of the story I'm sure, but when I did some alternator/regulator research I found this information:

The battery presents a variable load to the alternator; when it is at
(say) 12V0 then it's around half capacity and the alternator will put
maximum charge into the battery by increasing the system voltage to
14V5 (or whatever).

As the battery gains charge its terminal voltage rises and according
to Ohms law, because the differential between alternator voltage and
battery voltage is now less, so the current forced into the battery
reduces.

In addition to this the electronics in the alternator (voltage
regulator) will reduce the system voltage according to a
predetermined curve so as the battery terminal voltage rises thus the
system voltage will reduce. The idea is to charge the battery back to
(say) 85% as soon as possible but not to overcharge it.

Once the alternator is satisfied that the battery is near to full
charge it will reduce the system voltage to around 13V8 which is the
"float charge" voltage for 12V lead acid batteries and the nicest
thing you can do to a lead acid battery is to keep it on float
charge. Essentially, this process compensates for internal losses in
the battery and maintains it at maximum charge thus minimising
sulphation.

Temperature plays a part in this process too and modern alternators
measure underhood temperature and adjust their charging curves
accordingly.

It may be contrary to what the common accepted theory is on the Fuse Facebook group, but it certainly makes sense to me.

And, Ed, I'm certainly not trying to argue with you just trying to get these questions answered.

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Ed, when you say it I have to admit it sounds plausible. BUT.... I then I think, how can this be?

1. It can't just be the FUSE model that has this issue.
2. There are hundreds of thousands of other motorized RVs being charged the same way
3. Isn't there a regulator in the charging system of the RV that is reducing amps being applied to the house batteries? Sure 14.7v but at what rate? If the rate is low then it won't matter.

These questions are above my level of knowledge - but the questions cause me to have serious doubts that this is a FUSE issue and that it's really an issue that needs addressed. Why isn't EVERY motorhome owner concerned about this?

1 & 2) I would tend to agree. Likely any Ford Transit Diesel chassis based motor home may have this issue if the coach batteries are connected to the alternator charging system. However, many, if not most, of these small RVs come with wet cells rather than AGMs in the battery bay. When wet cells overcharge and vent gas, it is a simple matter for the operator to add water to the electrolyte. Can't do that with AGMs. Once they vent gas, that electrolyte cannot be replaced. But yes, the Ford AGM chassis battery is subjected to the same problem.
Added on edit: This issue is not necessarily a rapid killer of batteries.... but certainly would contribute to less life span than had the problem not occurred.



3) Mike, it is apparent to me that you are not up to speed on battery technology and charging. In my opinion, the 'regulation' in the Ford Smart Charge alternator system was designed to work with the Ford AGM battery under the driver's seat. The addition of a substantially larger capacity house battery system is screwing up the Smart Alternator system to where it never sees reaching a full charge so that it can drop down to float level (~13.5)

One of the three biggest killers of batteries in RVs is overcharging. ( the others are lack of keeping electrolyte levels up in wet cells and terminal corrosion caused by venting wet cell gas). You cannot simply keep an AGM battery at 14.7 volts without the corresponding additional current (beyond design capacity) being forced into that battery. This generates heat in the battery, which in turn causes some electrolyte to vent as gas. ... irreplaceable electrolyte in AGMs.


Please, Mike, take a look here for some trusted and reliable battery information. I would suggest you pay particular attention to the paragraphs directly below Table 2 .
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_battery