Norcold PROBLEM, compressor driven reefer

[SeeTheUSA]

Heads up to those considering purchasing a new Winnebago with the whiz-bang new Norcold DE-0061 compressor driven refrigerator ...

DON’T BUY ONE! Just to be sure I’m clear ... DON’T BUY ANTHING WITH THIS MODEL REFRIGERATOR!

At least not until a “fix” has been identified and promulgated. Several folks are having trouble with theirs, including me, and Norcold has been unresponsive. Actually Winnebago hasn’t done anything to raise the problem flag, either, but they keep installing the Norcold Junk Box at the factory and are ready for you to drop your load of cash at your local dealer. It’s the only model you can get on a 24D View/Navion and it appears to be showing up in other models, too.

The Norcold simply cannot regulate either the freezer or the refrigerator properly, not within FDA guidelines and not anything close to acceptable ... it’s just unsafe! Very frustrating.

There are discussions on the Skinnie-Winnie Group, but much more on iRV2, this thread:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f101/view...ue-380275.html

It’s a long thread, over 100 messages now, but it gets more defined as you progress through, so more meaningful on later posts than on earlier ones.

Please, anyone who’s had a problem, has a problem, knows of a fix, or discovers they have a problem after taking a look at what some of us have already presented, please BE SURE to add some details, preferably on the iRV2 thread, but here or on the Skinnie-Winnie Group is okay, too.

Thanks!

[luvlabs]

I've read all of those posts and there is probably 6-8 customers reporting the problem. A significant number of those posts have been generated by Kayak70 and yourself. There are probably 100-200 of these refrigerators installed and some percentage of that group are on this forum, IRV2, and the Skinny-Winnie Yahoo group. The percentage reporting problems is really pretty small and they are still fewer than the customers with adsorption refrigerators.

There also seems to be two generations of these refrigerators in use. Winnebago built 100 24D models initially to, I assume, debug the platform. These units came out as 2018 models in the fall of 2017. Somewhere with the announcement of the other 2018 models, they started adding the new Norcold to all models. (Winnebago phases in changes instead of a cutoff).

If these becomes a non-repairable problem, then Winnebago and Norcold should be thinking recall. It may actually take a while to analyze data, engineer a solution, and implement a fix. The real tests will begin as the weather warms. I would be hesitant to tell people not to buy a Navion/View with this refrigerator as they may never see the problem.

The FDA, btw, doesn't mandate food freezer temps - they just recommend a range for safe food handling. Their recommendations apply to residential and commercial food storage units. I not sure that they have ever been extended to RV refrigeration. Don't forget, it wasn't all that long ago, that ice chests were the storage solution for campers.

[SeeTheUSA]

Originally Posted by luvlabs

... snip ...Don't forget, it wasn't all that long ago, that ice chests were the storage solution for campers.

I remember those days! I’d be much less frustrated if my problem was related to just an chest that didn’t cost much rather than a motorhome that costs many thousands of dollars.

As far as alerting potential buyers of a possible problem, I’m just running with my definition of advice .... “guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable.” Folks can take it or leave it.

I wish someone with knowledge of the potential problem with the Norcold had given me guidance or recommendations!

[SeeTheUSA]

Here’s one of many resources about FDA refrigerator/freezer guidelines:

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/R.../UCM109315.pdf

Their guidelines seemingly are related to food and humans, not where a particular refrigeration unit is located. Bottom line for food storage is, whatever is safe at home is safe anywhere else.

[staggerlee]

Originally Posted by SeeTheUSA

Here’s one of many resources about FDA refrigerator/freezer guidelines:

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/R.../UCM109315.pdf

Their guidelines seemingly are related to food and humans, not where a particular refrigeration unit is located. Bottom line for food storage is, whatever is safe at home is safe anywhere else.

Sounds logical.

[Kayak73]

Well implying that FDA recommendations do not extend to RV refrigerators is a stretch to favor something. That's a lot like saying Michelin tire recommendations to check tire pressure do not apply to RVs. Foolishness going on somehow!

My list of owners reporting a problem has grown to exactly 12 names. Some do not post or want their email/name given and that's not my choice. I have carefully read my posts and others on iRV2 and on Yahoo groups. By choice I do not FBook, don't want to, but some are posted there I understand.

If there is some reference to exactly who is posting the problem - well, it is those of us who want sincerely potential buyers to know about it before they are caught in the trap we are experiencing.

Actually it might be prudent to paint the View yellow and put a big Norcold sign on it with lemons saying just that - I have a Norcold, it is junk, do not buy anything like this. Yes, that would be nice.

These forums allow fairly free expression of ideas and disagreement is necessary, like diversity makes us strong.

I stopped recently trying to educate others about the MAXX7 engine, go for it, I tried. That's because there is enough real evidence on the internet now for anyone to read and understand those issues.

When it comes to the DE0061R unit WGO and others are installing there is also some evidence other than the RV forums regarding the problems. It takes research to find it and any unsuspecting potential buyer would not be inclined to do that research on a refrigerator. There is far more reporting of this DE0061 failure on Marine forums and vendor sites which sell Marine products including this refrigerator.

Numbers might be important, 12 is important to me, but there are hundreds of reports out there and I feel WGO was well aware or should have been of those issues. In one case you can find with a hard search several boat owners gathered and dumped their DE0061 refrigerators into the ocean. Some of them had used the old model for many years and replaced it with this new model - it failed. They replaced with various units, some I listed on the other site.

Do I think people are using this model refrigerator blissfully unaware their health is being compromised - absolutely! When they find obvious symptoms of rotten food they might then take action and put a thermometer in the freezer and see what's going on. Remember, lots of RV drivers do not actually check tire pressure regularly until they have a blowout and get warped about the quality of the tires or worse yet, have a bad accident. That's just the way folks are sometimes, especially new owners. After 20 years + of driving RVs of various makes and models I still know just a tiny little bit but I am learning. Maybe someday I can be an expert on such matters but expert is an often misused term anyway.

For now we are ready to take our first outing the the V24D. The refrigerator is set on 4 and holding about 17*F +- a few in the freezer and the refrigerator is around 34*F. That means we can use the freezer to store things perhaps 3 days. I can not set it colder because medicine I need to live is stored in the bottom section and any higher setting freezes everything in the bottom rock solid. No big deal, short trip, lot of good food to be had nearby and a commissary on base just a short drive away. When we return I will try to decide on a replacement for the junk Norcold and get it set up. That's because I believe the FDA guidelines apply to any location for food storage, home, motel, RV - you name it. Food is food and food storage should be at 0*F in the freezer. Whatever is in the bottom can NOT be frozen, that's why there are two sections.

BTW, yes the RV industry has been allowed to float freely without enough oversight and many times in danger mode because unsuspecting buyers are dealt with in a fraudulent manner. YMMV.

[staggerlee]

Originally Posted by Kayak73

Well implying that FDA recommendations do not extend to RV refrigerators is a stretch to favor something. That's a lot like saying Michelin tire recommendations to check tire pressure do not apply to RVs. Foolishness going on somehow!


BTW, yes the RV industry has been allowed to float freely without enough oversight and many times in danger mode because unsuspecting buyers are dealt with in a fraudulent manner. YMMV.

I agree, 32 degrees is 32 degrees if you are in your stick house, or rv.
Or outside, or in the mountains , just anywhere. Its still 32 degrees.
So people should follow the numbers no matter where they are, or what they are doing. Even an ice chest.

[Kayak73]

For those who might wonder we have the refrigerators working pretty good right now. Finally replacement and air flow blocking to prevent freeze up in the bottom section and we can get 0*F in the freezer and 36-39*F in bottom section. New reports of thermostat failures continue to appear in various forums so the bad units are still "in the wild". For several reporting the thermostat replacement has provided success. Good news.

Final install and fix if they replace the thermostat I suggest you ask them to connect both the 12VDC and 120AC for the refrigerator for better results.

[Kayak73]

BTW, owners are still getting rigs with this problem. Some are reporting thermostat replacement does the fix, and just recently another owner on the parent forum states his thermostat replacement has had the exact results ours did - in other words, it ain't fixed yet. Do not go out and buy a V/N with this fridge unless you are ready to deal with this for two or three months, then again, you might get lucky. They say even a blind mule occasionally does.

[SarahW]

Well, that seals the deal on postponing our Navion shopping. I need to go check the thread on iRV2.

[Wackyboater]

I bought an early 2018 View 24d and have had problems with my Norcold unit. Especially the freezer not staying cold enough. I'm trying to get a new unit as we speak under warranty. It seems to run good for the first day or so and then temps. Are all over the place each day. It did this since day one. I hope they figure this out. Norcold told me they weren't having problems. Winnebago told me to call them. Lol.

[SeeTheUSA]

Originally Posted by Wackyboater

I bought an early 2018 View 24d and have had problems with my Norcold unit. Especially the freezer not staying cold enough. I'm trying to get a new unit as we speak under warranty. It seems to run good for the first day or so and then temps. Are all over the place each day. It did this since day one. I hope they figure this out. Norcold told me they weren't having problems. Winnebago told me to call them. Lol.

Some folks have had their problems somewhat solved with a thermostat change, others needed an entirely new unit. When you talk to Norcold Customer Service, ask to talk to Ed Miner ... chances are they will have him call you. He was helpful in getting our unit replaced (after the thermostat change didn’t help).

When you get a chance, read through the thread on iRV2 Forum .... many details about this issue there. Guaranteed Norcold knows there’s a problem. Winnebago too (in general knows, maybe the individual with whom you spoke didn’t), yet they keep selling rigs with this device! My advice, remain pleasant with whomever you speak, better chance of getting help.

[Kayak73]

Sad I hate to beat a dead horse but Norcold knows and WGO knows. Perhaps someone needs to start a class action for incompetence, arrogance and just plain bad behavior or theft by deception or something. Personally at this time it is my honest plain old country boy opinion that WGO enjoys seeing owners suffer with this problem. Be nice? Heck fire, when were they nice - when they were sitting around the table laughing about all the poor suckers who dumped cash on these things. How can anyone be nice when they are still denying the problem after all this time? I expect Norcold phone answer folks to deny the problem - the fix is coming on their dime; no excuse for WGO. What happened to the WGO I bought two rigs from in the past? That company was great, easy to work with and provided excellent customer care. Remember the vehicle was assembled and marketed by WGO, Norcold just made the refrigerator. If it is a major issue and keeps showing up that means it hasn't been addressed properly - that mess falls on only one plate - Winnebago. It is a lot like this, you bought a new car worth $100k. The thing has a $2000 in dash stereo and it broke. Do you call the darn stereo manufacturer or the car service center... I really dislike the take Winnebago has on this problem. They can not distance themselves from the one year warranty, try as they might it is there. It is 100% a Winnebago problem and they stink for pushing customers onto a third party. Winnebago all the way and every way is responsible for this debacle. When Tiffin owners have a refrigerator problem in the initial warranty they get it fixed by Tiffin. Never heard of the nonsense Winnebago is pushing onto good customers (who by now will never spend another dime on their attitude and crappy service).


Wackyboater? Stubby boats, silly boats, power boats or another wacky kayaker?

[SeeTheUSA]

Bill,

I said “my advice” ... the new guy can take it or leave it.

It is my experience whether dealing with kids, spouses, dogs and pretty much everyone else that taking the high road gets you closer to your goal than it would by jumping up and down. All the folks at the WGO Call Center will still politely talk to me and that’s to my benefit. I also don’t need any lawyers, mediators, or such.

Sadly Tiffin really didn’t fix the MaxxForce 7 engine issue they had with their Breeze product, of which we both formerly owned. Us Breeze owners never got to take our rigs to Red Bay or Tiffin Dealer for any type of resolution, those were handled (using that term loosely) by International/NaviStar. I really don’t see this Norcold issue is much different, just much less serious.

We all have to do what we think is best. So I reckon’ the new guy here has a couple of recommendations.

Warren

[Kayak73]

Well I did not mean to rattle your cage Warren. I have no use for attorneys either but they have a place and a time for some things. As far as I know the folks at WGO will still speak to me but one has a cob. I could not agree more with the method of speaking to get good resolution, I practice that myself but on these two forums I believe we have both spoken to the point in some detail about this issue.


The engine is a chassis/drivetrain component. Sprinter engines have about the same amount of verbage out there with emissions, just not a completely different design and the DEF solution is the accepted way to meet EPA guidelines at this time. I agree, the Maxx 7 issue was a disaster but in every single case Tiffin stepped up to the plate for me. When a cruddy International dealer charged for warranty work Tiffin sent a check to reimburse me for that expense quickly and with a smile and warm regards on the phone and by email. Gary Harris was great to work with. I can not fault Tiffin for installing the Maxx7, at the time it was the best thing and only diesel which made the design of the early Breeze possible. BTW, yes, they did step up to the plate and now that model has a Cummins engine. We both had the Maxx 7 bad engine issues and we both dumped otherwise decent rigs because of it. By the time you purchased your Breeze and I was into the second year of ownership with mine Tiffin was already testing the solution, the Cummins engine for that chassis. After a burp with the cooling it was put to market and is performing well from what I hear. In reality every single diesel engine on the market today is likely to have emissions issues and CELs. Look around on the forums, Cummins is not immune and Mercedes certainly not either. The air is cleaner though, for the most part the new guidelines are helping but at great expense to reliability on the road. The issue was so bad for International they would have folded except for large contracts in place.


Now look back over the thread here and especially at iRV2 and I believe there were plenty of comments about Norcold from both of us. It is a sad situation. Personally if no one at WGO wants to talk to me I have no issue with that but so far I have found no indication of that in reality except from Tommy. He was rude, I was insistent and we parted amicably and calmly. My calls were professional and to the point - fix the issue. I also stand by my comments about their care - WGO has little left for me. I recommend ANYONE to stay away from them and this particular model RV with this particular refrigerator. In reality I do not know if WGO influenced Norcold to replace our units, possibly they did since Norcold was pretty cold to the problem until Ed stepped in. He was indeed courteous and extremely helpful.


I started the massive thread over at iRV2. It was needed and by indications it has helped steer several potential buyers away from this model. That is a good thing to me. Now if a buyer goes into this refrigerator mess knowing up front about it - good enough and with enough time and complaints they probably will eventually get it repaired just as we did. It is just a matter of spending a few months of your life and time dealing with it and WGO still is apparently telling folks there is no problem or handing the problem off to a third party. That is deplorable and bad business.


Now if you or I have a Sprinter engine issue I do not think either of us will expect WGO to do anything about it? Tiffin did for me. They stepped in to assist with cash, they made the warranty claims solid with no dispute and where necessary mediated with International for repairs. I believe in mediation, I have used it in the distant past on a new Dodge '92 diesel with wheels that were bad. After a struggle with dealers and Dodge I requested mediation and presented facts. The mediator showed up and we went for a ride with him and a neutral mechanic. After a few miles on the interstate he asked me please to take the first exit. Went back to the shop and he gave me his resolution -"take this truck to any wheel shop you want, get any wheels you want and we will pay the entire cost". I did, they did. It happened that the local TV station reporter was sitting next to me in the shop when the arbitrator came in that morning. Yes, bad design on wheels, no tapered lug nut holes outside or inside, flat. Dodge knew it, tried several fixes but for many years most people knew that would not work, like the history of automobiles. Mediation is a good solution with that kind of problem. You get a neutral mechanic and a somewhat neutral arbitrator and reach a settlement. In 1992 $2700 bought a great set of aluminum wheels, still on the truck and the truck is used every day we are home. Now down the way a doctor bought the same truck when I did, money was not an issue for him so he just paid out of pocket for new wheels. Was he right? Sure, his right to do so, he bought it. Was I wrong for pursuing the issue? Not in my opinion and the struggle brought resolution to my satisfaction, so did this one - my refrigerator is working great right now and I believe yours is also. Sometimes you have to struggle to get the warranty honored, plain and simple. Sometimes that might take an arbitrator or an attorney as unpleasant as that is. The only thing worse than dealing with an attorney might be another bypass surgery Wait, one more thing, filing a VA claim would be worse Done with that at 100% T&P. BTW, lots of military retirees dislike us 100% vets, talk bad stuff about us on several forums, sad. I served, got my medals, got my 3 years in and left alive. Lots of those retirees never dodged a single bullet or mortar round or got blown up by the original IED experts - Mr. Charles. Right now there seems to be an active movement to deny 100% ers access to military camps, two of those Famcamps now allow us only during the non-peak season. Yes, I will be as "vocal" as possible on that issue as well. Most of the retirees don't seem to mind when we camp next to them. It's not like there are many of us, less than 1% of all disabled vets are 100% T&P.


Enjoy your time at Yellowstone. We will likely take a trip through there on our return route from GNP this fall. Stop in and say hello?


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[SeeTheUSA]

Hey Bill ... my cage doesn’t rattle (well, not easily anyway). No problem.

My comments to the new guy were more for trying to get him some quick resolution to a frustrating problem. Once he gets the thermostat changed or whole box replaced, we can likely help him through the process of fabricating some sort of divider to put between the two compartments.

I never did have any problems with my Breeze MaxxForce 7, but with all the negative comments about it out there, I became worried. Hence the change. I’m too old for much drama in my life

We are in YNP until mid-September ... c’mon by! Would be good to meet you.

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by SeeTheUSA

My comments to the new guy were more for trying to get him some quick resolution to a frustrating problem. Once he gets the thermostat changed or whole box replaced, we can likely help him through the process of fabricating some sort of divider to put between the two compartments...

OK, I must have slept through something. Exactly what is this "divider" and why is it necessary?

[SeeTheUSA]

Originally Posted by SarahW

OK, I must have slept through something. Exactly what is this "divider" and why is it necessary?

Fair amount of discussion about this on the big iRV2 thread ... once the Norcold is able to operate adequately for the freezer part, the refrigerator part gets to the point things begin to freeze there. Some sort of divider below the large drip tray at the bottom of the freezer part helps to keep things unfrozen in the refrigerator part. The divider doesn’t need to completely seal off the two compartments, but needs to leave about an inch gap at the back. For me, I’ve been able through some experimentation to get the freezer to operate at about 3 to 6° and the fridge to operate at about 36 to 40°. The thermostat is set at about 4.2.

[SarahW]

Thanks, Warren. Wouldn't it be nice if things just WORKED the way they were supposed to, and hapless RVers didn't have to rebuild, re-engineer, re-model, revamp every dang thing??? Just wishful thinking.