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Old 05-07-2018, 11:02 PM   #1
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Question Navion 24V Questions

We are considering downsizing to a Sprinter-based C from our Class A gasser. We looked at the Navion 24V today and many questions I had for the salesman netted me a blank stare, so I thought I'd come to the experts.

First off, the specs on the 2019 model indicate that the 24V has a mascerator for the black tank. Having never owned an RV with a mascerator, I'm not sure this is something I want. If you own a Navion/View or similar with the mascerator, what do you think? Does it work well or is it just another annoyance? (We have a Vacu-flush toilet in our current motorhome and I really don't want anymore "technology" to deal with for a toilet, if you know what I mean. )

I'm also not thrilled with the compressor-type refrigerator, especially since it's a Norcold. How has your experience been with this so far?

I noticed that the tankless water heater is an option on the 24V; it comes with a 6 gallon water heater. Not sure where the water heater is located since the model we saw had the on-demand system. Is the tankless system dependable or just another expensive annoyance? I'm sure it helps the overall weight to remove the water heater.

And now for the biggie; how is your carrying capacity (CCC)? I see there is a 5k pound tow hitch... is that just for show? We have a Jeep Wrangler that may or may not be a tow vehicle, depending on how overweight the coach will be.

I have read that it's possible to add additional solar panels; has anyone done this and was it worth the money? How about an upgraded inverter?

Sorry for all the questions, but I will appreciate any info you can share. I really like the layout of the 24V and think it will be a good "downsize" vehicle for us.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:04 PM   #2
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Hello,

We have been researching and have not pulled the trigger yet so I cannot answer everything but can answer what I have read from others and seen from spec sheets...
The 2018 has a macerator as well, not sure how they work, but they do change the way you dump...compressor type fridge is in a 2018 we are looking at, the Lichtsinn dealer website has a great video on a test they did running the fridge on straight solar for a week...the CCC on a View 2018.5V profile we are looking at is #1522...we do not want to tow but feel we could tow a Jeep(maybe not with a 'G'), and lastly, you can add more solar panels and add an inverter more the 1000W provided...but you should also upgrade the batteries if you want to optimize the added wattage...my .02...

Winnaboogie
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:21 PM   #3
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Hello,

... snip ... the Lichtsinn dealer website has a great video on a test they did running the fridge on straight solar for a week.... snip ...
Winnaboogie
Don’t believe the video ... if the refrigerator is running correctly, that will never happen. They should find a rig with a properly opening refrigerator and create a new test and video. See the long thread on iRV2 regarding that quagmire.

Sarah, I installed a macerator on our previous 2012 24G ... loved it! Also had one on the subsequent Tiffin, loved it, too. I haven’t figured out how to install one on our 24D yet. Meanwhile using a SewerSolution, had it left over from our 2006 23H.

Tankless water heater is AWESOME!
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Old 05-08-2018, 01:59 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by winnaboogie View Post
Hello,

We have been researching and have not pulled the trigger yet so I cannot answer everything but can answer what I have read from others and seen from spec sheets...
The 2018 has a macerator as well, not sure how they work, but they do change the way you dump...compressor type fridge is in a 2018 we are looking at, the Lichtsinn dealer website has a great video on a test they did running the fridge on straight solar for a week...the CCC on a View 2018.5V profile we are looking at is #1522...we do not want to tow but feel we could tow a Jeep(maybe not with a 'G'), and lastly, you can add more solar panels and add an inverter more the 1000W provided...but you should also upgrade the batteries if you want to optimize the added wattage...my .02...

Winnaboogie

Thanks for your response, Winnaboogie. I have seen the Lichtsinn video on the fridge and have read the thread on iRV2 about problems with the Norcold. I'm still not exactly clear on how that refrigerator is powered and I wish I could find the online version of the operator manual. Still searching for that!

I will have to read up on the operation of the macerator. Frankly, I was hoping for an easy gravity toilet and plain ole'-fashioned dump system. The simpler, the better IMO!!

Still considering the upgraded solar and batteries. I wonder if it would be more cost-effective to do it as part of the RV order specs instead of waiting to have it done later.

Thanks again! Much appreciated. (And let me know if you pull the trigger!)
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Old 05-08-2018, 02:04 PM   #5
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Don’t believe the video ... if the refrigerator is running correctly, that will never happen. They should find a rig with a properly opening refrigerator and create a new test and video. See the long thread on iRV2 regarding that quagmire.

Sarah, I installed a macerator on our previous 2012 24G ... loved it! Also had one on the subsequent Tiffin, loved it, too. I haven’t figured out how to install one on our 24D yet. Meanwhile using a SewerSolution, had it left over from our 2006 23H.

Tankless water heater is AWESOME!
Thanks so much, Warren/Debbie. I will have to learn how to operate the macerator. I believe I'd prefer not to have it but if that's the way the RV comes we'll deal with it.

I saw the video and the complaint thread on iRV2, which prompted me to ask if others are having problems with the Norcold. I don't know why RV manufacturers don't just install a residential apartment-sized fridge and a larger inverter.

I appreciate the feedback, so if there's any other tidbits you'd care to share I'm all ears!! Thanks so much.
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Old 05-08-2018, 02:29 PM   #6
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...snip... They should find a rig with a properly opening refrigerator and create a new test and video! ...snip...
I meant to say “operating,” not opening. Sorry if that was confusing.

The way WGO installs the Norcold DE-0061, it is wired only to 12vdc. It comes with a 110vac power cord (which the Norcold magic electronic control box would convert to 12vdc to run the compressor, fan and all) but it is not plugged into anything.
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Old 05-08-2018, 02:39 PM   #7
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I meant to say “operating,” not opening. Sorry if that was confusing.

The way WGO installs the Norcold DE-0061, it is wired only to 12vdc. It comes with a 110vac power cord (which the Norcold magic electronic control box would convert to 12vdc to run the compressor, fan and all) but it is not plugged into anything.
OK. That seems... odd. Why on earth would they do that? So even on shore power the refrigerator is running on 12V???
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Old 05-08-2018, 04:00 PM   #8
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It is odd. My contact at Norcold who helped me with my replacement thought the same thing. My only guess is the WGO electrical engineers know the wimpy batteries could not keep up with running the refrigerator on the inverter.

Keep in mind I have virtually no knowledge about all of this ... just a guess. The way WGO sets it all up is simply runs on 12vdc. The 110vac cord is just rolled up, attached to nothing, and zip-tied to the back of the Norcold.
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Old 05-08-2018, 04:47 PM   #9
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I'm certainly no authority on electrical systems, but it seems to me that anything that can be run on 12V should easily run on shore power or an inverter for that matter. I need to get my hands on the operator manual for that fridge. (Thanks for the manual link. )

Would you happen to know if the macerator on the Navion is on the toilet or is "downstream" for emptying the tank? I'm not clear on exactly why the V has one and other models do not.

It would be very helpful (and unusual) if the salespeople could actually answer my questions, but sadly they are less informed than I am. :(
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Old 05-08-2018, 07:46 PM   #10
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I have a 2017 24V View. I have 300 watts of solar. The new one come with 200 watts with room to add a third panel. I up-grader to two 150 amp/hr batteries for the cabin. Much better solar power storage than the stock batteries. Another needed modification is a Trik-L-Strat to keep the engine battery charged. All of these items can be worked into a deal since you have not bought it yet. I would not worry about the refrig with extra solar. My overal suggestion is go for it and enjoy. I put 7,000 miles on mine in the last three weeks and enjoyed every mile.
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Old 05-08-2018, 08:51 PM   #11
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I have a 2017 24V View. I have 300 watts of solar. The new one come with 200 watts with room to add a third panel. I up-grader to two 150 amp/hr batteries for the cabin. Much better solar power storage than the stock batteries. Another needed modification is a Trik-L-Strat to keep the engine battery charged. All of these items can be worked into a deal since you have not bought it yet. I would not worry about the refrig with extra solar. My overal suggestion is go for it and enjoy. I put 7,000 miles on mine in the last three weeks and enjoyed every mile.
Thanks for the info! Does your 24V have the macerator? I'm curious about how that works.
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:25 PM   #12
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G'day Sara,

WBGO's website does not have 2019 operator manuals for Views/Navions at this time...so who knows? I'd guess it is similar to earlier models unless they have relocated the tanks. Up to 2018, the waste system uses a "macerator" type pump only to empty the gray water tank which is behind the axle. The black tank is mid-ship ahead of the axle with the 4" blade valve & drain forward of the tank (about in the middle of the RV). Black tank relies on the time tested gravity flow. The pump is astern of the gray tank and pulls waste out of the rear of the tank and pushes it via a 1" line forward and around the black tank. The 1" line connects to the 4" waste line just ahead of the blade valve.

Like always, hook up your septic hose & pull the blade valve to empty the black tank. Then, open the gray tank blade valve below the "water closet" & hit the switch in the closet to activate the pump. Gray waste dumps out the 4" like always. The pump is quite powerful and can eject water about 5' out from the side of the RV. Takes a bit longer to empty but is neater and cleaner.
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:15 AM   #13
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G'day Sara,

WBGO's website does not have 2019 operator manuals for Views/Navions at this time...so who knows? I'd guess it is similar to earlier models unless they have relocated the tanks. Up to 2018, the waste system uses a "macerator" type pump only to empty the gray water tank which is behind the axle. The black tank is mid-ship ahead of the axle with the 4" blade valve & drain forward of the tank (about in the middle of the RV). Black tank relies on the time tested gravity flow. The pump is astern of the gray tank and pulls waste out of the rear of the tank and pushes it via a 1" line forward and around the black tank. The 1" line connects to the 4" waste line just ahead of the blade valve.

Like always, hook up your septic hose & pull the blade valve to empty the black tank. Then, open the gray tank blade valve below the "water closet" & hit the switch in the closet to activate the pump. Gray waste dumps out the 4" like always. The pump is quite powerful and can eject water about 5' out from the side of the RV. Takes a bit longer to empty but is neater and cleaner.

Thanks so much for this explanation and info. The 2019 probably operates the same way. I had "assumed" the macerator was on the toilet/black tank since what I know about a macerator is that it pulverizes solids into a slurry... which didn't make sense for gray water. I suppose tank location makes it necessary to pump, but I wish the 24V had the simple gravity system.

The vacu-flush toilet in our Bounder is a pump system and it has always been an annoyance. It's noisy and I spend a lot of time worrying about a failure. (I like to worry about things in advance. )
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:57 AM   #14
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Thanks so much for this explanation and info. The 2019 probably operates the same way. I had "assumed" the macerator was on the toilet/black tank since what I know about a macerator is that it pulverizes solids into a slurry... which didn't make sense for gray water. I suppose tank location makes it necessary to pump, but I wish the 24V had the simple gravity system.

The vacu-flush toilet in our Bounder is a pump system and it has always been an annoyance. It's noisy and I spend a lot of time worrying about a failure. (I like to worry about things in advance. )
Exactly! Location. Location. Location! The pumping gray water maintains a single point dump solution. Without it, you would have to move and fit the 4" pipe or jigger a "Y" connection to a single ground dump port. And maybe carry more hose. Or, shuttle the RV back and forth. Pumping sounds complicated but isn't really a big deal. Now pumping "poo" might be a bigger deal....

Thanks for the tip on the vacuum-flush. Just what you need to hear in the middle of the night!!!!!

We've always had 6 gallon, dual fuel, Subueban type water heaters. Efficient, tad more gallons of water, reliable & easy to maintain. We are "Brats"! As Brats you learn from day one to CONSERVE water....and other resources .... because you never know how long you will be in the field or when the next resupply (ain't) coming. So it's about HOW you use the water .... Not about having 'instant' hot or running out of hot! Hell's Bells! We have a 60 gallon WH with recirculation in the "casa" and even with that you have to wait for warm water to heat up.

So, in a Crow's opine, those fancy instant WHs are as yet to be proven technology and (from forums) unreliable, over complicated technology & $$$$. Simple is better. Tank types have been around since the first RVs. There's a reason.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:42 AM   #15
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Exactly! Location. Location. Location! The pumping gray water maintains a single point dump solution. Without it, you would have to move and fit the 4" pipe or jigger a "Y" connection to a single ground dump port. And maybe carry more hose. Or, shuttle the RV back and forth. Pumping sounds complicated but isn't really a big deal. Now pumping "poo" might be a bigger deal....

Thanks for the tip on the vacuum-flush. Just what you need to hear in the middle of the night!!!!!

We've always had 6 gallon, dual fuel, Subueban type water heaters. Efficient, tad more gallons of water, reliable & easy to maintain. We are "Brats"! As Brats you learn from day one to CONSERVE water....and other resources .... because you never know how long you will be in the field or when the next resupply (ain't) coming. So it's about HOW you use the water .... Not about having 'instant' hot or running out of hot! Hell's Bells! We have a 60 gallon WH with recirculation in the "casa" and even with that you have to wait for warm water to heat up.

So, in a Crow's opine, those fancy instant WHs are as yet to be proven technology and (from forums) unreliable, over complicated technology & $$$$. Simple is better. Tank types have been around since the first RVs. There's a reason.
I'd prefer to do without any pumping of waste, but I can understand why it's necessary. I hope that Winnebago has installed the pump/macerator in a convenient place for servicing or repair. I may need to hunt the plumbing diagrams for the 24V.

I agree that the tank type water heaters are proven; we have not had any problem with our tank water heater whatsoever. I wonder where the water heater is located in the 24V since the model we saw had the tankless installed? I hate to lose any precious storage but everything's a trade-off with an RV!

I'm also trying to wrap my brain around the fact that Winnebago chose to not plug the Norcold compressor fridge into 110 power and only operate on 12V. Seems to me the optimal operation when plugged into shore power or genny would be 110, but what do I know? I'm going to call and inquire about that.

I see that you are a fellow Texan; we live in the Houston metro area. We traveled across town to Camping World (cringe) to get a look at the 24V. Probably would not buy from them unless the deal is irresistible (and we all know the chances of that, lol.)

Thank you again for your input; I appreciate it greatly.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:59 AM   #16
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Sarah,

Regarding the water heater, I would agree the more traditional style like what was on our three former motorhomes is certainly functional. With our new 24D View we had no choice. The Truma Tankless wasn’t an option and I was (as typical) skeptical about its performance. That was back in October last year. So in May of this year I can say without reservation it is a great improvement. It is advertised as providing instant hot water ... it does exactly that.

Perhaps that’s not a really important feature, those of us with a “regular” heater are accustomed to carefully pointing the shower head away from ourselves when we resume water flow. Takes a bit of water flow to accomplish that every time, of course. Not so with the Truma. Instant. Really. So if you’re into conserving water, either in the shower or the bathroom sink or the kitchen sink, the Truma gives you hot water right away.

I’ve also had homes with recirculating pumps, but they simply shortened the amount of time to actually get hot water. The Truma just gives you hot water. There is a so-called “eco” setting on the Truma that disables that feature if you so choose. You could then go back to the old way of turning on the hot water and waiting for it to get hot. We definitely don’t use that setting when it’s shower time.

As info, the Truma looks to take up about the same space as a 6-gallon tank style heater. Perhaps slightly less.

By the way, we purchased our 2012 24G at Camping World in Katy back in March of 2012. Got a better deal there than any of the dealers in and around our home in the DFW area.

YMMV
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Old 05-09-2018, 12:50 PM   #17
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Sarah,

Regarding the water heater, I would agree the more traditional style like what was on our three former motorhomes is certainly functional. With our new 24D View we had no choice. The Truma Tankless wasn’t an option and I was (as typical) skeptical about its performance. That was back in October last year. So in May of this year I can say without reservation it is a great improvement. It is advertised as providing instant hot water ... it does exactly that.

Perhaps that’s not a really important feature, those of us with a “regular” heater are accustomed to carefully pointing the shower head away from ourselves when we resume water flow. Takes a bit of water flow to accomplish that every time, of course. Not so with the Truma. Instant. Really. So if you’re into conserving water, either in the shower or the bathroom sink or the kitchen sink, the Truma gives you hot water right away.

I’ve also had homes with recirculating pumps, but they simply shortened the amount of time to actually get hot water. The Truma just gives you hot water. There is a so-called “eco” setting on the Truma that disables that feature if you so choose. You could then go back to the old way of turning on the hot water and waiting for it to get hot. We definitely don’t use that setting when it’s shower time.

As info, the Truma looks to take up about the same space as a 6-gallon tank style heater. Perhaps slightly less.

By the way, we purchased our 2012 24G at Camping World in Katy back in March of 2012. Got a better deal there than any of the dealers in and around our home in the DFW area.

YMMV
Thanks, Warren (I assume this is Warren and not Debbie?). If the instant hot water was standard equipment on the 24V it certainly would not be a deal-breaker. But since it is an option on the model, I'm trying to decide whether it would be worth the money as an upgrade. My tendency is to keep things as simple as possible because I am well aware of RV-associated repair costs!! I didn't see any tank or anything associated with the tankless system except the "control panel" or whatever it's called.

I am familiar with the wait time and wasted water for the shower to come to temp. I keep a large plastic pitcher in the shower to catch the flow until it warms up! Then I can use that water to flush or whatever when we are boondocking. I will have to learn how to manage wastewater tank capacity, too. Our Bounder has generous tanks but even those require management when camped without hookups.

I have an aversion to all things Camping World, but I am not adverse to saving money. So if they can strike the best deal then a Camping World customer I shall be. I'm not foolish enough to think that there will be any significant after-purchase service. We have been through that with Holiday World of Houston and soon learned that we have to fix things ourselves to keep blood pressure in check.

One final concern I have is the Sprinter Chassis and Mercedes. I need to find out if owners have frustration with finding service centers that will handle RVs. After buying our gasser, it was unbelievable to me that in the Houston metro area, not a single Ford dealer (commercial trucks or car dealerships) will touch an RV. Luckily my husband can change oil, lube, etc. and we have never needed mechanical repairs on the engine.
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:06 PM   #18
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Sarah, if you open the port side, last atch (24G) you will find the water closet (valves, fill port, drains, & outside shower) on the left. To the right is the electrical closet (plug for generator, shore cable, cable tv connector, etc.)

If you look under the water bay, there's a gray pipe & gray blade valve for the gray water tank to the left. Pipe goes under and comes up behind the bays about in the middle. You might need a flashlight to see the pump. It is located behind the bays toward the upper half. Not impossible to get to ... Like all RVs...just a pain.

The good news is that WBGO had the foresight (by design, accident or luck) to put a clean out in the pipe and place the pump high up in the system so it will most likely drain out back to the pipe & tank after use.

Not using the 110V option and relying only on solar/batteries on the fridge is nutz. I'm into redundancy and backups. Especially with "mission critical" assets like the fridge/freezer, charging/starting options, redundant genny fuel supplies.

Why any one would opt for a single power source compressor fridge in a Class C/B is beyond my imagination. Ammonia cycle multi-fuel fridges have no moving parts. Economical and efficient. The design is over 100 years old and used globally. Besides...it was perfected by A. Einstein & L. Szilard (Yes...those guys...the atomic physicists!) who were smarted than average bears).
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Old 05-09-2018, 05:20 PM   #19
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One good thing about the Norcold compressor driven refrigerator, now that our defective first one has been replaced with a properly performing one, is great temperatures! And SAFE temperatures for food storage.

Right now, with the interior of our View at 87°, the freezer is -3° and the refrigerator is 38°. Even the FDA likes those temps. BTW, we aren’t in our View right now.

We never could get ice cream adequately frozen in our first three motorhomes.

Regarding the power issue, we never let our batteries get very low anyway. And they are properly charged several different ways .... solar, shore power and engine alternator. Good to go

Glad to see WGO adopting new technologies ... usually. Like other things in life, there’s a learning curve, however. And we like to learn. Already learned how to plug in the 110v power cord.
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Old 05-09-2018, 06:12 PM   #20
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My 2017 View 24v has a pump on the gray water tank. Only because it can not gravity flow into the three inch main drain. It is just a pump but not really a maserator. I gravity drop the black tank, then pump the gray tank, then hook up fresh water to the flush line to do a final rinse.
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