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Old 08-20-2020, 02:43 PM   #1
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Ford diesel issue

I think we were very lucky.

We just returned from a trip from the Phoenix area to Port Aransas in Texas and, after emptying the RV, I drove it to the storage area. On that drive I noticed the check engine light and made an appointment to bring it in to the Ford dealer for service. I actually thought it might be that someone forgot to reset the "change oil" reminder the last time I had the oil changed and that it was nothing serious, but that was wrong. The RV is a little less than 2 years old and has about 26,000 miles so the engine and drivetrain are still under warranty and I brought it to the Ford place yesterday.

Today I was told that there is an issue with the engine computer and the DEF system not talking to each other properly. The service guy was not very clear on exactly what that issue is, and perhaps he does not know anything more than he told me, but he said that they called Ford with the error code (which he did not give to me) and was told about the problem. He does not know how long it will take the Ford "experts" to figure out what needs to be done, what parts need to be replaced nor how long it will take to get the parts, but estimates "a couple of weeks".

I did some searching online and found some threads about this on some other forums dating from 2017 so perhaps someone actually knows what this is, but those threads indicated that this is an ongoing issue with the Ford diesel and I wanted to post about it to let people know, just in case someone is getting ready to buy. I don't know that this will be a difficult issue to solve, given that it may not be a new issue, but I had not heard anything about it before.

I say we are lucky because this happened after our trip and when we were home. I shudder to think about this happening in the middle of some rural area where we might be stranded for "a couple of weeks" waiting to get it fixed.
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Old 08-20-2020, 02:55 PM   #2
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Glad you made it home, OK.
Hard to believe the dealer couldn't just plug in the OBD II computer and "volia" we have the answers. That they had to immediately escalate it to someplace else for analysis.
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:08 PM   #3
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Wow you could have been stranded for quite a while. I suspect the dealer's tech hadn't seen that code before and wanted to discuss it with the Ford pros first.

Just to be clear to everyone, this is the Ford 3.2 liter diesel used on the Winnie Fuse. I am no expert on diesel emission add on systems like DEF and DPF but these sorts of problems are somewhat common on the Mercedes Sprinter 3.0 liter diesel used on the Winnie View. This is the first reported incident of a problem with the Ford engine used in the Fuse I have seen.

Keep us posted on the outcome.

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Old 08-20-2020, 04:28 PM   #4
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Maybe the Ford 3.2L diesel DEF problems are usually fatal, and that's why no one posts up anything about them?

Its probably because they aren't as widely used as a motorhome chassis as the Sprinters, as they aren't quite as robust. Nor have they been around as long, entering the market in 2015, with the MB diesels being around twice as long, since SCR/DPF/DEF systems were mandated.
They certainly aren't without their share of all of the small diesel engine SCR/DPF/DEF problems.

https://www.google.com/search?client...4dUDCAs&uact=5

https://www.google.com/search?client...bu3CuEQ4dUDCAs

https://www.google.com/search?client...sclient=psy-ab

https://www.google.com/search?client...dijD94Q4dUDCAs
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Old 08-20-2020, 04:44 PM   #5
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Just to be clear to everyone, this is the Ford 3.2 liter diesel used on the Winnie Fuse.
Yes. That is right.

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Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
I am no expert on diesel emission add on systems like DEF and DPF but these sorts of problems are somewhat common on the Mercedes Sprinter 3.0 liter diesel used on the Winnie View. This is the first reported incident of a problem with the Ford engine used in the Fuse I have seen.
My Google search for this problem turned up other instances, but I don't know if it is common with the Ford. I am hoping that if this has been seen before, then perhaps it will not take very long to fix. We have a tentative trip scheduled for September to either Utah or Texas and I would like to be able to take it.

One thing that does concern me is the cost of the fix. This particular case should be covered under warranty but if this problem shows up in another 25,000 miles it will be out of warranty.

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Keep us posted on the outcome.
Will do.
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Old 08-20-2020, 04:58 PM   #6
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Maybe the Ford 3.2L diesel DEF problems are usually fatal, and that's why no one posts up anything about them?
Fatal? I wonder what they would do if the problem can't be fixed ... Somehow I don't think they will end up offering me a new Fuse or a full refund ... . Although there is a scheduled RV show in Scottsdale that starts tomorrow, and that is only about a 30 minute drive for me.

I have actually thought about the time and cost of fixing it, and have begun to wonder if perhaps a gasser might have been a safer move. Unfortunately none of the Winnebago Class C RVs are gassers, and I am not sure that I would want a MB chassis, given the issue with B20.

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Its probably because they aren't as widely used as a motorhome chassis as the Sprinters, as they aren't quite as robust. Nor have they been around as long, entering the market in 2015, with the MB diesels being around twice as long, since SCR/DPF/DEF systems were mandated.
Not as robust? In what sense?

All in all I have been pleased to have the Ford rather than the MB chassis for a number of reasons, although the local Ford dealer here says that they do oil changes for the MB chassis as well as the Ford chassis. If I had known that it would have eased some of my concerns about the MB chassis.

We had not expected to have to leave the RV at the dealership for more than a couple of hours so when my wife found out that they would have to keep it for longer we went to empty out some of the things she did not want to leave in it and driving around on the service lot I saw a ton of RVs there for service. Interestingly enough this local Ford dealer is where LaMesa RV sends its RVs for serious engine work even though the RV dealer is essentially right next door to another Ford dealer. Since it is about 20 miles from the RV place I assume that this Ford dealer is more knowledgeable about RV. Or, alternately, it is less expensive.

Oh. That is probably what you meant by robust.
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Old 08-20-2020, 05:30 PM   #7
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Fatal? I wonder what they would do if the problem can't be fixed ... Somehow I don't think they will end up offering me a new Fuse or a full refund ... . Although there is a scheduled RV show in Scottsdale that starts tomorrow, and that is only about a 30 minute drive for me.

I have actually thought about the time and cost of fixing it, and have begun to wonder if perhaps a gasser might have been a safer move. Unfortunately none of the Winnebago Class C RVs are gassers, and I am not sure that I would want a MB chassis, given the issue with B20.



Not as robust? In what sense?

All in all I have been pleased to have the Ford rather than the MB chassis for a number of reasons, although the local Ford dealer here says that they do oil changes for the MB chassis as well as the Ford chassis. If I had known that it would have eased some of my concerns about the MB chassis.

We had not expected to have to leave the RV at the dealership for more than a couple of hours so when my wife found out that they would have to keep it for longer we went to empty out some of the things she did not want to leave in it and driving around on the service lot I saw a ton of RVs there for service. Interestingly enough this local Ford dealer is where LaMesa RV sends its RVs for serious engine work even though the RV dealer is essentially right next door to another Ford dealer. Since it is about 20 miles from the RV place I assume that this Ford dealer is more knowledgeable about RV. Or, alternately, it is less expensive.



Oh. That is probably what you meant by robust.
Gotta have a sense of humor, if you own an RV, eh?
I was surprised that some on here haven't ever heard or seen any DEF issues with the Ford versus the MB small SCR/DEF diesels. They're all fallible and have their own little quirks.
By robust, I meant that the GVWR of the Ford Transit 350 cab chassis is slightly less than the MB Sprinter 3500. It can't hold quite as much "stuff" that the upfitters add to them to make them into Fuses and Navions. Not meant as a criticism, just a comparison of physical capacity stats.
So, you're heading to Utah or Texas? If you know your possible routes, might be worth mapping the Ford Transit chassis capable service locations along them, just in case. Ford Truck Centers should be the most capable places, but you never know. Apparently?
One of the criticsims that always comes up about MB Sprinters, during the MB versus Ford chassis wars threads, is the lack of capable service centers for the Mercedes chassis across North America. I always counter with "well not every corner Ford dealer can handle their light/medium/heavy truck products either", but I'm sure the anti-MB/pro-Ford crowd just laughs and dismisses it as "fake news".
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Old 08-21-2020, 08:31 AM   #8
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By robust, I meant that the GVWR of the Ford Transit 350 cab chassis is slightly less than the MB Sprinter 3500.
Yes, I understand.

As it turns out we ended up buying a new car about the same time we bought our new RV and I wanted to make sure we could tow it. Because we bought the Fuse with the Ford chassis we ended up having to get something really light and since my wife does not do standard transmissions it had to be an automatic. Given the weight restrictions we ended up with a Honda Fit and a tow dolly. Had we bought the MB chassis we probably would have gotten a Jeep of some kind that could be flat towed.

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So, you're heading to Utah or Texas? If you know your possible routes, might be worth mapping the Ford Transit chassis capable service locations along them, just in case. Ford Truck Centers should be the most capable places, but you never know.
I did that this morning and there are few of those in the more rural areas. I looked at the route we take to Bryce Canyon National Park and the only Ford Transit service centers along the way are in Phoenix and the closest to Bryce Canyon is in Salt Lake City.

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One of the criticsims that always comes up about MB Sprinters, during the MB versus Ford chassis wars threads, is the lack of capable service centers for the Mercedes chassis across North America. I always counter with "well not every corner Ford dealer can handle their light/medium/heavy truck products either", but I'm sure the anti-MB/pro-Ford crowd just laughs and dismisses it as "fake news".
I am sure you are right, but I also think there are probably more Ford dealerships that can handle diesels than MB dealerships that can handle them. I don't know about the particular diesels in question as I guess the Ford diesel is not a common engine for Ford. I do like the fuel economy but I begin to see the advantage of the gassers. Unfortunately I don't think WBO makes gasser Class C RVs.
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Old 08-21-2020, 08:42 AM   #9
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One of my concerns about diesel RVs has been the DEF getting old, which it does, and that can throw warning codes. An RV should use a fair amount of DEF given the load it is carrying, but I'd still be reluctant to fill the tank and instead only put in what you think you'll use in the next 4-5 months if not doing a lot of travelling. Also, buy your DEF at high volume locations, like Costco.
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Old 08-21-2020, 10:41 AM   #10
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One of my concerns about diesel RVs has been the DEF getting old, which it does, and that can throw warning codes. An RV should use a fair amount of DEF given the load it is carrying, but I'd still be reluctant to fill the tank and instead only put in what you think you'll use in the next 4-5 months if not doing a lot of travelling. Also, buy your DEF at high volume locations, like Costco.
We do fill our DEF tank when it is low, but since we drive about 12,000 miles a year we go through perhaps 3 refills during that period. I assume the DEF does not get too old, or at least the old DEF is diluted enough by the new DEF to not be an issue.

We buy DEF from Walmart (where it flies off the shelves) or Home Depot, but I also have the Ford dealer fill it when we are in for an oil change. I did not know that Costco even sold DEF since I have never gone into the auto/truck section of the store. I will have to check that out the next time we are there.
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:28 AM   #11
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We do fill our DEF tank when it is low, but since we drive about 12,000 miles a year we go through perhaps 3 refills during that period. I assume the DEF does not get too old, or at least the old DEF is diluted enough by the new DEF to not be an issue.

We buy DEF from Walmart (where it flies off the shelves) or Home Depot, but I also have the Ford dealer fill it when we are in for an oil change. I did not know that Costco even sold DEF since I have never gone into the auto/truck section of the store. I will have to check that out the next time we are there.
Filling it three times a year is probably more than sufficient, but if it becomes a concern you could just put in 2.5 gallons at a time (or whatever half a tank is on a motorhome).

Walmart would probably be another good place for DEF, but they have multiple brands which might slow the turnover of whatever brand you happen to grab. I don't think I would trust either HD or the dealer to have fresh DEF. I know you can't trust many dealers for fresh batteries.
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:50 AM   #12
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Filling it three times a year is probably more than sufficient, but if it becomes a concern you could just put in 2.5 gallons at a time (or whatever half a tank is on a motorhome).

Walmart would probably be another good place for DEF, but they have multiple brands which might slow the turnover of whatever brand you happen to grab. I don't think I would trust either HD or the dealer to have fresh DEF. I know you can't trust many dealers for fresh batteries.
When I fill the tank myself I buy a 2.5 gallon container, usually from our local Walmart and the stuff moves so fast there that I don't have to worry about old DEF. I stopped once at HomeDepot because we were low and I did not expect to be able to get any DEF along our route once we left the area we were in. I saw a HD on the road and stopped on the off chance that they would have it, and they did.

One thing that does worry me about Walmart is that while the DEF where we live would probably be fresh I am unsure about whether or not that would be true in the middle of nowhere. If we stop at a Walmart in some rural area I could easily believe that the DEF might be out of date, and once when we were driving through rural Nevada and stopped to get DEF at a service station the DEF was so old that I would not buy it.

As for the dealer, perhaps you are right. In our 26,000 miles we have had the local dealer fill our DEF only twice, but the last time was right before our trip Makes me wonder if they have old DEF and if that might be the reason for this issue. Too late to do anything about it now, but I will keep it in mind if we ever get our RV back from the Ford place.
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Old 08-21-2020, 01:12 PM   #13
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One thing that does worry me about Walmart is that while the DEF where we live would probably be fresh I am unsure about whether or not that would be true in the middle of nowhere.
I have no idea, but it might be fresher out there--more diesel pickup trucks!
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:00 PM   #14
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DEF and diesel from truck stops is usually good (fresh) considering the amounts they go through. I only use truck stop bulk DEF. 30,000+ miles no problems.

2 things to maybe watch out for (caveat: both are from the internet, so they must be true)...
When buying DEF from the big box retailers like Walmart, I've read stories about people buying DEF, filling their tanks, and then filling the empty containers with tap water and returning them for a refund. Always check the seals on the off the shelf stuff before you dump it into your DEF tank.
The second is, I've seen some recommendations that you should try to keep the DEF tank full as much as possible. Reason one is running out/low, will get you a "low DEF" (or worse) warning, and will always set unnecessary codes in the ECU. Reason two is sensors inside the tank may dry out and that may cause other problems, including false readings of actual tank capacity which might trigger low DEF codes, and so on.
Personally, I keep my tank full whenever possible, and including when it's sitting on the driveway idle, and I have had no problems with "old" DEF. If it was going to sit idle for a few years, I might think differently, but for now, age isn't a problem. Except mine.
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:21 PM   #15
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Yes, I understand.

As it turns out we ended up buying a new car about the same time we bought our new RV and I wanted to make sure we could tow it. Because we bought the Fuse with the Ford chassis we ended up having to get something really light and since my wife does not do standard transmissions it had to be an automatic. Given the weight restrictions we ended up with a Honda Fit and a tow dolly. Had we bought the MB chassis we probably would have gotten a Jeep of some kind that could be flat towed.



I did that this morning and there are few of those in the more rural areas. I looked at the route we take to Bryce Canyon National Park and the only Ford Transit service centers along the way are in Phoenix and the closest to Bryce Canyon is in Salt Lake City.



I am sure you are right, but I also think there are probably more Ford dealerships that can handle diesels than MB dealerships that can handle them. I don't know about the particular diesels in question as I guess the Ford diesel is not a common engine for Ford. I do like the fuel economy but I begin to see the advantage of the gassers. Unfortunately I don't think WBO makes gasser Class C RVs.
Bryce Canyon NP was our favorite destination for the first 5 or so years of RV travel. We stayed there many times from March through November, often in the snow, for $18/night. It was a magical place. We liked the trails and did most of them early on. There wasn't really a bad campsite (but some of the roads were) in the North Campground. We've stayed in #4 twice, and some of the best ones in the B loop, but #39 was always our favorite, as it was like a 2 storey campsite. Never a bad night's sleep there, either.
Then they started the "improvements" a few years ago, and almost doubled the rates for an unserviced site, so we don't go there as often any more. Plus the place became a little more "touristy" over the years, and crowded with a lot of international visitors (I don't count us, as we're almost Americans). Last time we were there, they had almost completed the asphalt trail that runs parallel to the park roadway. Does it go into town yet?
We liked the cowboy pot roast, or the buffet, at Ruby's Inn, but even that place appears to be run by a different bunch now, and it's just not the same.
There was a nice old gentleman in the gift shop that lived in Tropic, and said that the pizza joint down there was run by his family. We've dined there a few times, just for a change of pace from Ruby's.
I wish they'd open the border so we could head back out there. Every so often, I feel a need for a Bryce Canyon NP fix, and especially now, after all the chaos of the last 8 months.
Enjoy your trip if you do go there.
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:29 PM   #16
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DEF and diesel from truck stops is usually good (fresh) considering the amounts they go through. I only use truck stop bulk DEF. 30,000+ miles no problems. :
If you can do that it would be the best method, because it would be the cheapest and likely the freshest. But not all vehicles have the proper magnets inside their DEF inlets for the pump to function, and I've yet to find an adapter that works well.
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:13 PM   #17
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But not all vehicles have the proper magnets inside their DEF inlets for the pump to function, and I've yet to find an adapter that works well.
??? Magnets? Adapter? Huh?
Please explain?
I've used the truck lanes (I have to prepay, but that's a minor inconvenience) at many truck stops all over Canada and the US to get DEF, and my Sprinter based Navion works every time. Everywhere.
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:30 PM   #18
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??? Magnets? Adapter? Huh?
Please explain?
I've used the truck lanes (I have to prepay, but that's a minor inconvenience) at many truck stops all over Canada and the US to get DEF, and my Sprinter based Navion works every time. Everywhere.
Yours is equipped properly with magnets. Not all vehicles are. My 2019 Chevy truck is not.

This is an example of an adaptor for vehicles not properly equipped, but as mentioned, they're problematic.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:54 PM   #19
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??? Magnets? Adapter? Huh?
Please explain? .
The second to last paragraph of this piece also explains it. It's possible that you've used systems that don't have the magnet system. It may be a regional thing--not sure.

https://www.rvtechmag.com/tech/90_def.php

I think the purpose it to prevent people from accidentally pumping DEF into their diesel tanks.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:46 PM   #20
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The second to last paragraph of this piece also explains it. It's possible that you've used systems that don't have the magnet system. It may be a regional thing--not sure.

https://www.rvtechmag.com/tech/90_def.php

I think the purpose it to prevent people from accidentally pumping DEF into their diesel tanks.
I agree about the idiot proofing aspect, that section of the article is all about "don't mix DEF and fuel". The DEF nozzles I've used aren't equipped with anything magnetic, nor is my DEF fill pipe magnetic that I'm aware.
Your linked article states
"Some bulk DEF pumps have a magnetic switch located in the nozzle."
Some, not all, and not any that I've used as far as I know.
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