DEF questions - 2018 Fuse

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by TN VIEWer

On the View the steering wheel has arrows that display different info one is a vertical tube with wind symbols the tube is filled in from bottom to top indicating how full the DEF is

I am sorry but I am not clear about what you are saying here.

> the steering wheel has arrows that display different info

Do you mean the 4 arrows that are used to control the dash display? Or something else?

> one is a vertical tube with wind symbols

Is this a display on the dash cluster? Or on the LCD display? On the Fuse the LCD display contains 3 sections - Trip 1, Trip 2 and Info. Is the display under one of these? Because I have not seen anything like that on my Fuse dash. Perhaps I need to look more closely?

[CoastalEd]

Mike, the Winnebago View is on a Sprinter Chassis. It has no relevance to Fuse questions.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

Mike, the Winnebago View is on a Sprinter Chassis. It has no relevance to Fuse questions.

Ah. yes, the Fuse is on the Ford Transit chassis, so the instrument cluster information would be completely different than what is on the Sprinter chassis. Perhaps I will just have to live with OK and not OK. Thanks for pointing that out and now I will not have to spend 20 minutes looking for the DEF display on the dash.

Still, I was concerned enough about where to find Mercedes shops to fix any Mercedes diesel/transmission issues that I am glad we settled on the Fuse with the Ford engine. My local Ford dealer says that he can do the normal service on the RV and that will be considerably faster and less expensive than the RV dealer's service and I am far less worried about breaking down in the middle of nowhere (which is a fair description of much of the area we travel through with our RV).

[dp226]

The best way to handle the DEF situation is look at the info portion of the instrument display cluster in the mornings while you are traveling. It will tell you when it is at 1/2 full. When you get that message then stop by Walmart and pick up a 2.5gal bottle of def and put it in. Will bring it back to full. That is what I do.

Here is a post I wrote about the DEF. The conFUSEd RVer: Adding Some DEF to the Fuse


Don
http://confisedrv.com

[AlanO]

Just a thought, under optimal conditions DEF has a 1 year shelf life. Make very sure to check the date code before you buy
I bought a 2.5 gal jug that was already past the one year mark. I sent it back for a current one. Expired DEF can be nothing but trouble for your diesel.

[Wayne M]

What about the age of the DEF in the RV DEF tank?

[luvlabs]

If you filled up the tank and then never use the coach, never started the engine, and let it sit for a couple of years, then I'd be worried. But then again, you'd be worried about what's in the fuel tank, cooling system and so on. I guess it would be drain and refill time.

But this doesn't happen to most of us and, since you are always adding fresh DEF, it probably doesn't matter in the least.

[Old Crows]

I was chided by the MB advisor about 'topping off the DEF' rather than waiting for the 'add' light. ...so you get fresh DEF in the tank.... Frankly, I don't yet agree that it makes a difference, topping or filling. Our DEF failure (complete system from the heater to the converters) wasn't due to 'bad' DEF, IMHO. It was due to either poor QA/QC on DEF system components OR parts that were not well designed from the git go. I'll note that the sensors and parts now carry revised version numbers indicating that there has been several 'upgrades' to these components. I suspect due to problems with the original designs or QA/QC. Meanwhile, DEF is DEF is DEF. It is not going to go bad except in rare circumstances.



Or problem is there are no controlled, double blind, peer reviewed studies to show us how DEF really ages (or not) in the DEF tank. And, under what conditions is it affected in the 'real world' and not on the 'shelf or in storage'. Not a single study that I'm aware of... So, we're just guessing.



Since we're guessing, we'd probably point out the likely hood of DEF contamination or degradation. It's a 'usual suspect' to borrow from Casablanca. It ain't that simple. Clorox, H2O2, 409, NH3, acetic acid, vinegar and other common use chemistry in your home doesn't degrade to pumpkins just sitting under the sink or in the cubby. Gas, kero and diesel doesn't waste in cans and tanks appreciably. So, why should DEF be any different?

[NYBobbo]

this is a great resource about DEF


https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/si...es/MB10033.pdf




taken from the above paper:


Q. Are there special storage requirements for DEF?
A. DEF should be stored in a cool, dry, well
-ventilated area, out of direct sunlight.
While the optimum storage temperature is up to 77 deg F (25 deg C), temporary exposure to higher temperatures has little to no impact on the quality of DEF.


Q. What is the shelf life of DEF?
A. The shelf life of DEF is a function of ambient storage temperature. DEF will degrade over time depending on temperature and exposure to sun light. Expectations for shelf life as defined by ISO Spec 22241-3 are the minimum expectations for shelf life when stored at constant temperatures. If stored between 10 and90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year. If the maximum temperature does not exceed approximately 75 deg F for an extended period of time, the shelf life will be two years.

[AlanO]

Sorry but I have to disagree about the degrading of DEF and a few others
DEF crystallizes with time that has caused some diesel owners huge headache and financial expenses
Check out YouTube and see for yourself
Ever stick your nose in an old gas can?...that should tell you about degrading gas!

[CoastalEd]

Personally, I would give far more credence to facts from Cummins than something on YouTube......

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by luvlabs

If you filled up the tank and then never use the coach, never started the engine, and let it sit for a couple of years, then I'd be worried. But then again, you'd be worried about what's in the fuel tank, cooling system and so on. I guess it would be drain and refill time.

But this doesn't happen to most of us and, since you are always adding fresh DEF, it probably doesn't matter in the least.

I wonder.

I just bought my Fuse but wanted to know when it was manufactured so I looked at the date the chassis was built, and that turned out to be 9 months ago. That means that the engine, oil and, yes, the DEF, have been sitting in that engine for 9 months, largely unused and getting older. It does seem to me that perhaps changing the oil and filter is in order and, perhaps, changing the DEF as well.

It only has a 1 year shelf life and it has been in that reservoir for 9 months already. I suppose I will drive it enough in the next 3 months to use that DEF fluid up but I think we need to consider the time before we buy a new RV as well as how long we have owned it.

[CoastalEd]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I wonder.

I just bought my Fuse but wanted to know when it was manufactured so I looked at the date the chassis was built, and that turned out to be 9 months ago. That means that the engine, oil and, yes, the DEF, have been sitting in that engine for 9 months, largely unused and getting older. It does seem to me that perhaps changing the oil and filter is in order and, perhaps, changing the DEF as well.

It only has a 1 year shelf life and it has been in that reservoir for 9 months already. I suppose I will drive it enough in the next 3 months to use that DEF fluid up but I think we need to consider the time before we buy a new RV as well as how long we have owned it.

I have been actively participating in RV forums for many years, some forums with many thousands of members, and I do not ever recall seeing this much concern over DEF stored in a diesel engine's DEF tank. Consider that a great number of diesel vehicles sit on the lot for many months if not longer, before they are sold. This seemingly has never been an issue in the past. Did anyone read the CUMMINS data previously provided here, regarding the storage of DEF? It can last up to two years, provided it is stored according to the manufacturers' specification ( basically not in a hot environment ). Frankly, With this subject thread I think this is being labeled a problem where no problem exists.

[Wayne M]

Originally Posted by NYBobbo

[...]

Q. Are there special storage requirements for DEF?
A. DEF should be stored in a cool, dry, well
-ventilated area, out of direct sunlight.
While the optimum storage temperature is up to 77 deg F (25 deg C), temporary exposure to higher temperatures has little to no impact on the quality of DEF.


[...]

77degrees? Sorry, I live on the Gulf Coast of Texas and it may be 77˚ sometimes between November and April but the rest of the year it is well over 90˚ and many times that includes the night time temperatures. Seems like an unrealistic statement from Cummins for 77˚. How many motorhomes sit on lots in very hot temperatures?

I read the same article and it was informative except that statement sort of quirked me.

[CoastalEd]

People aren't reading the complete statements from Cummins. One example that seems to have been missed by some here, " If stored between 10 and 90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year. ". Why is everyone all worked up on this? Has anyone seen reports of engine problems or other issues caused by DEF sitting in their DEF tanks for a long period of time?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

People aren't reading the complete statements from Cummins. One example that seems to have been missed by some here, " If stored between 10 and 90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year. ". Why is everyone all worked up on this? Has anyone seen reports of engine problems or other issues caused by DEF sitting in their DEF tanks for a long period of time?

In my particular case I was concerned about whether or not to change the oil and filter, not worried about the DEF. The chassis is 9 months old, and so is the DEF, but I am driving it now and using the DEF and I expect it will all be replaced in the next month or two just from using the RV.

I have not seen the "change engine oil" light (or whatever it is called in a diesel) but we will be making a very long trip (> 4000 miles) at the end of this month and I expect that I will have to change it before we return. Since I do not want to have to hunt up a Ford dealer and wait around to get the oil changed I will do it before we leave. It may not be necessary but I think it will be more convenient to have it done before the trip.

[CoastalEd]

FYI, on my 2018.0 23A purchased off the lot in Feb. 2018, my change oil message came on right near the 5000 mile mark. ( It had about 1400 miles when delivered ). My local Ford dealer is small and will not touch any kind of motorhome. I had my oil changed quickly and easily at a local Oil Can Henry's. I provided the OEM oil filter; Oil Can Henry's carried a quite acceptable Vallvoline Synthetic Diesel oil so I used theirs. Given the likelihood that I will not put 10,000 miles on the Fuse in the next year I'll probably go with just an annual oil change.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

FYI, on my 2018.0 23A purchased off the lot in Feb. 2018, my change oil message came on right near the 5000 mile mark. ( It had about 1400 miles when delivered ). My local Ford dealer is small and will not touch any kind of motorhome. I had my oil changed quickly and easily at a local Oil Can Henry's. I provided the OEM oil filter; Oil Can Henry's carried a quite acceptable Vallvoline Synthetic Diesel oil so I used theirs. Given the likelihood that I will not put 10,000 miles on the Fuse in the next year I'll probably go with just an annual oil change.

Hmm. Never thought about taking a diesel to one of those oil change places. Now that I think of it they seem to have those pits for people to work in so they don't need lifts. I had not thought that a place like Jiffy Lube (we don't have Oil Can Henry here) would even know what to do.

My previous RV was a 2005 Pleasure-Way Class B RV with a Ford V10 and I took it to my local Ford dealer for service. When I bought the Fuse I called them and asked if they would service it and they said sure. They said they do RVs all the time, but they are a fairly big operation. Their cost for an oil change on a diesel is somewhere between $150 and $200 while the RV dealer wants $350 for an oil change. Of course it is possible that the RV dealer does more than just change the oil and filter, but I would not count on that.

[CoastalEd]

Yes, those quick stop oil places work well... I watched them like a hawk and was convinced that they really did know what they were doing. Those pits really make it work for the oil change. ... actually, my Oil Can Henry's was purchased by Valvoline so they now run the place. Same people, though. Jiffy Lube should be about the same.



But Mike, Mike, Mike ..... those oil change prices ! My Valvoline place charged $138.00 for the complete job, and took $10. off that because I moaned about not bringing my coupon. They check lights, tires, and other fluids, too. I did provide the Ford oil filter but that was less than $10. anyway. Again, I had Ford certified synthetic Vavoline oil of high quality put in. Whole process took about 20 minutes and I never left the vehicle.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by CoastalEd

But Mike, Mike, Mike ..... those oil change prices ! My Valvoline place charged $138.00 for the complete job, and took $10. off that because I moaned about not bringing my coupon. They check lights, tires, and other fluids, too. I did provide the Ford oil filter but that was less than $10. anyway. Again, I had Ford certified synthetic Vavoline oil of high quality put in. Whole process took about 20 minutes and I never left the vehicle.

I will have to look into that.

And now that you mention it, when I bought my previous RV (that 2005 Pleasure-Way Class B) I bought it used and demanded that they change the oil before I took delivery. They did so and when I asked where they did it they told me Jiffy Lube. I had completely forgotten about that until your post in this thread.