Winnebago Journey Lemon?

[GG1]

Where do you go to find the federal laws on this issue? I think we all could use one central location that could deal with the many similar problems instead of bouncing from state to state which have all different laws.

[JHS]

We are trying to enjoy our Journey 32T 2004. We have taken 5 trips so far and have had to visit a service department each time. Some of our problems: bad igniter on heater, a toilet that wouldn't shut off the water when delivered, convection oven that didn't work, faulty alternator, leaky jacks, faulty turbocharter, low coolant when delivered, water in tank but couldn't get to faucets, door hinge on front covering generator separated from coach and water leak under galley sink that occurred sometimes (two faulty elbows?, four days at dealers with a new faucet, new filter spout and new elbow and still a leak), a radio that worked some of the time (almost a year before they found the loose wire) and a feed back squeal that we had for months before we accidentally found the cause. Patio awning motor failed after being used perhaps 8 times. Now something is making us uneasy with the air system. It takes about 3 weeks to get an appointment and then 6 weeks or more to get the coach back. It's hard to believe so many components could fail in one rig in one year.

[The Shadow]

JHS - I feel your pain. We have had a lot of problems but you go right by us in that department.

I looked at a 2005 Journey 39K today. I'm tempted to jump in the hope that it will have fewer problems. I looked at the CCC on the label of the 39K - not even half of what my 39W has - so that has made me stop and think. Our 39W goes in for service on May 11, and warranty expires May 28. I guess we will be lucky to even get existing problems fixed. When we called or an appointment for warranty repairs the wait time was 8 weeks. After the warranty is up and we are on a "cash basis" I'm sure they will take us pronto.

I looked at a range of new units today and if we do switch it will be to the 39K or a 40 ft Ambassador that has a sitting room at the rear (we did like the Vectra 40FD but concluded it was somewhat overpriced. We'd go for a similarily equipped 40 ft Endeavor before the Vectra since it is over $30k less.).

I wish you luck in solving your problems. Frustration seems to be an integral part of W ownership for many of us.

[The Shadow]

I'm in Canada so none of the US law is relevant.

I've been in contact with Winnie and they passed photos on to Freightliner who said it was dealers fault entirely. Neither Winnie nor FTL will take any responsibility.
Don

[The Shadow]

I keep wondering if the only thing that will wake up the dealers and manufacturers will be a massive class action against all of them by most of us. Given the number of ambulance chasers that are suing the drug companies, some of them might want to look and see if this is fertile ground as well.

[The Shadow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cboh1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">dleslie125 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
dleslie125

Where did you take delivery? Canada or here in the US? Also check with your lender if that is the route you took.

Let us know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bought and delivered in Canada (mind you, the delivery man was fast - Cat connected to the computer and found he had driven at 87 mph enroute from Iowa to Ontario through the slush, snow and SALT). I don't borrow money so there is no lender involved.

[The Shadow]

We have the CAT computer print out. No one gets excited at the dealer or Winnie when we mention it.

They really have to smarten up. Our steering wheel was almost 90 degrees off center. One would think that the guy delivering it to the dealer would have noticed this - but I guess he was going so fast he couldn't look down.

Why the dealer didn't notice and fix it during PDI is also a mystery (well, not really - they just had too much volume to care). Our unit was in stock and they couldn't schedule delivery for over a month - and then they only washed it and removed most of the stickers.

[The Shadow]

By the way, my 39W is basically a pretty good unit. I figure some proper care by the dealer and perhaps another 2 or 3 hours of quality control at the factory and it would have been highly acceptable. If they can get all the problems fixed I'd rate it as very acceptable and very enjoyable. Lots of nice features - when they work.

[The Shadow]

I don't think it helps the manufacturers to sit back and say "oh, sure we put out a few units that aren't so hot - but overall our quality is good." Well, I don't really care about "overall" in the end, I care about MY individual unit. They really should (not just Winnie but ALL the MH manufacturers) jump on the problem units and fix them.

As I reflect on it and think of how things work in a lot of construction businesses. I wonder if the answer would be to have an escrow agent who holds, say, $15,000 (or some amount related to purchase price) from the purchase and portions would be released on a periodic basis over the first year provided problems found were fixed in an acceptable manner. I think a system like this would result in MUCH better service from the dealer and MUCH better factory support.

I can't envisage talking to the GM, Ford or Chrysler factories as much as I've talked to the factory in this case. That would not be necessary if things were done properly the first time (well, or second or third time ) I don't think I talked to factory people for my cars more than 2 or 3 times in over 40 years. As I think about it, 2 of the 3 were before purchase and one was after a Camaro was out of warranty and the engine blew. They could find no reason why it should have put a rod through the block and fixed it no charge.

[GG1]

cboh 1

Based upon what you said previously almost everyone who participates in this forum has a good case for a class action. For the past 3 yrs every time I go out on a trip (2weeks-4months) I come back with a list, most of which is the same stuff over and over and also some new things. My dealer has been very good with the problems but I know he will not fix the same things again and again indefinitely for free.

[GG1]

cboh1

Sorry I thought I read it in one of your posts. I guess it was another, after a while it all becomes a blur. I do have a terrific dealer but it still becomes a terrible inconvienance as they are over an hour away and sooner or later the repairs will have to come out of my pocket.

[The Shadow]

I made that comment. It was not Winnie specific and applied to the industry as a whole - manufacturers and dealers.

Do you think GM would be able to smile and continue doing business without a class action if it took 8 weeks to get service when you had a warranty repair? I think you'd find them in court so quick it would make your head spin. Does that happen with GM? NO. Never. I have 2 GM products and I get service within a day for regular maintenance and if it is a breakdown (haven't had any) it would be immediate.

Now, look at the Forbes article in late 2004 on Lazy Days. They mentioned the 8 week wait for service (I've heard LD is going to put on a third shift to try and speed things up). My own dealer said 8 weeks when I called 5 weeks ago. It used to be 6 weeks but now 8. Then, once you take your coach in you have no idea how long they will "need" it to make the repairs. In Oct they had mine for 3 weeks and did a shoddy job and didn't even do some of the items.

So, a big juicy legal action by all owners against those who inflict this injustice on us might change their attitudes. Frankly, it could be as simple as an investigation by Elliott Spitzer, some huge settlements, and we'd see changes like we've seen since he let loose on Wall Street.

What could Spitzer go after them for - well, warranty is one year. If you have to wait 8 weeks and then they have it for 3 - how much warranty are you really getting.

MSRP - regularly reported that some dealers inflate to improve the discount. Fraud IMO. He could have a field day in this area if he would take a look at it.

Delivery of shoddy coaches - don't need to say anything about that - this forum and more particularly RV.net are full of examples with virtually every manufacturer. Occasionally we do see some nice comments about a dealer here or there.

If I sound frustrated like others - that is because I am. My warranty expires May 28th so I'll be on my own soon and will have received very little support from the dealer. Either the dealer wakes up or my next MH will be purchased elsewhere (from one of those small family locations that appear to care - if I stay with Winnie) or another small shop if I go to another brand.

One of my tests before buying in the future will be to investigate the "service wait."

Perhaps the slow down will help improve the service deficiency and the factory quality control issues (I can dream, can't I? On the other hand they should look at the pros. I've had no problem getting good and fast service out of Cat and Freightliner. Why not from the guys who actually build and sell the coach as well?

e&oe

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GG1:
cboh 1

Based upon what you said previously almost everyone who participates in this forum has a good case for a class action. For the past 3 yrs every time I go out on a trip (2weeks-4months) I come back with a list, most of which is the same stuff over and over and also some new things. My dealer has been very good with the problems but I know he will not fix the same things again and again indefinitely for free. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[The Shadow]

cboh1,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And if you **** the dealer off they can refuse to service your MH. Now here is another option you can try and that is call Winnebago and say you need your MH fixed and fixed now. The have actually gave me permission to go to an independent to get the warrantee work done. Problem is the shop does not want to wait the 90 days for Winnebago to pay them so you need to pay first and then bill Winnebago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the selling dealer refuses it will be in for a terrible battle. Note in your warranty, Winnie has the right to tell you to take it to the factory for repairs. I find that difficult to comprehend. What they should do is establish regional warranty repair centers OR really improve the dealer network.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Now if you have a WH chassis you have 3 years or 36,000 miles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a Freightliner chassis covered for 3 years or 50,000 miles

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Look at my case. I have had my MH in the shop for going on 3 weeks and it is being held up by a $27.00 filter that they do not stock and have to buy from Workhorse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That certaily runs contrary to the wonderful Workhorse service its fans keep talking about. A 3 week wait to get a filter from WHCC seems absurd. Is there something else involved. Either the dealer or WHCC is doing something wrong.

As to dealer service, I think they have a pecking order - paying customers (out of warranty or installation of accessories etc) first, warranty work last. In some cases they have two service streams - warranty and non-warranty. I don't know for sure, but I am beginning to feel that Winnie and other manufacturers don't pay the dealers for a lot of "adjustments" that have to be done by the dealer during the warranty period (and when doing the inspection [to the extent any do it in high volume period] prior to delivery). By this I mean some of the things that were a problem on my MH. For example, the door between the galley and bath came off the tracks. The header panel must be removed to put it back on. I don't think the dealer got paid for this. Same with carpet that wasn't glued down in the entrance. Same with the steering wheel being 90 deg off center. If it requires parts then I think they get paid - but not for "fine tuning adjustments." If my hunch is right, it is the reason for the unbearable service and lengthy waits. The dealers simply allocate certain resources to non-pay warranty work and then you sit in line to get some of this time.

[Mike Lutz]

At this time 1646 people have viewed this mailing from Jon and Vicki Pritchard. I believe many of the conditions they have outlined were taken care of by their dealer. I have never purchased anything of this value and so complex that was without some fault. This has opened a can of what seems to be "evil remarks and comments concerning Winnebago". The comments of members are by far more positive than negative. Our problems have not been of that proportion. So often I learned that the "operator" (myself) did not read manuals and follow the instructions as warned. I hope people will view the comments of other readers with a "grain of salt". The dealer plays such an important part in this process. Perhaps more effort needs to be made to inform customers. Perhaps customers need to take more time with the dealers and learn the systems. Be patient with the dealer. I see people constantly looking for the warranty to fix items unreasonably. Because of the cost of the coach, could we expect more than the dealer is capable of giving? If it is mechanical, it can go wrong. Fix it and get over it ! I suspect the motorhome met all of standards when the family picked it up or they would never have driven off. Can tings that go wrong be the fault of Winnebago if they worked when the coach left the dealer? My best wishes to all who have comments that are negative, but remember we must be involved in the process to get it fixed.
Thank you

[GG1]

Get real Mike. I worked too hard for what I have to spend 200K on something and then feel good about things going wrong all the time. You must have money to through away. If I was in the business I would like everyone of my customers to have your outlook. It sure sounds like your a salesman.

[The Shadow]

Mike, I'm having trouble with your comments. You seem to foolishly imply that we are the author of our own problems. NOTHING is farther from the truth.

Look at my floor in the bath area. Winnie says a wall is moving and causing the problem. Two dealers have tried to fix it - no luck yet. Next try coming up in 2 weeks. Please tell me
how I could cause this problem myself.

Floor tiles

The bolts are missing on my generator. How did I find out? Well, I looked. Why did I look? Well, I read a number of comments on this forum about missing bolts. Took a look and found ALL 4 of mine are missing. Please tell me how I caused or contributed to this problem.

Generator bolts

I've got a LOT of rust underneath the coach. When we took delivery and I got it home I looked underneath because a friend spotted a wire hanging down. Saw a LOT of rust. The wire - after 2 weeks we found it was for the electric door openers. Oops, they weren't an option on the 2004 Journey - they had used the same harness as the Meridian.

Freightliner has said the DEALER is at fault for the rust. The MH was driven from Iowa in January and the standing instructions say that the undercarriage must be power washed when it arrives. The dealer did not wash it. How did
I contribute to my problem?

Rust



For your info, I have asked my dealer to quote me a trade price for a new 2005 39K he has on his lot. So, I'm not turning my back on either Winnie or the dealer - YET.

I suspect they are going to ask for an outrageous difference and I'll just stick with what I have. (I do have a concern about the 39K in that it has half the CCC of my 39W - as of April 1 the GVWR was increased by 1500 lbs - all on the rear axle - this unit was manufactured much earlier - but it does at least have a factory undercoating)

If the dealer will not properly solve our problems - then our relationship with him ends.

We will go to the factory for repairs if necessary. If Winnie doesn't come through - we are done with its products as well. If Winnie comes through, we will buy Winnie again but next time from an Itasca dealer.

Now, we've had many other problems. Like others here, our mud/stone guard at the back came out of the U bracket (tore out). The replacement was a month late in arriving - got lost in transit. It is the same as the one we have - we don't want it. The dealer fixed the old one with a heavy steel bar across the top and it is much better than the new replacement.

12V outlets up front. The one in the dash was so loose that the Brack Buddy light wouldn't stay in. The one next to the copilot fell out. Both retaining rings hadn't been put on properly. I took the cover off the dash and fixed it myself. Same with the other one.

Drawer hardware has come out - screws too short.

Our booth dinette - table leg fell out - the screws were too short. The dealer put in new ones. They fell out. The first screws must have been 3/16ths of an inch long. The second 4/16ths. They fell out as soon as we got to Florida. So, I went out and got longer screws and it has stayed fixed.

The radio didn't work. No one at the factory or the dealer bothered to check it. Turns out the antenna cable was squashed during installation. They had to run a new one.

When we drove off on delivery date the steering wheel was almost 90 deg off centre. Another dealer fixed that before we went on a trip last Sept as our dealer needed 6 weeks for an appointment.

When we picked up our MH the inner rear tire was FLAT. How was that discovered? Well, I told them what pressure I wanted as I checked them and found them all over the map. I thought my gauge wasn't working properly and asked them to check my reading on the inside right rear. Oh oh, they got no reading either. Since then we've had air loss problems with that tire. I just recently found that it was likely the valve extender - corroded from all the road salt during delivery. A week ago today the other inner went down 50 lbs overnight. I BOUGHT new extenders and put them on - it "appears" (touch wood) that this has solved the problem (Mike, should I charge them for the extenders?).

The list goes on. Many I fixed myself - so I AM contributing to the solution. BUT, I don't have the skills to fix the big problems.

So, if you think these are imaginary problems and they don't really exist - well, guess again, because you are dead wrong.

Some of these are serious problems and could result in personal injury. My only interest at this time is to have them fixed (or, if the price is not outlandish, trade and hopefully get a coach like yours and DriVers - problem free). If they can't or won't fix them, then I have even more significant problems.

I don't think anyone should get upset by reports of problems. If they exist we should know about them. I'm a firm believer that we also want to know about the GOOD experiences as well - and I don't hestitate to report those. If this forum is just for praise of Winnie, even when not warranted - then it won't be worth much to anyone.

If you folks have followed my topics, their not far off from what you experienced. Some of the folks at this site have come back with repies saying, "that I have a negative atttitude". You d___ well bet-a I do and like some of the others here, for a d___ good reason. As humans, we are trained to be reactionary. By that, we are tought to respond to an action before it overwelms us or we overwelm it. Example: If you buy a carton of milk and you open it, what's the first thing you do before you drink any of it? You smell it, right? What have you been tought about milk that smells bad? You sure as heck don't drink it, right, unless you like smelly sour milk. So, you stop and think about your act and then you react.

The problems we experience with our coaches, dealers and the manufactures are real life experiences. Experiences that cause a reaction, sometimes not to our liking and sometimes not to the liking of the dealer or the manufacture. And then there's the degree to which we react, some reactions are mellow and others are abusive. I prefer the abusive ones, I want my point to stick with them and not be forgotten. There's no reason on this, God's green earth, that we should have to accept second class products, second hand service and second hand factory support. The price we pay for these coaches is outragious, compared to their actual value and worth. The profits the manufactures and dealers make, is outragious, but the service and support we get after the sale can not be call outragious. Maybe outragiously poor if any. If these situations don't warrant a negative reaction, I don't know what does!

Tomcat F15
"I'm glad to see someone else turning up the heat on this subject, now, if we would stop buying their products, maybe they would react by building better products."

(missed a word)

[DonavonP]

Mike Lutz,

I found your post to be informative and professional.

Thanks!!

[The Shadow]

Truly amazing. Would you mind sharing what you found to be so informative? I must be missing something. The post was clearly school-marmish, scolding the students, and nothing more.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DonavonP:
Mike Lutz,

I found your post to be informative and professional.

Thanks!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[RustyJC]

Folks,

Let's be careful as this thread progresses. Some of the posts are getting pretty close to flaming which is not allowed under any circumstances here on iRV2.com.

Discuss the issues to your heart's content, but please avoid derogatory references to any other posters.

Thanks,

Rusty