LiFeO4 storage & buy concerns - especially long term in cold or hot locations.

[imnprsd]

I have started a new thread to address LiFeO4 storage concerns.

* I think it is save to say, almost everyone would own LiFeO4 house batteries if the price was not so high.

* This thread is NOT about the benefits of LiFeO4 over FLA batteries. That you can read elsewhere. So, please do not post all the reasons why you love your LiFeO4 batteries. We accept the positives as being real and desirable.

* With Battle Born and Lithonics leading the way, they command a premium price, but as with any product price starts to drop as the market matures.

* And to launch sales, sometimes guarantees create revenue until the market accepts the technology.

* So now I want to be a buyer, but I have to get these questions answered first.

STORAGE QUESTIONS

1) If I store my RV in Montana during the winter, where OAT can be between 5F and 25F for 2-3 months, and between 25F-40F for 2 months; what would you recommend I do to keep my LiFeO4 batteries in good shape?

A) I plan to put my LiFeO4 bank inside my basement and keep my FLA in the battery tray as-is.

==> So it is highly advisable I buy a LiFeO4 box that comes with built-in heaters; or can I add a storage heater to my basement and that will work better/cheaper? ...Like boaters do in cold weather.

B) When owner remove their FLA batteries from the tray and put their new lithium batteries in its place -- how do they keep the batteries warm when the the OAT is 5F to 25F? (I.e., the battery tray is expose to the outside and is not an enclosure like the basement.)

==> Is a thermal blanket an option?

==> All these heating solutions sound like it will take a 800W space heater or battery blanket to run 24-7 for 3+ months. Is this correct? ...If so that's a lot of watts and added expense; never mind the fire risks. IDK. I'm asking here so don't go all "bazooka" on me!

B) Same question, only I store my RV in Phoenix all year where OAT temperatures reach 118F and who know how hot it gets inside the basement of the RV.

* How do you deal with LiFeO4 battery storage in 105+ OAT heat, for 3-4 months of storage, charging, ect.?

LiFeO4 Battery Guarantee

* Can LiFeO4 batteries still claim 8,000 - 10,000 cycles?

* I see these LiFeO4 battery guarantees range from 4,000 cycles to 10,000 cycles. Is this marketing and sales or is there any data to back-up these claims specific to LiFeO4 chemistry?

* Are all (90%+) of these battery cells made in China and assembled in the USA?

* What are all those Battle Born / Lithonics owners doing about battery storage? ...Or do they all live in moderate climates?

[DavidM]

My understanding is that you can store LiFePO4 batteries in very cold weather, but you cannot charge them. When Will Prowse disassembles a Li battery to see how it is built inside, he shows us the temp probe and sticks it in ice water to confirm it shuts off charging.

And unlike FLA batteries which can freeze and burst if the SOC is too low (the SG drops and the freezing point of the electrolyte increases) Li batteries do not have this problem

David

[imnprsd]

Yes... I have stored my RV in Texas where it only drops into the high 20's on-and-off for a month or so and I believe this is the primary reason my FLA batteries only last 6 months after that.

I'm guessing when an FLA freezes the electrolyte it often only affects 1 or 2 cells. Then that bad cell "pulls down" the voltage in the other cells; and then that battery changes the entire bank of batteries ability to equalize; and after a couple months your SOC will go from 90 to 80 to 70%... and when you run you microwave for 3 minutes the battery will NOT RECOVER and it's time buy new ones.

Back to LiFeO4 winter storage suggestions: If you can't monitor your LiFeO4 charger in the winter, to know when to turn it on and turn it off; are you (and others) saying you just put the RV away with your LiFeO4 bank left at 50% SOC and pick it up (good to go) the next season? Have I got that right?

What about the summer? What happens when a 50% SOC LiFeO4 bank gets left unattended to in 110-120F heat? ...Once again you just do nothing? ...Which is fine by me if this is the case?

[tim myers]

I am also just now exploring the use and upgrade to LiFePO4 batteries, so I do not have many answers. I do know that when I was living in Alaska a lifetime ago, we used Heated Battery Blankets, and heated battery plates to keep our FLA batteries from freezing down to -50F.


I don't see why this wouldn't work for the LiFePO4 as well.

https://www.etrailer.com/Vehicle-Hea...hoCo54QAvD_BwE

https://www.amazon.com/Zerostart-280...0922347&sr=8-3


https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Silicone-...a-823220950511

[Marine359]

Originally Posted by tim myers

I am also just now exploring the use and upgrade to LiFePO4 batteries, so I do not have many answers. I do know that when I was living in Alaska a lifetime ago, we used Heated Battery Blankets, and heated battery plates to keep our FLA batteries from freezing down to -50F.


I don't see why this wouldn't work for the LiFePO4 as well.

[/URL]

You can store LifFePo4 at temps down to -4F for up to 3 months without damage. You just can’t charge it below freezing, and discharging it below freezing is limited. We live in a moderate winter climate with temps rarely staying below 10F, so we left battery in rig the whole winter. (not advised for cold climates) When we fired it up in the spring, it had lost only about 0.5v, so it was still more than half full SOC. Next winter, we’ll probably put a 120v electric blanket on it, or just disconnect it and bring it indoors. They don’t weigh much, so even if I had two or more, it would be easy to park them in the basement. We’re planning to travel in cold weather this winter, so I might need to get a 12v blanket and leave it on in freezing temps. Charge with solar.

[imnprsd]

In my 2004 Itasca "Horizon" 40A, like so many Winnebago's, my battery tray is very tightly tucked away and it's not fun to remove the batteries.

A lighter weight LiFeO4 is nicer to have, but dealing with all the battery cables is a pain, and they you have put the batteries somewhere. So I don't see removing the batteries as an option for me.

My battery tray is also completely exposed to the outside elements since it was designed for FLA batteries that need to vent. (See attached picture taken after the basement AC was removed.)

Therefore, I don't see a way to use a thermal blanket around my current battery tray from both an access point of view and when I leave my RV in storage I don't return for 6-7 months. I.e., I can't control to power on/off to the blanket or the LiFO4 charger/maintainer.

However, it sounds like I can just deplete the LiFeO4 battery to 50% and just leave it sit as-is in the freezing cold and heat so long as I don't need to use it or charge it. Is this correct?

[Marine359]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

In my 2004 Itasca "Horizon" 40A, like so many Winnebago's, my battery tray is very tightly tucked away and it's not fun to remove the batteries.

A lighter weight LiFeO4 is nicer to have, but dealing with all the battery cables is a pain, and they you have put the batteries somewhere. So I don't see removing the batteries as an option for me.

My battery tray is also completely exposed to the outside elements since it was designed for FLA batteries that need to vent. (See attached picture taken after the basement AC was removed

However, it sounds like I can just deplete the LiFeO4 battery to 50% and just leave it sit as-is in the freezing cold and heat so long as I don't need to use it or charge it. Is this correct?

I wouldn’t recommend leaving them in the Montana winter unless you connect a thermostat to your blanket, and check on them occasionally. Consider installing Anderson connectors on your LiFePo4 battery terminals, and carry handles. I love mine. My 170AH weighs only 35lbs. All I have to do is pull the plug and walk off with the battery.

There are 12v holding tank heater pads with built-in thermostat on Amazon. Thermostat pre-sets are closer to LiFePo4 preferred operating range. Thinking of buying one for our winter travels. For storage, hook up to a ac/dc converter brick.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

STORAGE QUESTIONS

1) If I store my RV in Montana during the winter, where OAT can be between 5F and 25F for 2-3 months, and between 25F-40F for 2 months; what would you recommend I do to keep my LiFeO4 batteries in good shape?

A) I plan to put my LiFeO4 bank inside my basement and keep my FLA in the battery tray as-is.

==> So it is highly advisable I buy a LiFeO4 box that comes with built-in heaters; or can I add a storage heater to my basement and that will work better/cheaper? ...Like boaters do in cold weather.

B) When owner remove their FLA batteries from the tray and put their new lithium batteries in its place -- how do they keep the batteries warm when the the OAT is 5F to 25F? (I.e., the battery tray is expose to the outside and is not an enclosure like the basement.)

==> Is a thermal blanket an option?

==> All these heating solutions sound like it will take a 800W space heater or battery blanket to run 24-7 for 3+ months. Is this correct? ...If so that's a lot of watts and added expense; never mind the fire risks. IDK. I'm asking here so don't go all "bazooka" on me!

B) Same question, only I store my RV in Phoenix all year where OAT temperatures reach 118F and who know how hot it gets inside the basement of the RV.

* How do you deal with LiFeO4 battery storage in 105+ OAT heat, for 3-4 months of storage, charging, ect.?

LiFeO4 Battery Guarantee

* Can LiFeO4 batteries still claim 8,000 - 10,000 cycles?

* I see these LiFeO4 battery guarantees range from 4,000 cycles to 10,000 cycles. Is this marketing and sales or is there any data to back-up these claims specific to LiFeO4 chemistry?

* Are all (90%+) of these battery cells made in China and assembled in the USA?

* What are all those Battle Born / Lithonics owners doing about battery storage? ...Or do they all live in moderate climates?

Living in southern Arizona I clearly can not address your questions about sub-freezing temperatures but I can address those about heat.

Temperatures from mid May through mid October often spend time in the 100+ range and between early July and late August are pretty close to only in that range with upper limits of 115+ F, so our Lithium batteries sit around in that heat for long periods of time. Still, I have not seen any issues with them either losing charge or not providing power when needed. They are never hooked up to shore power when in storage although they are hooked up to the solar panels on the roof. Our storage is covered so there is not much sunlight hitting them, but they are always at 100% when we pick up the RV for a trip.

However there may be an issue with the DC-DC Charger used to charge them when driving in that those devices have a recommended temperature range and if they are stored outside the coach it may be hot enough to shut them down or, at the very least, reduce the charger output.

As for us, we usually take our RV on a trip about every 3 weeks so they do not sit for more than that time in storage. But they are not "plugged in" to any trickle charger and I have not seen any issues at all.

As to the number of cycles, it is hard to judge because 8,000 cycles is probably longer than anyone on this forum has had any Lithium batteries. I have no reason to believe that heat reduces those cycles but even if it dropped them in half there would still be more cycles than I could expect to use during the lifetime of my RV use.

It is my understanding that all cells are made in China and some batteries, like BB, do the cell matching and assembly here in the US and I have seen nothing to indicate that that is expected to change in the near (or far) future. Still, based on the Will Prowse videos, the cell matching is important, as is the quality of the cells and the process of building the batteries, so I would expect to stay with the better known batteries - BattleBorn, Lithionics, Lion, ReLion and Renogy, and you can save yourself the price of a BM system by buying one that has built-in-in bluetooth functionality. Unfortunately that leaves out the current BB batteries (which is what I have).