Journey Solar

[jonnshell30]

Good afternoon all,
Looking for any info on the stock solar on our 2005 Journey 36G. I understand that it's only 10 watts, but What a cannot find is how it is wired and connected. Does it have a controller? We will be installing a minimum of 400 watts with a new 3000 watt inverter. I want to see if the current wiring is adequate to use, and where it is connected.
Any info is very appreciated.

[DavidM]

I know specifically about how the Thor stock solar system is installed and how to add on solar panels, but I suspect Winnebago is the same.

If you want 400 watts of panels, buy four 100 watt panels. Mount them on the roof either with aluminum T supports screwed to the room and sealed with Dicor or use the plastic end and side mounts which can be attached with just Eternabond tape to the roof.

Wire them in series/parallel: pairs wired in series that are then wired in parallel. As opposed to parallel wiring this will double the voltage and halve the current which will reduce the voltage drop and therefore efficiency losses in the 10 gauge factory installed internal wiring. Make the final connection on the roof to the solar panel port. If it came with anything less than 100 watts, remove that panel and wire the new ones in its place.

Then find where in the coach the roof top wiring terminates. If there is an existing panel then there is some sort of rudimentary solar controller. Remove that one and replace it with a 30 amp or greater rated MPPT controller. Victron and Renogy make good ones. That type of controller can handle the higher voltages of series wired panels and is more efficient than PWM controller which is probably what the factory provided.

Then connect the MPPT controller's input terminals to the roof top wiring. Wire the output terminals to the battery with #6 wire. Put a 40 amp fuse or breaker in that circuit near the batteries.

David

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jonnshell30

Good afternoon all,
Looking for any info on the stock solar on our 2005 Journey 36G. I understand that it's only 10 watts, but What a cannot find is how it is wired and connected. Does it have a controller? We will be installing a minimum of 400 watts with a new 3000 watt inverter. I want to see if the current wiring is adequate to use, and where it is connected.
Any info is very appreciated.

Some of David's general comments are OK but some can misleading with regard to your Journey. There is nothing in your current installation that can be re-used.

Here are the specifics of your MH.

Page 8 of the wiring diagram for your MH shows a connector at coordinates D38 "Connects to Wire ASM Roof". Two of the wires, HT and HS are solar panel wires. Both are noted as 16 gauge, HS is yellow, HT is White. There's no point in tracing them any further, they are far to small for a larger solar panel.

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_148963.pdf

The definitions of HT and HS can be found here (pg 6):

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf

You'll see that, on some models HS and HT are 12 gauge which, even if you had them would be too small for your wattage.

I don't see a solar controller listed in the parts catalog and one wouldn't be necessary for 10W. Even if it had one, it would be woefully under-sized and outdated.

Given all this, forget about anything that's already there and install your new system from scratch. Your new controller is going to give you all the info you need so don't worry about trying to wire it up to the solar indicator on your current power management system.

You'll want to choose the most direct route possible from your new panels to your batteries and the controller should be mounted as close to the batteries as possible. There are numerous threads and sites that address all these issues along with the necessary wire sizes.

[imnprsd]

You might like to know, the LED circuit board for your holding tank is made by Ventline; and in the upper right corner is a 4-wire connector for the solar panel.

This summer I diagnosed my holding tank sensors, and found cracked solder joints on the circuit board that go to the solar connector. I repaired them and that helped my holding tank LED lights to become a little accurate, but I would not bother to to that over again.

Instead, I would recommend you undo the black faceplate and when you have access to the back of the panel you can re-organize the rats nest of wires behind the panel; and then I would recommend you unplug the solar power connector to the Venline circuit board so your Solar LED status light is no longer functional.

Note: Chances are the Solar LED light wasn't working anyway and there's even a good chance the solar wires to that 10W roof panel were shorted. So by just unplug the connector and you may be doing yourself a favor. I.e., maybe your gray or black LED lights might work; and if you always felt you had a lot of parasitic power drain on your engine battery, maybe it will be less after you unplug the solar power connector on that circuit board.

If your Gray and Black LED lights are never working right, there is a 50/50 chance you can fix this. For more information go to this link:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...-360442-2.html

[neub]

I installed 600 watts of solar on our 2005 36G a few years ago. As mentioned you will noy use any of the current solar wiring as it is inadequate for much more then the 10 watt panel. After research on this site I NOT to screw the panels to the roof but rather use 3M VHB tape to mount the panel brackets and I ran the wiring down the back of the refrigertor vent down to controller in the the basement compartment

[DavidM]

Interesting comments very specific to this coach. Yes, with 16 gauge or even 12 gauge wire, pull it out and start over. Go with at least #10 if you wire the panels in series/parallel as I discussed in my earlier post, #6 if you wire them all in parallel.

David

[BobC]

Don't bother trying to pull the old wiring out, you probably can't get it all out and, since they go via the power management system, probably take a circuitous route. Just run new wires down the refrigerator vent like neub did.

[jonnshell30]

Originally Posted by BobC

Some of David's general comments are OK but some can misleading with regard to your Journey. There is nothing in your current installation that can be re-used.

Here are the specifics of your MH.

Page 8 of the wiring diagram for your MH shows a connector at coordinates D38 "Connects to Wire ASM Roof". Two of the wires, HT and HS are solar panel wires. Both are noted as 16 gauge, HS is yellow, HT is White. There's no point in tracing them any further, they are far to small for a larger solar panel.

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_148963.pdf

The definitions of HT and HS can be found here (pg 6):

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf

You'll see that, on some models HS and HT are 12 gauge which, even if you had them would be too small for your wattage.

I don't see a solar controller listed in the parts catalog and one wouldn't be necessary for 10W. Even if it had one, it would be woefully under-sized and outdated.

Given all this, forget about anything that's already there and install your new system from scratch. Your new controller is going to give you all the info you need so don't worry about trying to wire it up to the solar indicator on your current power management system.

You'll want to choose the most direct route possible from your new panels to your batteries and the controller should be mounted as close to the batteries as possible. There are numerous threads and sites that address all these issues along with the necessary wire sizes.

Thanks David!
I kinda figured this would be the case.

[jonnshell30]

Originally Posted by neub

I installed 600 watts of solar on our 2005 36G a few years ago. As mentioned you will noy use any of the current solar wiring as it is inadequate for much more then the 10 watt panel. After research on this site I NOT to screw the panels to the roof but rather use 3M VHB tape to mount the panel brackets and I ran the wiring down the back of the refrigertor vent down to controller in the the basement compartment

I like the tape idea, as I'm not too keen on creating new moisture access points. Even with Dicor, the risk is there, especially in our rain forest climate here in the greater Seattle area. Since you have our exact model, dis you replace the Dimensions inverter/converter? Ours is 2K watts and would seem to be able to handle the new solar. As well, did you have to replace the battery charger?
Thanks so much for putting up with the newbie question barrage!

[neub]

Still have the Dimensions 2000 watt inverter/charger as there is no need to change it until it fails. Your solar controller will have charging settings for the type of house batteries you have whether flooded, agm or lithium. I changed out our three group 31 12 volt batteries for four 6 volt golf cart batteries from costco.

[jonnshell30]

Originally Posted by neub

Still have the Dimensions 2000 watt inverter/charger as there is no need to change it until it fails. Your solar controller will have charging settings for the type of house batteries you have whether flooded, agm or lithium. I changed out our three group 31 12 volt batteries for four 6 volt golf cart batteries from costco.

Thank you for the information. I have group 29 batteries, and have considered lithium, but there just way too expensive for now. I like the fact that the charge controller will adapt to the different battery types. That way, later on, I can change as needed.

[BobC]

Are your batteries true deep cycle as opposed to dual purpose "Marine/RV" batteries" How many amh hours (Ah) do you have in total?

[jonnshell30]

MAX Marine Deep Cycle Marine/RV from Walmart. 120 amp hour

[DavidM]

Unfortunately few so called deep cycle batteries meet these specs:

More room under the plates for sulfate buildup
More room over the plates for electrolyte loss
Heavy plates so they don't become swiss cheese at deep discharge conditions.

One type that you can rely on are 6V, golf cart batteries. Most others don't meet these specs.

David

[BobC]

One 120Ah Marine/RV battery isn't going to cut it. Your 400W of solar panels will be wasted without a sufficient battery bank made up of true, deep cycle batteries. Not only is it undersized, it's not a true deep cycle battery.

David's suggestion is a good one. Two 6v golf cart batteries is the least expensive option and will give you about 200Ah - 225Ah, depending on the battery.

That's is what I've used for years. Conventional, flooded lead acid versions can be purchased at Sam's Club and Costco, starting at under $100. AGM versions are available at a higher price. You'll need two, connected in parallel (+ to +, - to -). If you get the flooded lead acid version, it's a good idea to get a watering system that makes keeping them topped off very easy:

https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Rite-RV2...8014095&sr=8-5

You'll also want to get the filling kit.

Also, for the record, the cost of LiFePO4 (Lithium) batteries is coming down. Will Prowse, a respected Youtuber just positively reviewed a 100Ah one for $399:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iBMHE3StM&t=1s

This seems like a lot more than lead acid, but a 100Ah LiFePO4 battery has about twice as much capacity as a 100Ah lead acid battery. This is because the lead acid battery's voltage drops considerably as it's discharged while the LiFePO4 battery's voltage stays pretty much the same for the entire 100Ah. If you have an electric drill with a lithium battery, you may have noticed that it doesn't slow down as the battery is discharged but just suddenly quits.

I'm not trying to convince you to go the LiFePO4 route, I just want to put it in perspective. Personally I'm sticking with my golf cart batteries, especially since my MH hasn't been used for the past year. If they died tomorrow, I'd replace them with new ones and further delay converting to LiFePO4.

[DavidM]

Wow, I think I have finally caught Bob C. In his statement " You'll need two, connected in parallel (+ to +, - to -)." he really means connect the two 6V golf cart batteries in series with a short jumper, - to + between the two batteries. You need two connected in series to make 12V.

I know it doesn't make up for all of my misstatements he corrected but it does make me feel a little better .

Just goes to show you that there is lots and lots of similarities between boats and RVs when it comes to their systems. I have been cruising boating for many years until I bought my MH, so my perspective comes from that experience. Many long term cruisers use 6V golf cart batteries; very, very few use lithiums.

David

[BobC]

Originally Posted by DavidM

Wow, I think I have finally caught Bob C. In his statement " You'll need two, connected in parallel (+ to +, - to -)." he really means connect the two 6V golf cart batteries in series with a short jumper, - to + between the two batteries. You need two connected in series to make 12V.

I know it doesn't make up for all of my misstatements he corrected but it does make me feel a little better .

Just goes to show you that there is lots and lots of similarities between boats and RVs when it comes to their systems. I have been cruising boating for many years until I bought my MH, so my perspective comes from that experience. Many long term cruisers use 6V golf cart batteries; very, very few use lithiums.

David

I was still sleepy! You're absolutely right. For the first time in my life I was wrong

Thanks for the correction, it would have been terrible if someone had followed my directions.

I was a sailboater for many years and used 6v golf cart batteries in most of my boats, most recently a Catalina 30 here in the SF Bay Delta. I sold it a few years ago after getting into RVing.

[DavidM]

After thousands of miles cruising I got tired of maintaining engines by crawling around in a cramped engine room so we sold the last of our six cruising boats- some sail, later power, two years ago and bought a MH early this year. Now I do the same thing underneath my MH on the ground.

To continue this digression a few more steps, my boats ranged from about $350 new to $150K used. My MH cost $80K new. The MH is several times more complex with its fancy touch display that controls everything and is fairly tightly integrated with the chassis electricals with a BIM and a relay panel that controls the chassis powered stuff. My cruising sailboats had no such display and minimal connection between the propulsion engine electrics and the house electrics, just an ACR relay. The MH has much more to go wrong or be installed wrong by the factory and is harder to fix.

I think 80% of boatyard work is on mechanicals, not electrics. For MH shops it may be the opposite.

Go figure.

David

[jonnshell30]

Originally Posted by BobC

One 120Ah Marine/RV battery isn't going to cut it. Your 400W of solar panels will be wasted without a sufficient battery bank made up of true, deep cycle batteries. Not only is it undersized, it's not a true deep cycle battery.

David's suggestion is a good one. Two 6v golf cart batteries is the least expensive option and will give you about 200Ah - 225Ah, depending on the battery.

That's is what I've used for years. Conventional, flooded lead acid versions can be purchased at Sam's Club and Costco, starting at under $100. AGM versions are available at a higher price. You'll need two, connected in parallel (+ to +, - to -). If you get the flooded lead acid version, it's a good idea to get a watering system that makes keeping them topped off very easy:

https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Rite-RV2...8014095&sr=8-5

You'll also want to get the filling kit.

Also, for the record, the cost of LiFePO4 (Lithium) batteries is coming down. Will Prowse, a respected Youtuber just positively reviewed a 100Ah one for $399:

This seems like a lot more than lead acid, but a 100Ah LiFePO4 battery has about twice as much capacity as a 100Ah lead acid battery. This is because the lead acid battery's voltage drops considerably as it's discharged while the LiFePO4 battery's voltage stays pretty much the same for the entire 100Ah. If you have an electric drill with a lithium battery, you may have noticed that it doesn't slow down as the battery is discharged but just suddenly quits.

I'm not trying to convince you to go the LiFePO4 route, I just want to put it in perspective. Personally I'm sticking with my golf cart batteries, especially since my MH hasn't been used for the past year. If they died tomorrow, I'd replace them with new ones and further delay converting to LiFePO4.

Hey Bob. Sorry for the misinformation. I have 3 of the 120 amp hours currently, but I definitely want to upgrade. I like the 6v thought, but am going to attempt to keep it all in the same battery tray footprint I have now. And my dilemma is that, even though we use out rig often, I don't know if I can justify the $1200 for the LiFePo4 until and if we were to go some sort of full time. That's why I like that the newer controllers are adaptable.
For the record, what 6v batteries do each of you use?

[DavidM]

Trojan is the gold standard of 6V golf cart batteries, but are expensive at $150+ each. Duracell or similar are sold at Costco for about $100 each and work fine.

David