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Old 03-24-2023, 09:20 AM   #1
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Help: 2003 Journey no power on ignition off!

So, I'm hoping that this is something simple that I am somehow overlooking.


I de-winterized my '03 Journey the other day and re-installed both the chassis and house batteries that I had on trickle chargers. I also took the opportunity to replace some of the cables that were frayed.


Engine starts up beautifully first crank. All internal electrical works as well as the generator as long as the ignition is on. The minute I switch off the ignition, I lose all DC power and even the generator shuts off.


Even on shore power, the TV works as it is AC but the generator will not turn on and there is no internal power (lighting etc.). I pulled the house batteries and tested them, they all tested good. I rechecked the connections and terminals and they are also good. Weird thing though when connecting the batteries, there was no spark like you usually get as something is drawing current--like if the batteries were totally dead (which they aren't).


I'm thinking there has to be a relay or something that has gone bad. I checked my new cables and they all ohm out correctly. I'm stumped. I'm sure I'm not the first person this has happened to. Any help is much appreciated.
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Old 03-24-2023, 09:52 AM   #2
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So to start with what we can say is okay and work backwards to what might not be okay?
When it starts, it is only using the chassis battery, so we can say that is likely good.
When the engine is running the chassis and coach batterya re connected together and that provides power from the chassis and alternator to everything and it works as well as the controls on the generator are likely good as they have power.

But when you turn the key off that connection between the two is dropped and things which should be powered by coach batteries is gone! That says the coach batteries are not connected correctly!

Since you feel they are good, I would look at the cables on them, especially the ground as it is one we often forget. With a meter I would check the coach battery voltage, first on the post body and then on the clamps. also check voltage from the positive to the ground cable and then also to some metal like the frame which is grounded. They should all be the same.
Also verify that ALL the cables got connected as theey are easy to drop one down behind the batteries and they get lost!

Another thought is the way the batttery cutoff switch and relay have to have to have "some" battery to operate to turn power on or off. It is a latching relay that will stay latched in whichever position if you try to turn it on while it has no battery!
Just pushing the switch may not move the relay to close the power, so it may be worthwhile to start the engine, then while running may sure the disconnect is pushed to connect.
Easy to fall into the trap of thinking we pushed the switch , so it connects! NOT true if it did not have power at the time we pushed the switch. Note that it is a momentary switch that only stays as long as we hold it! If it is the type with indicator light, ake sure the light is on.

Meanwhile we can't do much looking at specifics without know WHICH 03 Journey you have as they all have different features.

Good luck on the bug hunt and let us know how it goes.
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Old 03-24-2023, 11:37 AM   #3
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So to start with what we can say is okay and work backwards to what might not be okay?
When it starts, it is only using the chassis battery, so we can say that is likely good.
When the engine is running the chassis and coach batterya re connected together and that provides power from the chassis and alternator to everything and it works as well as the controls on the generator are likely good as they have power.

But when you turn the key off that connection between the two is dropped and things which should be powered by coach batteries is gone! That says the coach batteries are not connected correctly!

Since you feel they are good, I would look at the cables on them, especially the ground as it is one we often forget. With a meter I would check the coach battery voltage, first on the post body and then on the clamps. also check voltage from the positive to the ground cable and then also to some metal like the frame which is grounded. They should all be the same.
Also verify that ALL the cables got connected as theey are easy to drop one down behind the batteries and they get lost!

Another thought is the way the batttery cutoff switch and relay have to have to have "some" battery to operate to turn power on or off. It is a latching relay that will stay latched in whichever position if you try to turn it on while it has no battery!
Just pushing the switch may not move the relay to close the power, so it may be worthwhile to start the engine, then while running may sure the disconnect is pushed to connect.
Easy to fall into the trap of thinking we pushed the switch , so it connects! NOT true if it did not have power at the time we pushed the switch. Note that it is a momentary switch that only stays as long as we hold it! If it is the type with indicator light, ake sure the light is on.

Meanwhile we can't do much looking at specifics without know WHICH 03 Journey you have as they all have different features.

Good luck on the bug hunt and let us know how it goes.

So, I took a lunch break and I'm back at it. My chassis batteries have lots of connections so I made sure to take pictures of that before I disconnected. The house batteries were much simpler and I hate to say that I did not photograph them well before disconnecting. However there is one black and one red. Unless, there should be more connections and I mistakenly connected them to the chassis batteries but if so, I'm not seeing it.


Every other RV I had had a battery cutoff. I do not have one or if there is one, it must be remote as I can't fine it. Where is the battery cutoff on the Journey?



Here are the fall Chassis connections vs. now and the current chassis connection.


I pulled out all the chassis batteries and tested them with a battery tester. Let me start looking for voltage when they are installed.
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Old 03-24-2023, 12:07 PM   #4
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So, I'm happy to say you were right.

Sliding under the RV revealed two wires that were short and had fallen behind the battery box. Connecting those was the usuall expected sparks as the RV is on shorepower. Now working like it should. I greatly appreciate the help.

This view is in my back looking up behind the battery boxes.
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Old 03-24-2023, 12:13 PM   #5
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Even the blind sow finds an acorn now and then!
I've done the lost cable so many times, I just plan on it!

Carry on and enjoy!

There are lots of sites on the Winnebago home page.
Start here when needing info:
https://www.winnebago.com/

Hit owners at left side and it takes you to a listing of lots of info from owners manuals to electrical and plumbing drawings that can help find things.
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:42 PM   #6
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ps. Your battery disconnect switch is on the bank of switches to the right side of the instrument cluster, right next to the radio switch.

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Old 03-30-2023, 06:44 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dickb46 View Post
ps. Your battery disconnect switch is on the bank of switches to the right side of the instrument cluster, right next to the radio switch.

dickb

Thank you. That switch is oddly named and it is a bit confusing.


By the way, since I was messing with the electric, I swapped out the original sealed beams today which were pathetic and actually dangerous for these LEDs intended for Jeeps but perfectly fit the 7" receptacle. I still need to aim them but holy difference Batman and only cost me $100. My lights had a '02 manufacturing stamp on them so they were original and lighting technology has come a long way since then.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0796QHYSR...roduct_details


Other pesky issue is that last year, my step controller broke. I have troubleshot it and I know its the controller as I can retract/extend it by hooking it directly to a battery.


However, it appears that Kwikee no longer makes that controller ((PN-909506000) and that the replacement doesn't work with the original motor so you have to replace both at $500. Obviously not wanting to do that, I tried ordering a knock-off replacement controller to see if I can get that to work. However, it only extends and doesn't retract the step. Anyone have any fixes or hacks for this?



I bought the Kwikee test pigtale but I'm not sure what I'm looking for to make sure the controller is getting the correct signal.
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Old 03-30-2023, 07:17 PM   #8
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This is the Kwikee Product Service Training Manual, which includes a troubleshooting tree, and how to test the steps. It also helps you correctly identify your particular model of Kwikee steps.
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Old 03-30-2023, 08:28 PM   #9
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This is the Kwikee Product Service Training Manual, which includes a troubleshooting tree, and how to test the steps. It also helps you correctly identify your particular model of Kwikee steps.

Thank you from a fellow veteran. That manual specifically references the new controller type (post 2004) but page 11 outlines the voltage readings so I should be able to isolate if the signal getting to my controller is good so it is much appreciated. Looking at the connections, the new style controller seems similar in function to the old one so I'm not understanding why it wouldn't work with the old style motor unless the voltage outputs are different.


I'll crawl back under it tomorrow.
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Old 03-31-2023, 07:48 PM   #10
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So, I tested the new controller and it worked perfectly. I had cut the wires on the old controller assuming it was bad as I made a pigtail to retract the step as it extended but didn't retract.


I re-soldered the the old controller but ran out of time to test it as I had friends coming over for dinner. However, I'm not getting a 12v reading on the brown wire coming going to the controller and that is the retract signal. The only fuse I know of is in the front by the generator but that is good. The manual talks about an in-line fuse but I have no idea where that may be.


By the way, this started when I dropped off the RV to get reupholstered last year. It sat there for a couple months and when I went to pick it up, the step was stuck in the extended position. Any thing that the upholster may have hit or moved that I should check for?


I'm hitting the road tomorrow but I can continue to tinker when I get time.
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Old 04-01-2023, 05:41 PM   #11
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Mike, check the magnetic switch on the step-well wall, it should have 2 wires attached with screws. Make sure both are clean and tight. The magnetic switch can corrode with non-use and become inoperative.The cover simply pulls off, and snaps on.

Grab a strong hand magnet to operate the switch, then tap on the switch with a screwdriver handle while holding the magnet next to the top of the switch.
I had to do mine that way after the MH sat at a body shop for months..
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Old 04-01-2023, 07:07 PM   #12
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Mike, check the magnetic switch on the step-well wall, it should have 2 wires attached with screws. Make sure both are clean and tight. The magnetic switch can corrode with non-use and become inoperative.The cover simply pulls off, and snaps on.

Grab a strong hand magnet to operate the switch, then tap on the switch with a screwdriver handle while holding the magnet next to the top of the switch.
I had to do mine that way after the MH sat at a body shop for months..

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

So, as I was driving I noticed a loose wire sticking out from that sensor in the stairwell. It must have gotten knocked out when they removed the furniture to reupholster it. Sure enough, a Phillips screwdriver and re-pluging in the connector and it works like a charm. Brilliant!

Now, if you can help me solve my real issue which is the engine randomly shutting off and will crank and crank and I usually have to just let it sit and then it will start up like nothing happened. Obviously, very dangerous as you never know when it will do it (Cat diesel).

I chaged out the water separator and this spring I redid a bunch of battery wiring and grounds as I thought it may be an electrical problem. No dice. I've called around but most places around me won't work in it due to the age. The truck guys don't want to work on an RVand the RV guys don't work on something iver 10 years old.At this point I think I need to drive it down to Freightliner in SC as my understanding is they will work on it.

Last year someone said it may be a clogged fuel filter. I climbed all over the engine and traced the fuel line and I couldn't find a fuel filter anywhere. So, either I'm blind or my engine doesn't have one. Either way, I thought I had fixed it with the wiring but obviously not as my engine cut out multiple times today.
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Old 04-02-2023, 12:29 AM   #13
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i'd have tackled this problem first.
Does the engine like "zip I'm dead" or is it more of a "chug, chug, chug, plop...."

Your fuel filter is on the back of the coach, rear of the radiator. You can see it through the grill, really hard to miss.

There are a few electrical problems that will "chop" fuel and if I knew the answer I'd tell you in a heart beat.
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Old 04-02-2023, 06:09 AM   #14
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i'd have tackled this problem first.
Does the engine like "zip I'm dead" or is it more of a "chug, chug, chug, plop...."

Your fuel filter is on the back of the coach, rear of the radiator. You can see it through the grill, really hard to miss.

There are a few electrical problems that will "chop" fuel and if I knew the answer I'd tell you in a heart beat.
dickb

Well, I had tackled it and thought I had fixed it. Even did a 100 mile run and it wasn't there so I thought it was fixed. I had previously created a thread about it.

The back of the radiator I have a fuel water separator which I replaced. The Catapillar manual talks about a fuel filter on the left side of the engine block but I couldn't find it.

When it cuts out it just goes dead immediately. Sometimes it will restart just with engine speed. Other times it will coast and restart after a few minutes.
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Old 04-02-2023, 10:58 AM   #15
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I'm not familiar with CAT engines, don't even know if they have 2 fuel filters or not. I doubt it is a fuel issue or you would have noticed reduced power also.
Have you closely inspected the wiring around/to the ECM: yet? Your description sounds like a loose connection or a break in a wire under the insulation.


Then again; I once had a sudden shutdown problem, which turned out to be a loose connection on the exterior firewall, where the entire dash obtained 12V. It was a loose nut on a cable from the 12V power center for the chassis. But I have a different MH and chassis.
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Old 04-02-2023, 12:26 PM   #16
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I'm not familiar with CAT engines, don't even know if they have 2 fuel filters or not. I doubt it is a fuel issue or you would have noticed reduced power also.
Have you closely inspected the wiring around/to the ECM: yet? Your description sounds like a loose connection or a break in a wire under the insulation.


Then again; I once had a sudden shutdown problem, which turned out to be a loose connection on the exterior firewall, where the entire dash obtained 12V. It was a loose nut on a cable from the 12V power center for the chassis. But I have a different MH and chassis.

I hear you. Pretty sure it is an electrical issue with the sudden shutdown and all. Not sure where the ECM is located but it may be something around that dash as I'm pretty sure the dash goes dark for a second when it happens. This is why I changed out a bunch of iffy looking cables. If it is a wire to the dash and I can find it, that would be amazing. I'll crawl around under there and check all the wires to the relays and fuses in the front.
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Old 04-03-2023, 05:24 PM   #17
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The ECM should be near or on the engine, as long wire runs invite interference and other problems.
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Old 04-14-2023, 07:09 PM   #18
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So, I was unable to locate wherever the electrical fault is coming from. It was a scary trip home especially with two small kids and never knowing when it will shut off.

Today, I dropped it off at Freightliner Custom Chassis. They said if it is an engine issue they won't work on it and I have to take it to Catapillar. My local Catapillar won't work on anything over ten years old so lets hope its not an engine issue.

I also asked them to inspect and lube the chassis, flush the coolant, and replace the transmission fluid since I don't know when it was last done. Obviously, those are secondary issues as I need the engine to not randomly cut out on me.
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Old 04-15-2023, 01:18 AM   #19
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Help: 2003 Journey no power on ignition off!

That was the original post heading.
(you may have problems in the switch still)

If your ignition switch is intermittent and going onoff that will "believe it or not" shut your engine off.

You might stop looking at the $30,000 problem and look under the dash for a bad wire/connection.

That would be a pleasant surprise, eh.
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Old 04-15-2023, 06:37 AM   #20
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Help: 2003 Journey no power on ignition off!

That was the original post heading.
(you may have problems in the switch still)

If your ignition switch is intermittent and going onoff that will "believe it or not" shut your engine off.

You might stop looking at the $30,000 problem and look under the dash for a bad wire/connection.

That would be a pleasant surprise, eh.
dickb

Thanks, that problem was solved due to me not connecting two cables that I had disconnected when I winterized.

The other issue is ongoing and started about a year ago. On the suggestion of this forum, I replaced a bunch of old looking ground and power cables, dug under the dash and resat any wires that looked iffy, resat all the relays in the fuse box, and examined the engine for any loose wires or bad grounds.
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