Yet another solenoid bites the dust! - Page 6

DriVer · 11-13-2008, 08:10 AM

Nice!

ChasA · 11-13-2008, 04:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'm having a hard time understanding how I was able to get the solenoid to get the house batteries to start charging by hitting the boost switch with the engine running. With the key in the run position 12 volts already should have been going to the coil? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have exactly the same thing going on. The only things I can think of are:
1. A bad connection somewhere in the run circuit to the solenoid, causing reduced current.
2. The solenoid is binding internally and the extra current is overcoming it -- eventually.

My solenoid is different than the ones everyone has been talking about, it's much smaller (looks like a Ford starter relay, metal can). But it is extremely difficult to access. It is in a very small compartment above the propane tank, and it is inside a box on the side of the compartment, and it is covered by a metal cover and then a metal plate that has all the DC circuit breakers mounted to it. After finally getting access to the relay, I have to use a mirror to see it.
If I can I will try to get some voltage and current measurements on the coil with the engine running.

John_Canfield · 11-13-2008, 05:17 PM

Like Mark and I said earlier, it is most likely due to a slow accumulation of crust on the contacts caused by arcing when the relay is operated. You could have a voltage problem at the coil, but every solenoid failure I have heard about on this forum has been due to the solenoid itself failing.

I partially disassembled one of mine that went bad and there was no obvious mechanical binding.

Morgueman · 05-30-2010, 01:05 PM

I'm an extreme electronics novice; therefore, I beg for your simply-stated response. I have a 2008 Winnebago Voyage 32H (ie. gas engine). I go out to fire-up the engine for our Memorial Day / Anniversary get-away without the kids, and the engine won't start (ie. no cranking, no clicking, just absolute silence), radio won't working, no headlights, etc. Furthermore, my entire 12V system isn't functioning, unless I plug into shore power. I checked the four house batteries and the starting battery, and they're all showing 12+ volts. I had a mobile RV tech guy come out, and he tells me that I have two bad solenoids, which he confirmed because there's no output voltage from either one of them.

Does this seem like a reasonable diagnosis? I'd hate to be taken for a ride by the RV tech guy, but he's looking at charging me $420 ($125 for each of two solenoids, $85 for one hour of work, and $85 for the service call).

Thanks so much,
Eric

Lt46 · 05-30-2010, 07:09 PM

That's a reasonable diagnosis given what you've told us. Replacement of the solenoid is not very difficult, access may be the challenge. FYI, whenever I touch the wiring in my motorhome I take a digital snapshot first. This ensures the reconnection goes well.
As fas as cost, the labor sounds OK, but the cost for parts seems high to me. Get the numbers off your solenoids and google it. I think you'll get a better idea of their price.

John Hilley · 05-30-2010, 08:53 PM

There is something wrong with his diagnosis. Neither the battery isolation solenoid or the battery disconnect solenoid should prevent the engine from starting. And they shouldn't cost that much, possibly the battery disconnect solenoid would, but not the battery isolation solenoid. Both solenoids can be by passed by jumping with a large enough cable. I would check all battery connections including the chassis grounding point.

Morgueman · 05-31-2010, 09:30 AM

I'm extremely close to nailing this down. This morning, I used jumper cables to directly connect the positive chassis battery terminal with a stud where cables going to the chassis, generator, and levelers originate from, and the engine started right up! It appears that the normal path is for the positive chassis battery cable to connect with a solenoid (which is then bridged to a Battery Disconnect Relay) and then a cable from this Relay connects back to the stud with the cables going to the chassis, generator, and levelers. So I figure that the problem must be with the solenoid or the Battery Disconnect Relay. I used a voltmeter to determine that there is electrical power going into (and out of) the solenoid (Trombetta brand), and then there is electrical power at the end of the bridge cable going into the Battery Disconnect Relay. HOWEVER, there is no power coming out of the Battery Disconnect Relay. So I'm pretty sure the Battery Disconnect Relay is stuck in the open position. The weird thing is...There is a second, exact same, Battery Disconnect Relay in this compartment that isn't connected to anything...It's almost like Winnebago expected that the first one would go out pretty quickly and so they provided a second one. I looked online and found that these Battery Disconnect Relays go for mid $50 dollars. So I need to have a talk with the mobile RV mechanic who is charging me $250 for two "solenoids."

John Hilley · 05-31-2010, 09:40 AM

What chassis do you have? I think you are back feeding the chassis with your jumper cable. You are feeding the chassis from the chassis side of the battery isolation solenoid and are doing with a jumper cable what would normally be done with the boost switch (paralleling both batteries with momentary switch) chassis battery should connect with starter directly and only be connected to house battery with engine running and isolation relay closed or isolation relay closed by momentary "boost" switch while starting.

Morgueman · 05-31-2010, 11:59 AM

John - I have the Ford V10. Hopefully, you're not saying that I did any damage.

I'm now thinking that the reason I have two Battery Disconnect Relays is that I have a House Battery Disconnect rocker-type switch as well as a Chassis Battery Disconnect rocker-type switch (I no longer think that Winnebago was preparing me for failure of one Battery Disconnect Relay - that was a silly thought). However, I'm confused by only seeing thin yellow wires going to what I think is the House Battery Disconnect Relay, and so I'm not sure how this device returns the flow of electricity to the 12V circuit. In contrast, the Chassis Battery Disconnect Relay has a "big" wire going to it from the chassis battery, and another "big" wire leaving it going back to the stud where the chassis and leveler cables originate from. Furthermore, another cable that leaves the House Battery Disconnect Relay which is connected to the circuit breaker is loosely attached to the Relay with a washer on the end of the cable, but there's no nut holding it tightly on. Strange!

Would love more comments from you folks!

Thanks,
Eric

Jim · 05-31-2010, 02:37 PM

hi..my battery boost never worked..had to remove the entry step and jump it when the engine battery went several years ago..i figured if i have to jump the battery every 4 years or so it was not worth worring about..now am i missing something greater..thanks..jim..

John Hilley · 05-31-2010, 04:16 PM

Eric,

You wouldn't have done any damage. I would start by putting a nut on that stud with just the washer, might be most of the problem. Winnebago had never had a chassis battery disconnect on gas motor homes, they may may have done so in 2008 however. I will look at your wiring diagram.

John Hilley · 05-31-2010, 04:30 PM

Eric,

You do have a chassis battery disconnect solenoid. You also have a chassis battery disconnect lock out relay. Here is a link to the 12 volt chassis diagram. It looks like you should have large red cables jumpering between the three relays.

2008 Voyage chassis 12 volt wiring diagram

Morgueman · 06-04-2010, 08:53 PM

An RV mechanic evaluated my battery disconnect system and determined that the disconnect switches and the solenoids were fine; therefore, the Intellitec circuit board must be the problem, and this would be very expensive to repair. So he connected the positive post of the chassis battery to a $25 aftermarket disconnect switch, which was then connected to the "hot" stud where cables for the levelers, engine, and return from the "battery boost" solenoid. Everything seems to work fine, but it would have been nice to use the original rocker-type (for the chassis battery) that's located in the entry area instead of this aftermarket switch. One last thing that is odd...The green LED in the coach disconnect rocker-switch won't go on; however, the switch works perfectly.

Thanks everyone!
Eric

John Hilley · 06-04-2010, 09:04 PM

I think you got another bad diagnosis. If you look at the diagram, there isn't any Intellitec board. There is a Chassis Battery Disconnect Relay, which would only be a couple of dollars. A Workhorse repair center could probably diagnose it correctly. How much did you have to pay for this fix?

Morgueman · 06-04-2010, 11:24 PM

The first guy, who charged me $295 has bailed and is not returning any voicemails or emails. The second guy charged me $475 to do a bunch of continuity testing, and everything checked out; therefore, "it must be the circuit board." I'm just sick of thinking about this whole thing, and I'm not calling anyone else to work on it; however, one of these days, I might try to re-wire it myself and spend a few bucks with new relays. For now, I'm going to leave it as-is, because everything seems to be working.

John Hilley · 06-05-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hilley

I think you got another bad diagnosis. If you look at the diagram, there isn't any Intellitec board. There is a Chassis Battery Disconnect Relay, which would only be a couple of dollars. A Workhorse repair center could probably diagnose it correctly. How much did you have to pay for this fix?

I should have said "Ford" repair center. Did either RV mechanic use the Winnebago schematic diagram I sent a link to. The whole circuit in question is on page 14.

Morgueman · 06-05-2010, 11:13 PM

Yes, we did use the wiring diagram...Thanks. It was good for correcting the wiring that the first guy apparently had miswired.

Out N About · 12-14-2020, 01:31 PM

Thanks MrTransistor, for the diagram. I ordered the Trombetta with the silver contacts, a 6 position terminal strip and a 10 pack of diodes. I daisy-chained the diodes on the terminal strip and mounted to the box frame. Because I didn't want my ECM to lose it's mind, I left the chassis battery connected, covered my tools with electrical tape and nervously swapped it out in 30 minutes. The solenoid wouldn't pull in with the diode across the 12 volt terminals (for protecting against the back EMF), but since the original set-up didn't have one, I guess I'll take my chances. Since there is no Radio Shack nearby, I used 10SQ050 10A 50V Schottky Rectifiers Diodes, which seemed to be equivalent. Thanks again, and safe travels.