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Old 04-29-2008, 10:16 AM   #21
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Unfortunately the price of lead is at an all time high. The more lead you have the more capacity in AH you have. If you look at the weight of batteries it is a good indication of their capacity.

Weather you go 6 or 12 volt is probably dependent upon your space as noted above. AGM batteries that are available, in general are lower capacity than wet cell and they cost significantly more but also can be put on their side. You can make an Excel spreadsheet and calculate $/AH to help balance cost per AH achieved.

For me since I had the room I choose the J185H's from Trojan. They have the footprint of a 31 but are much taller. They weigh 115#'s each. I can put 3 of these suckers in and have the AH that normally would require 6 6v in the same price range which would require some creative modifications on my part.

You can get high AH rating 6v batteries, greater than 400 aH each but they are very pricy - and very heavy.

What I would suggest is to buy quality - Trojan, Discover and Lifeline are high quality brands.

You can also buy batteries direct from the distributor. They will deliver to your door.
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:32 AM   #22
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If you are having your batteries fail with only a short service life, you need to look at your use and storage management. The odds are very good that the problem is not with the make, model, or voltage of your batteries but rather with how you take care of them.

Watch out for the snake oil - "true deep cycle' and '6 volt' and 'golf cart' are highly correlated with marketing gimmicks that lack solid basis (or even effective definition of terms). They may have meant something forty years ago but not so much today.

See Basic battery guidelines for some other ideas about how to get the most from your battery bank.
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:51 AM   #23
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Many thanks to all --- this is great advice!
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:33 PM   #24
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BryanL:

Watch out for the snake oil - "true deep cycle' and '6 volt' and 'golf cart' are highly correlated with marketing gimmicks that lack solid basis (or even effective definition of terms). They may have meant something forty years ago but not so much today.


Here some definitions for you:

"Deep Cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need."

6 volts is 6 of these: a volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power.

Golf cart:a small, electric, carlike vehicle designed to carry two golfers and their golf clubs around a golf course.

I think these definitions were true 40 years ago and will be true forty years from now.
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:58 PM   #25
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yep. I know that some are emotionally attached to those snake oil terms. The defensive response should say a lot about just how 'snake oil' these terms are. Note that it gets to pulling things out of context - the context being the batteries available for nominal RV use. Your RV is not a golf cart!

Fact is that modern batteries don't use solid lead plates anymore. Go take a few apart and see! (or read some of the links in the reference I provided).

Fact is that all lead acid batteries will suffer if discharged more than 50% as a routine thing. see BatteryUniversity.com

Fact is that there is very little difference between SLI batteries and those intended for RV or marine use - the differences are matters of degree rather than kind. See any line card from a battery manufacturer.

The Az Wind Sun FAQ notes that the term "golf cart battery" really only means a battery size - contrast that to how the term is often used in these discussions.

The Exide battery comparison chart defines 'deep cycle' as a battery that only handles small currents. The fact is that there isn't anything you can find on a typical RV battery spec sheet that will tell you whether or not it meets anyone's definition of "deep cycle".

The lesson is that there are myths that are deeply held - and wrong. That means that there is a lot of bad advice being strongly pushed. You can probably get by going along with it but a better decision will be made if you understand the basis of anything suggested and how it can actually be measured and seen in a battery specification. You also should be very careful to make sure that the benefits or measures are indeed applicable to what you want to do and how you do it.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:01 PM   #26
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I had the workaholic batteries delivered with my 2005 Winnebago Vectra and had nothing but trouble. I contacted Interstate and was told by Gary that they were discontinued months before and he could not believe my new coach had them in it. The dealer replaced them with the series 29 which Gary told me would be less trouble. After problems with them I replaced them with 4 6 volt Trojan T105's that fit on the tray and I was able to use all the existing battery cables without adding any.
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #27
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Your own link AZ Windsun disagrees with much of what you say:
Quote:
Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).
Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need.
Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up the true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.
Marine batteries are usually actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries,though a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the term deep cycle is sometimes overused. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not much of an option.
Unquote:

I am sure that most RVers understand that a high capacity deep cycle battery defined by a high 20 hour AH rating, thicker plates and increased weight and that this type of battery is substantially different then the high discharge rate low AH rating of a starting battery. These types of deep cycle batteries are found in battery operated golf carts and floor machines that require high capacity storage.

IN A Cell:
PbO2 + Pb + 2H2SO4 <-> 2PbSO4 + 2H2o (2.041v)

Basic chemistry: The more lead the more capacity because the thicker the plate and lower ratio of surface area with more lead the slower the reaction and the higher the capacity. The thinner the plate and the greater it's surface area versus the amount of lead the faster the reaction and the higher the discharge.

One must remember that battery capacity varies inversely with discharge rate. Lower discharge rates result in a higher capacity whereas lower discharge rate result in a higher capacity.

Walla the differences between the SLI battery and the deep cycle battery. One is designed for speed and low number of charge/discharge cycles and the other is designed for capacity and a high number of charge/discharge cycles. Not snake oil but science.

Where to find industrial strength high AH deep cycle batteries - look at what is used in golf carts and floor machines by the major high end battery manufacturers such as Trojan, Surrette and Concorde. Their deep cycle batteries are designed for heavy duty multiple discharge use.

Sorry but a golf cart is a golf cart not a battery size as you and windsun imply. Trojan has some 17 different batteries of several different sizes for them one of which is the oft copied T105. You buy from a discount store you get what you buy they are not a battery dealer.

RV spec sheet: now what the heck does that have to do with anything. We are talking about deep cycle batteries because the individual wants a deep cycle battery for his application. Remember he is upgrading.

The myths occur in your writing and in the discount stores. If you want to buy a quality battery by a high quality brand from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer for the purpose you are interested in.
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Old 05-02-2008, 05:01 PM   #28
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Is there any problem with replacing the wet cell house batteries with AGM's and leaving the chassis batteries as are? Is it really necessary to make the switch changes on the Dimensions 2000 inverter? One battery dealer told me that as long as there is a three stage charger in the unit it should be all set and good to go.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:05 AM   #29
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try the interstae srm 29 just a tad smaller in size but seem to hold up better.these are what my distributer suggested
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:01 PM   #30
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lthrnk:
Is there any problem with replacing the wet cell house batteries with AGM's and leaving the chassis batteries as are? Is it really necessary to make the switch changes on the Dimensions 2000 inverter? One battery dealer told me that as long as there is a three stage charger in the unit it should be all set and good to go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your battery dealer is ill informed. Download the battery use instructions sheet from the manufacturer. Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries need a higher charging voltage then flooded batteries which need a higher charging voltage then gelled electrolyte batteries. The so called "finishing charge" is done at the manufacturers recommended absorption charge voltage. The absorption charge voltage is used to top off the battery to it's highest capacity. Using the flooded battery charge voltages on an AGM battery will only shorten the useful life of the battery slightly but the reverse is not true. If you accidentally use the AGM charging settings on a flooded battery you will "boil it out" in a short time. Another difference is that AGM batteries are never subjected to equalizing charge voltages as flooded batteries are. AGM batteries are freeze proof, spill proof, acceptable in limited quantities on passenger aircraft... For deep cycle low maintenance use they are the most cost effective battery type presently available. ONLY YOU CAN DECIDE IF THEY ARE WORTH THE EXTRA COSTS! If you are a person who can develop and stick to a regular maintenance schedule like a cloistered monk does to his prayer routine then you can save money by using flooded lead acid deep cycle batteries in your set up. If you cannot stick to a maintenance schedule like it was a religion then pay the additional money for the AGM batteries.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:52 PM   #31
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Most newer chargers will have a specific switch on the charger for charging AGM batteries or will otherwise specify how to do so. If not you will have to replace your charger if you go to AGM. AGM batteries also can run on during charging - not good.

It's basically a preference. AGM's cost more than an equal wet cell and tend to have less capacity so your cost per AH ($/AH) is considerably higher. A high quality wet cell is more cost effective on an AH basis if properly maintained. AGM' have some very useful benefits as described above.

A high quality AGM battery can often cost twice as much as a similarly sized high capacity wet acid deep cycle and if both are well maintained probably have similar life expectancies.

Whereas wet cells can be maintained by several procedures AGM's can not, they are basically sealed. Wether this is an advantage or not is your decision.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:02 PM   #32
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Your own link AZ Windsun disagrees with much of what you say: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
like I said, so deeply attached ....

context context context!

if you don't keep in mind just what it is someone is talking about you can certainly find that things don't fit.

For me, the context is RV batteries. Not alternative household energy systems, not golf carts, not forklifts - RV's.

The reference is the battery specification sheet.

Yes indeed you'll find a lot of words about SLI versus 'deep cycle' but you won't find much of a match between those words and the spec sheet.

And then, as I suggested, those words also tend to not reflect what you see when you look at the insides of a battery.

So far, I have seen nobody of any repute recommend that any lead acid battery typically used in RV's (context again) be deeply discharged (below 50% SoC) -- which makes all the brouhaha about deep cycle meaningless in this context.

I think you will also find that the typical RV battery needs to be able to handle significant currents like SLI batteries - you'll see this in the CCA ratings.

As the quote says - "It is sometimes hard to tell, as the term deep cycle is sometimes overused" - and this is what I am trying to point out as well.

If you look at the line cards you will see that capacity all up and down the line is about 22 watt hours per pound. All this bullhooey about plate thickness and deep cycle and so on have very little to do with it. The variances are in the trade-offs between cost, capacity, and longevity and not between any marketing labels applied.

re "Sorry but a golf cart is a golf cart not a battery size as you and windsun imply" - what I suggest you do is to provide an authoritative definition for this. Like many of these terms I have noted, there is nothing in a spec that meets how these terms are so often (mis)used. -- Besides, your RV is not a golf cart.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you want to buy a quality battery by a high quality brand from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer for the purpose you are interested in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We've got some agreement here. If you buy your batteries from a reputable dealer who stands behind what he sells, you'll get a high quality brand.

I do think it is important to look at the 'debate' as closely held views that cannot be supported by rational arguments or hard data yet are extensively argued indicate a realm where great care is needed if good decision making is desired. When it comes to things like the 6v vs 12v, golf cart, deep cycle, and so on, what I suggest is a simple and reasonable request to source an effective and relevant definition and measure for them. I have yet to see any definitions that aren't either totally made up or totally disconnected from reliable measure commonly available for batteries in an RV context.

My point is that a lot of words don't make up for irrelevant nonsense that is poorly defined. They should be avoided if you want to make good decisions.
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:15 PM   #33
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BryanL

The chemistry of the wet cell battery is well understood as is also how to design a battery to provide certain specific benefits. This wet cell chemistry and design is the definition of what the battery is and is what they use to produce a spec sheet. Wether a manufacturer chooses to follow this is their prerogative. What information they provide in their spec sheets is their prerogative as is it's accuracy. Whether you choose to understand anything is your prerogative but this does not mean that others also share to do son with you. Spec sheets from high quality reputable battery manufacturers do list the appropriate information with regards to deep cycle batteries. Many high quality manufactures of deep cycle batteries only make deep cycle batteries such as Trojan, Rolls Surette, Concord etc.

The function of a battery in one use can have similar functions in other uses for exampe the golf cart and the RV.

I presented the balanced equation for a wet cell lead acid battery. Can't get much more basic or definitive than that. If you understand chemistry, which you apparently don't, you would be able to understand that with increasing amounts of reactants i.e. lead you will have increasing amounts of the reactants - in this case electrical power. A lead acid battery that weighs 130 pounds will provide more capacity wether CCA or AH than a similarly lead acid battery that weighs 50 pounds.

SLI batteries have a design based on the lead acid chemical reaction which optimizes the rapid availability of current expressed as CCA's. SLI batteries always list in their specs CCA's. They are not designed for multiple discharges i.e. deep cycle. They rarely include a 20 AH rating since this is not the purpose or function for which they have been designed. This design is accomplished by increasing the amount of surface area being available. Basic laws of physics state the more surface area the greater the rate of the reaction. This is because you are only going to get a reaction if the particles of the reactant solid collide with the liquid reactant. Increasing the surface area of the solid increases the chances of collision taking place.


Deep cycle batteries on the other hand are not designed for rapid discharge but for slow discharge over long periods and multiple numbers of these discharges. This discharge is rated in AH at 20 hours. All reputable deep cycle batteries have a 20 AH rating and rarely a CCA rating since it is irrelevant for the battery's design and purpose. This is accomplished by increasing the mass of lead versus the surface area. A golf cart does not need a battery with high CCA's but it does need a battery which has a high 20 AH rating, can be deeply discharged and then recharged repeatedly without failure.

An individual can then use this information to pick the type of battery he wants for his purposes in his RV. If the individual wants a battery with a high AH rating, can withstand many discharges and recharges then perhaps if he wants a really big battery he can look to other similar application, i.e. the gold cart pr the floor scrubber which require really big high quality batteries.

If one were to take the chassis SLI battery and to use it in the coach to supply 12v power for a long period of time and then after deep discharge try to recharge this battery many times they would soon be unhappy because the battery will soon fail. This battery is not designed for this but it will provide the amps to start the engine.

On the other hand if they were to take a high quality deep cycle battery from the coach, which they normally use to provide 12v power for long periods, often is deeply discharged with multiple charges required after such discharges and for which it is well designed then the would most likely be quite unhappy when that same battery could not provide the CCA to start their MH engine.

Thus the differences between the SLI and the deep cycle battery and what to look for in a battery for your purpose. BryanL has stated there is no difference between a deep cycle and SLI battery, that deep cycle batteries do not exist, that battery weight is not an important factor, that a chemical reaction does not define, that the laws of physics do not exist or are unimportant, that a gold cart is hard to define so let him buy his SLI batteries for boondocking.

For me I chose 3 Trojan J185H 12v, 215 AH, 120# deep cycle floor machine batteries for a total 645 AH in a 20x21x26" space. I maintain them very well and expect many years of service. Similar batteries from similar quality manufacturers will provide similar service but don't expect them to be very good at starting engines. I don't know what Bryan has.
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:18 AM   #34
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All the above, informed discussion considers, battery types, sizes, capacities, etc.
What about the solar maintainer? Are changes needed there too? For instance, how does a change from flooded to AGM types effect solar charging??
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:05 AM   #35
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All that would be needed is to adjust the charge controller to the voltages specified by the battery manufacturer. With any quality charge controller the task is a trivial one.
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