After installing two Lithionics batteries in our 2021 Navion, I have been able to monitor them individually and I found that the SOC on one would be lower by up to 40% than the other one. I thought initially that the problem was with one of the batteries. Further investigation showed that the problem is with the wiring of the Navion that is resulting in DC appliances and loads to be hitting one of the batteries instead of both equally.
Prior to test with oven on
Battery #1 139AH
Battery #2 218AH
After running oven on
Battery #1 148AH
Battery #2 228AH
Inverter is drawing equally from both batteries so it is the other DC loads that are pulling more from Battery #2 which shows that it has provided 80AH more than Battery #1 or half again as much DV volts demand.
The gap became greater when I ran the Norcold 10 DC only fridge for several days. So at least I know to ignore the inverter draw from the batteries and focus on everything else.
With the factory lead acid batteries I would have been clueless about this unequal draw so upgrading to the Lithionics batteries was worthwhile in providing information on the state of both house batteries.
Has anyone else encountered this with their two battery installation?Has anyone else encountered this with their two battery installation?
I reported the unequal discharging to Lichtsinn, and they've seen a variance in the SOC of the Lithionics batteries, and it doesn't necessarily indicate there is a problem.
I've asked them to check charging from the chassis and solar panels during our April maintenance.
50% variance in the discharge and amounting to 50 AH of charge capacity is a problem. Running the DC fridge for several days takes one battery to 20% SOC with the existing setup and so running the generator to recharge this one battery is a concern for dry camping with the RV.
If Lichtsinn says there is not a problem it tells me that they know it is happening and simply are clueless about how to fix it. Best to tell a customer not to worry and hope they go away. Sadly most of the time businesses get away with blowing offf their customers in this manner.
Further, the goal to equalize goes beyond one battery bank being "equal" to the other.
What battery configuration do you have?
What ever you have, all FLA batteries have 2.2V/cell and as this voltage drops (and charges) you want it to be even. If it's not even then one cell is working against the other and sooner or later you will short one cell out.
In fact, this may be why you are having trouble now.
I would use an Hydrometer to measure the electrolyte in each cell to get a rough idea of what you are dealing with per cell.
You also need to verify your positive and negative cables are positioned as far away as possible. I.e., be sure you don't have a load tapping the center of your battery bank.
...And don't let these guy off the hook. They are not treating you right based on what you have shared.
After installing two Lithionics batteries in our 2021 Navion, I have been able to monitor them individually and I found that the SOC on one would be lower by up to 40% than the other one. I thought initially that the problem was with one of the batteries. Further investigation showed that the problem is with the wiring of the Navion that is resulting in DC appliances and loads to be hitting one of the batteries instead of both equally.
Prior to test with oven on
Battery #1 139AH
Battery #2 218AH
After running oven on
Battery #1 148AH
Battery #2 228AH
Inverter is drawing equally from both batteries so it is the other DC loads that are pulling more from Battery #2 which shows that it has provided 80AH more than Battery #1 or half again as much DV volts demand.
The gap became greater when I ran the Norcold 10 DC only fridge for several days. So at least I know to ignore the inverter draw from the batteries and focus on everything else.
With the factory lead acid batteries I would have been clueless about this unequal draw so upgrading to the Lithionics batteries was worthwhile in providing information on the state of both house batteries.
Has anyone else encountered this with their two battery installation?Has anyone else encountered this with their two battery installation?
Can you post a picture of your battery bay wiring?
This is what our bay looks like - plus the recommended wiring diagram from Lichtsinn for our 24D.
Our Lithionics batteries were installed with the +/- posts reversed, so the diagram doesn't match the picture. Lichtsinn reviewed the picture and confirmed that's how the wiring should look after the lithium upgrade.
Also, Winnebago's diagram shows an extra fuse for the factory leveling system - since we had HWH install our system after factory, the leveling system fuse isn't in the battery box.
When we go to Lichtsinn for our annual service and warranty work in April, I plan to review the wiring and charging in more detail - we're seeing a slight imbalance between the two batteries, no charging from the chassis engine while driving, and we appear to be getting less charging than expected from the solar panels.
At least what we have now is working - charging correctly from generator and shore power - and we've been able to boondock over a weekend without plugging in.
I was relieved to realize that I did not have a defective Lithionics battery and that the inverter wiring is working as it should to the two batteries. I now suspect that there is too much resistance with the X wiring and so the majority of the 12v DC demand is hitting one of the batteries, as when the DC fridge is running.
It sure would be nice if Winnebago labeled its connectors and wiring in the battery compartment as is commonly done with boats selling at the price range of the Navion/View motorhomes but evidently they can't be bothered and prefer to focus on the cosmetics.
I have a Fluke DC amp no contact meter arriving on Monday and then will continue with my troubleshooting of the Navion wiring. Based on what I saw with Guaranty RV and have heard about Lichtsinn I am quite doubtful that Winnebago's dealers have people with the expertise necessary to do this.
I should mention that J.R. at offthegridrvs.com and Stephen Tartaglia the general manager of Lithionics Battery have been extremely helpful throughout this process.
This is what our bay looks like - plus the recommended wiring diagram from Lichtsinn for our 24D.
Our Lithionics batteries were installed with the +/- posts reversed, so the diagram doesn't match the picture. Lichtsinn reviewed the picture and confirmed that's how the wiring should look after the lithium upgrade.
Also, Winnebago's diagram shows an extra fuse for the factory leveling system - since we had HWH install our system after factory, the leveling system fuse isn't in the battery box.
When we go to Lichtsinn for our annual service and warranty work in April, I plan to review the wiring and charging in more detail - we're seeing a slight imbalance between the two batteries, no charging from the chassis engine while driving, and we appear to be getting less charging than expected from the solar panels.
At least what we have now is working - charging correctly from generator and shore power - and we've been able to boondock over a weekend without plugging in.
I see your batteries are reversed from mine, but other than that the wiring does match what I have, except I have the third fuse due to factory leveling. It matches the qinnebago wiring diagrams.
I was relieved to realize that I did not have a defective Lithionics battery and that the inverter wiring is working as it should to the two batteries. I now suspect that there is too much resistance with the X wiring and so the majority of the 12v DC demand is hitting one of the batteries, as when the DC fridge is running.
It sure would be nice if Winnebago labeled its connectors and wiring in the battery compartment as is commonly done with boats selling at the price range of the Navion/View motorhomes but evidently they can't be bothered and prefer to focus on the cosmetics.
I have a Fluke DC amp no contact meter arriving on Monday and then will continue with my troubleshooting of the Navion wiring. Based on what I saw with Guaranty RV and have heard about Lichtsinn I am quite doubtful that Winnebago's dealers have people with the expertise necessary to do this.
I should mention that J.R. at offthegridrvs.com and Stephen Tartaglia the general manager of Lithionics Battery have been extremely helpful throughout this process.
offthegridrvs has been great as well to me. I ended up ordering lithionics through them. Your wiring diagram is the same as mine, and I spent a bunch of time tracing wires in the winnebago diagrams, that yours matches the diagram xactly. I still cannot explain the difference in battery draw down. Based on the wiring, and that everything is in parallel, I can;t explain whey draw is uneven either. The coach 12V as you said seems to be your problem. The smaller gauge wire for that is attached to the opposite positive terminal of your inverter, but the jumper wire between both terminals is larger gauge, so it should not have more resistance. J.R. did mention that the tightness of the terminal connections is very important to get right. Perhaps something is a little loose and so flow could be affected.
question: Does your wiring include the extra 4 small gauge wires in a bundle for the xantrex combiner as seen in the factory lithium install?
Lithionics batteries are lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries not lithium polymer (LiPo). And yes they are quite different.
Thanks. I'm totally aware of the lithionics chemestry - just using LiPo for short. Lithium Polymer are not a standard 12v deep cycle option. More suited for cell phones or small rechargeables. I guess that LiFePo might be more correct, but I and plenty of others just call them LiPo.
__________________
2017 Winnebago Adventurer 37F
2016 Lincoln MKX Toad
Have you tried to measure the voltage between each terminal and its attached cable connector when running high current to see if there is a high contact resistance?
I just bought a Fluke 362 clamping amp meter and I will be using it to trace current flow in the battery cables after the weather clears up. The Fluke is accurate to within 2% and has a resolution of 0.1A and should provide me with information as to where there is draw on the batteries. A volt meter is worthless with this type of battery, actually for most batteries.
My guess at this point is that there is much higher resistance with the #1 battery and so more current is flowing from the #2 battery as a result. Need the Fluke to verify this. Most likely culprit would be a bad cable terminal but I prefer no to take everything apart to go over everything with an Ohm meter at this stage and it could be a something else entirely.
In reading your story, it seems quite a puzzle. Two batteries in parallel would continuously equalize their declining charge. So, as was mentioned, you'd posit a bad wire or connector. Clearly you've visited that.
One area that comes to my mind is that Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries have a much flatter voltage curve than a lead acid battery. Where charts for a lead acid tie tightly and easily the voltage to discharge percentile, LiFePO4's have a much narrower voltage fall range and a more hockey stick shaped decline at the end.
That begs the question, is the difference real?
By now, I'd expect your clamping amp meter has shown you actual flow from each battery, and so proved or disproved unequal discharge. That will be interesting to hear about.
__________________
Rick_99037
2005 Winnebago Sightseer 29R Class A
8.1 Workhorse - GM 4 speed
Hopefully your tests will isolate the problem. You'll never regret having the Fluke in your toolbox. After visual inspection and voltage checks, I would test both charge AND discharge. Unequal charge, discharge or both, the result is the same, an unequal SOC between the two batteries. The difference would be cumulative each day the batteries are not brought back to 100%, so even a small difference could add up over a week or more. I would start my test with both batteries at 100% SOC and run them down to test discharge. Make sure the Zamp, coach batt and shore power are all disconnected so they don't throw off your readings. Then test charging with solar.
I just bought a Fluke 362 clamping amp meter and I will be using it to trace current flow in the battery cables after the weather clears up. The Fluke is accurate to within 2% and has a resolution of 0.1A and should provide me with information as to where there is draw on the batteries. A volt meter is worthless with this type of battery, actually for most batteries.
My guess at this point is that there is much higher resistance with the #1 battery and so more current is flowing from the #2 battery as a result. Need the Fluke to verify this. Most likely culprit would be a bad cable terminal but I prefer no to take everything apart to go over everything with an Ohm meter at this stage and it could be a something else entirely.
Difference in resistance seems most likely to me as well. If the batteries are fine, then one of the cables may have a high resistance causing the issue.
Why do P4, P5 and P7 seem discolored with the yellow shrink wrap darkened? Perhaps those connections need cleaning or the crimps themselves may be questionable.
__________________
Neil V
2001 Winnebago Adventurer WFG35U
This is just a suggestion because it is hard to tell from the photos posted, but...
First thought and always, even though only two batteries are in parallel you must make certain all positive loads and charges attach to one battery and the most negative ground (to ground bolt) is on the other battery. The jumpers in between should be only jumpers to parallel the batteries and equal in load bearing, ie, length and gauge. My WGO View was not wired properly as I described at purchase. It matters, even with only two batteries. As noted before all connections must be clean and secure.
I use my Fluke clamp meter on the most negative ground to check loads and flow, record them on my phone (bluetooth model of Fluke). It will be tough to find the diff between flows on the jumpers.
Having said all that there are myriad possibilities for differences in charge state if the wiring is correct. Many times LiFeP04 batteries must be "reset" to start off the process equally and any one of the small cells can be a culprit.
__________________
Bill and Brenda + Mia
RIP Mobius - in our hearts 2018V24D, '13 Tiffin BR32, Tiffin 34TGA, '11 Aspect 30, 06View23H, '00 HHiker II 5W
Linear Mode
