Transitioning to LiFePO4 batteries and XM1000 Pro

[Gdneufeld]

Hello all,

I am brand new to this forum. I have a Navion Itasca 2015 24J. My house batteries need replacing and I want to transition to Lithium.

Will the Xantrex XM1000 Pro work with my existing system? Will my charging system work? I don't want to replace everything this year but also want to begin the process of upgrading to Lithium and better boondocking options with this initial upgrade. I know I will eventually want to add to the single solar panel and upgrade the existing converter and inverter.

Can I do this all in stages, or do I need to do everything at once?

[Caraita]

I believe you have to add up all the watts of everything you want to use at the same time to figure out the right inverter. example
AC 2200 watts
Computer 500 watts
Fridge 120 watts
Microwave 1200 watts
Lights 10 watts each
Heater 500 watts
Total up the items you think you will use at the same time and that will be what you need to use for inverter size. I am not an expert FYI

[Gdneufeld]

Thanks for responding. I guess I am less interested in knowing the sizing right now, and more about whether or not the XM1000 will function with Lithium batteries. I can upsize to required watts when I am forced to upgrade my inverter. I am hoping to just change out the batteries now and stepwise do other upgrades later. My question is whether or not the XM1000 can function with Lithium batteries.

[BobC]

I don't see any problems. The 1000XM Pro doesn't have a built-in battery charger so, as long as it's a 12V battery bank you're ready to go. It doesn't care whether the batteries are conventional lead acid, AGM or LiFePO4. The owner's manual mentions that the input voltage range is 11V - 15V DC which isn't a problem.

As near as I can tell from the manual, the battery status reading is a simple voltage reading not a % of charge reading. If it was a % of charge reading, it might not be accurate for LiFePO4 batteries.

https://productimageserver.com/liter...al/31358OM.pdf

You will need to confirm that your existing converter/charger is up to the task in terms of having a LiFEPO4 charging profile and you should read up on the complexities relating to charging from your chassis' alternator. You may need to install a DC to DC charger between the alternator and your house batteries. Here's something to get you started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcVjPap9dkY

[Gdneufeld]

Thank you! This is great news. Any worry about alternator issue with a lithium battery?

[Marine359]

If you plan on upgrading the charger and inverter, you may as well save yourself some time, some money, and some potential headache by just installing a hybrid inverter/charger. They work great, are programmable, and a 2000w model can charge your lithiums at 80amps or more when you get the new batteries. Doing everything at once makes installation easier, faster, and gives you the end result right out the chute. You can add solar later, but the inverter/charger and LiFePo4 should be done at the same time. A top brand inverter/charger will run you $800, and 200ah of premium LiFePo4 about $1,000. Add around $200 for cables, fuses, and shunt. When you’re done, you’ll be very glad you made the jump. It’s a weekend DIY for many.

[Gdneufeld]

Originally Posted by Marine359

If you plan on upgrading the charger and inverter, you may as well save yourself some time, some money, and some potential headache by just installing a hybrid inverter/charger. They work great, are programmable, and a 2000w model can charge your lithiums at 80amps or more when you get the new batteries. Doing everything at once makes installation easier, faster, and gives you the end result right out the chute. You can add solar later, but the inverter/charger and LiFePo4 should be done at the same time. A top brand inverter/charger will run you $800, and 200ah of premium LiFePo4 about $1,000. Add around $200 for cables, fuses, and shunt. When you’re done, you’ll be very glad you made the jump. It’s a weekend DIY for many.

Love all of this information! Thank you. Have you found any decent instructional sites or videos for this?

[Marine359]

Originally Posted by Gdneufeld

Love all of this information! Thank you. Have you found any decent instructional sites or videos for this?

Nope. Best source of info and instruction has been this forum.
I learned how to do the conversion from another Micro Minnie owner. I didn’t do the same as he did, but the basics are similar. Check in with owners who have the same rig as you. They’ll walk you through it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Gdneufeld

Thank you! This is great news. Any worry about alternator issue with a lithium battery?

Yes, definitely, that's why I posted the video and wrote:

"...you should read up on the complexities relating to charging from your chassis' alternator. You may need to install a DC to DC charger between the alternator and your house batteries."

In terms of instructional sites and videos, the web and forums, including Winnieowners and IRV2.com, Winnieowners abound with information. I can't point you to one or two that are the best. I can tell you that you should start reading as many posts as possible. Also, start educating yourself by watching some of Will Prowse's videos. Here are a ton of instructional videos, etc:

https://www.google.com/search?q=life...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The term "Lithium battery" covers a lot of different types, many which aren't suitable for RVs. Lithium Iron Phosphate aka LiFePO4 batteries is the type you should be considering.

You didn't say why you want to convert to LiFePO4 other than you were replacing your existing batteries. LiFePO4 batteries are great, with a lot of advantages, both short term and long term, but they're not for everyone. Do you spend a lot of time camping without shore power? If not you probably will be just fine with AGM batteries for less money and they're a simple, drop-in replacement other than tweaking the charge profile on your converter/charger.

The price of many LiFePO4 has dropped dramatically but quality can vary significantly so be extremely careful. I've mentioned Will Prowse's Youtube channel a couple of times and he has many videos in which he evaluates various brands, including a tear down which exposes hidden issues. He also publishes a list of low cost LiFePO4 batteries which have tested well, but it's somewhat out of date:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/li...batteries.html

You can also watch some of his teardowns here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...DwE0k40bpXZBQs

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you. Some will tell you that the conversion is a simple drop-in process. It can be, if your existing charger/converter is up to the task, you address the alternator charging issue, buy the right battery and understand the caveats about charging and using LiFePO4 batteries, especially in low temperatures. On the other hand, if you don't understand these issues, you can have problems.

I'm sure others will chime in with agreement and disagreement with my comments.

[Gdneufeld]

Originally Posted by BobC

Yes, definitely, that's why I posted the video and wrote:

"...you should read up on the complexities relating to charging from your chassis' alternator. You may need to install a DC to DC charger between the alternator and your house batteries."

In terms of instructional sites and videos, the web and forums, including Winnieowners and IRV2.com, Winnieowners abound with information. I can't point you to one or two that are the best. I can tell you that you should start reading as many posts as possible. Also, start educating yourself by watching some of Will Prowse's videos. Here are a ton of instructional videos, etc:

https://www.google.com/search?q=life...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The term "Lithium battery" covers a lot of different types, many which aren't suitable for RVs. Lithium Iron Phosphate aka LiFePO4 batteries is the type you should be considering.

You didn't say why you want to convert to LiFePO4 other than you were replacing your existing batteries. LiFePO4 batteries are great, with a lot of advantages, both short term and long term, but they're not for everyone. Do you spend a lot of time camping without shore power? If not you probably will be just fine with AGM batteries for less money and they're a simple, drop-in replacement other than tweaking the charge profile on your converter/charger.

The price of many LiFePO4 has dropped dramatically but quality can vary significantly so be extremely careful. I've mentioned Will Prowse's Youtube channel a couple of times and he has many videos in which he evaluates various brands, including a tear down which exposes hidden issues. He also publishes a list of low cost LiFePO4 batteries which have tested well, but it's somewhat out of date:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/li...batteries.html

You can also watch some of his teardowns here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...DwE0k40bpXZBQs

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you. Some will tell you that the conversion is a simple drop-in process. It can be, if your existing charger/converter is up to the task, you address the alternator charging issue, buy the right battery and understand the caveats about charging and using LiFePO4 batteries, especially in low temperatures. On the other hand, if you don't understand these issues, you can have problems.

I'm sure others will chime in with agreement and disagreement with my comments.

Bob, this is terrific!
We are very interested in boondocking 3 or so days at a time. My thoughts were that LiFeP04 batteries would make this easier and last longer with minimum upkeep on batteries. I will research as you suggest. Thank you again.

[Gdneufeld]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Nope. Best source of info and instruction has been this forum.
I learned how to do the conversion from another Micro Minnie owner. I didn’t do the same as he did, but the basics are similar. Check in with owners who have the same rig as you. They’ll walk you through it.

Thank you Jim.

[BobC]

One of the biggest factors is what kind of refrigerator you have. If you have an absorption refrigerator (propane/120V AC) you're power needs will be much less than if you have a residential refrigerator. A 12V compressor refrigerator will fall in between the two.

Personally, I'm on the fence re: LiFePO4 in terms of myself but I think it's the way to go for those who use their RVs a lot and frequently camp away from shore power for more than a few nights.

We've been able to boondock for several days at a time with two 6V golf cart batteries in two TTs (with 100W and 200W of solar). We now have a motorhome with two 6V GC batteries. I've contemplated converting to LiFePO4 and have been educating myself. Since our MH has pretty much been sidelined during Covid and due to some unrelated health issues, I'm glad I haven't had LiFePO4 batteries just sitting there.

Our power needs are relatively modest, we have an absorption refrigerator and don't use an inverter. I have 320W of solar that I've yet to install. When we boondock or dry camp, we think "camping" and reduce our power use accordingly.

[Marine359]

Bob,
If I had your setup, and your style of camping, there would be no good reason to switch to LiFePo4. unless you wanted to extend your number of consecutive boondocking days, or you fell in love with some of the other key features of LFP like high amperage fast charging.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Bob,
If I had your setup, and your style of camping, there would be no good reason to switch to LiFePo4. unless you wanted to extend your number of consecutive boondocking days, or you fell in love with some of the other key features of LFP like high amperage fast charging.

That's why I'm holding off. One thing I forgot to mention is that we have a hydraulic wheelchair lift that consumes 12V power but only for a couple of minutes at a time.

[Gdneufeld]

Great things to consider. We have a 3-way fridge. We might be fine with regular batteries.

Should we go with 2 6V golf batteries or just stay with the NAPA style?

[BobC]

You'll need to consider the space you have. Golf cart batteries are taller than "standard" batteries. Most of them are traditional flooded, lead acid (FLA) batteries and require regular maintenance. By "NAPA style" batteries I assume you mean the common "Marine/RV" FLA batteries normally supplied with RVs. Although they're typically referred to as "deep cycle" they are, in reality dual purpose deep cycle/starting batteries and are less effective than golf cart batteries or other forms of true deep cycle batteries. The giveaway is if the specs include CCA (cold cranking amps) in their specs. This is a "starting battery" spec.

Two FLA golf cart batteries such as those from Costco or Sam's Club will be the least expensive option at about $100 each. Two 210Ah 6v golf cart batteries, wired in series, will supply 210Ah at 12V. The downside is their height, about 10 7/8" and the need for regular maintenance. If you go the FLA golf cart route, I highly recommend that you consider a Flow-Rite RV two battery filling kit which makes this a much simpler and less messy task (buy the $32 squeeze bulb pump kit as well):

https://amazon.com/Flow-Rite-RV2000-...7-93deae8f9840

Alternatively, you can choose true deep cycle AGM batteries. These are more expensive at about $200 each. Two 110Ah 12V AGM batteries in parallel will supply 220Ah at 12V and don't require routine maintenance. 6V AGM batteries are available but are significantly more expensive in the same general range as many LiFePO4 batteries. Here's a link to the AGM deep cycle batteries I have in my van:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Gdneufeld]

I think this has been a valuable discussion. Thank you. I am leaning toward AGM. The expense and complication of lithium probably is not the best use of my funds. I can do the batteries... but the added complication of reworking my whole system is probably not worth it for the limited times we want an extended boondock experience. Thanks again.

[Marine359]

These days, the price of 200ah LiFePo4 is almost the same as 200ah AGM. If you’re planning a drop in replacement, you really don’t have to “rework” your whole system to accommodate LFP. You may need a new charger, and if you’re motorized, you’ll probably need to isolate the LFP from your alternator, or install a dc/dc controller. If you’re not planning on owning your rig for a long time, or if you don’t boondock often , LFP is not worth it. Just be aware that one of the biggest advantages to LFP is that you can charge them many times as fast as Lead Acid. Typically, 200ah of LFP can accept a 100amp charge, so they can go from zero to 100% SOC in just 2 hours. That’s joy for boondockers.

[Fanrgs]

We have a 2020 Navion 24V that came with a 2000w inverter, 200w of solar, two 12v lead-acid batteries, a 12v fridge, one induction cooktop, and, obviously a generator like the OPs. We now have 400w of solar and rwo drop-in replacement LiPO4 batteries. I assume his Navion 24J has the batteries under the step as ours does, so battery height may be a concern. I also assume that his interior lights are all LEDs. If not, that would be an inexpensive first step to reduce 12v loads.

With the propane/AC fridge, his 12v solar needs are not as great as ours. However, his 120v outlets are currently wired only to the shore power cable and the generator. He would need to wire the inverter into the 120v system or add separate inverted outlets. His current system is more like the one in the fifth wheel we sold in 2021. It came with a single 12v marine battery that I quickly replaced with two 6v, 215Ah AGM batteries. No solar, no generator, no 12v fridge, no inverter. We put 33,363 miles on that trailer and it had the same two AGM batteries in it when we sold it 6 years later. The only charging was from the truck alternator and the converter when on shore power. We dry camped and boondocked for 2-3 days at a time and never needed additional charging. But we also tended to drive several hundred miles after dry camping, so the batteries quickly recharged. Good 6v AGM batteries are perfect for primarily 12v camping when the air conditioner is not needed.

My advice to the OP before investing a lot of $$ is to buy a pair of the inexpensive Harbor Freight 100w solar panels with legs and an inexpensive MPPT controller that can be used as a portable, "aimed" power source. That way he maximizes the 12v amps recharging whatever batteries he decides on without the effort and expense of roof-mounted panels and a permanently wired 120v inverter system. BTW, I bought one of those panels last spring on sale for $89 and was amazed at the power I got when properly oriented.

[Tgbyrne716]

Aren't the 2 x 110Ah = 220Ah functionally limited to 110Ah? I've read that repeated full discharge damages the batteries quickly severely limiting the life of the batteries.