Technical house battery charging problem.

FIRE UP · 12-30-2014, 02:14 PM

Gents,
One more house batteries charging problem here. As if there's not enough "battery charging" questions on here. Anyway, here goes.

We have an '04 Itasca Horizon, 36GD with the C-7 330 CAT. Up 'till recently, as in the last couple of months or so, my battery systems, both house and chassis, have been hunky-dory. No issues what so ever. But, lately we've developed a problem with the house batteries not charging while driving down the road. Now, as I understand it, the same solenoid that's used for "Battery Boost" on the toggle switch on the dash, is all the one that's put into service, for charging the house batteries while driving down the road, correct?

So, thinking that, that's the way things work, when we started having this house battery charging problem, I thought I'd try something. I'd have the wife check the "One Place" panel and the status of the house batteries while I was sitting up front and, the engine had just started and was running for about a minute. If she reported that the house batteries were sitting at 12.5 or less, I'd hit the "Battery Boost" solenoid and, let it go. She said, "OK, the house batteries are now at 13.4 and holding.

Hmmmmm, We could now run down the road, for no matter how long and, the house batteries would be at the 13.4 or more, consistently. And, sometimes, they would be receiving the charge from the engine even without me pushing the Battery Boost. But, lately, even when I push the Battery Boost toggle on the dash, the house batteries will remain at the 12.4 or less.

Now, I know where that solenoid is, and, yes, I'll tear into it later today but, my question is, what energizes that solenoid without me pushing the Battery Boost toggle on the dash, after the engine is running? And, is it possible that, whatever energizes it, is still energizing it but, the solenoid is just not closing and therefore, sending the charge to the house batteries? Thanks for any help here.

One thing I've not done is, have the engine OFF, and, have her push that Battery boost switch on the dash and, me be back there listening and trying to feel is there's a "click" sound in that are where the solenoid is in. I'll try that in a few minutes.
Scott

Jbmsr · 12-30-2014, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

Gents,
One more house batteries charging problem here. As if there's not enough "battery charging" questions on here. Anyway, here goes.

We have an '04 Itasca Horizon, 36GD with the C-7 330 CAT. Up 'till recently, as in the last couple of months or so, my battery systems, both house and chassis, have been hunky-dory. No issues what so ever. But, lately we've developed a problem with the house batteries not charging while driving down the road. Now, as I understand it, the same solenoid that's used for "Battery Boost" on the toggle switch on the dash, is all the one that's put into service, for charging the house batteries while driving down the road, correct?

So, thinking that, that's the way things work, when we started having this house battery charging problem, I thought I'd try something. I'd have the wife check the "One Place" panel and the status of the house batteries while I was sitting up front and, the engine had just started and was running for about a minute. If she reported that the house batteries were sitting at 12.5 or less, I'd hit the "Battery Boost" solenoid and, let it go. She said, "OK, the house batteries are now at 13.4 and holding.

Hmmmmm, We could now run down the road, for no matter how long and, the house batteries would be at the 13.4 or more, consistently. And, sometimes, they would be receiving the charge from the engine even without me pushing the Battery Boost. But, lately, even when I push the Battery Boost toggle on the dash, the house batteries will remain at the 12.4 or less.

Now, I know where that solenoid is, and, yes, I'll tear into it later today but, my question is, what energizes that solenoid without me pushing the Battery Boost toggle on the dash, after the engine is running? And, is it possible that, whatever energizes it, is still energizing it but, the solenoid is just not closing and therefore, sending the charge to the house batteries? Thanks for any help here.

One thing I've not done is, have the engine OFF, and, have her push that Battery boost switch on the dash and, me be back there listening and trying to feel is there's a "click" sound in that are where the solenoid is in. I'll try that in a few minutes.
Scott

My brother experienced the same thing and it was his alternator.
Jesse

palehorse89 · 12-30-2014, 02:43 PM

Hi Scott, I am not sure here, but I would think your Coach would have a BIRD system to watch over and maintain the batteries?? Not sure though.....
http://www.irv2.com/forums/attachmen...0&d=1299082981

Here is a interesting thread on the BIRD controller....
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/does...ies-79681.html

cbeierl · 12-30-2014, 03:31 PM

Hi Scott,

I suspect that your solenoid is getting flaky. You might want to take a look at this long, old, thread: Yet another solenoid bites the dust! It discusses the problems and some possible solutions for that solenoid. It includes postings describing my solution of replacing the solenoid with the silver contact version along with some series resisters to drop the activation voltage down closer to 12V to prolong the life of the solenoid.

Dr4Film · 12-30-2014, 04:19 PM

Your Battery Isolator Relay is used to tie the Chassis and House batteries together. The AUX Start switch is a switch that should only be used when the Chassis battery is too low to start the engine. Once the engine starts then the Battery Isolator Relay should disengage.

People who are in a pinch and jam something under the switch to keep the relay energize will eventually burn it up as it was not designed to have a constant 12 VDC supplied to the relay to keep it energized. The 12 VDC is used for a short burst but when the BIRD is supplying power to the BIR then the voltage is reduced to between 3-4 VDC.

What you need to do is to research and troubleshoot your charging system that you now have that keeps your House Batteries charged when driving.

If you have the BIRD system there are plenty of threads that discuss the BIRD charging system.

You also need a DVOM meter to accomplish your troubleshooting steps.

I would first make sure that the Battery Isolator Relay is functiong correctly. HERE is a four step process to check out the isolator relay.

The next place I would look is the BIRD relay.

My charging system is most likely not the same as yours so it would do you no good to post how mine works.

Good luck.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

grtharris · 12-30-2014, 06:27 PM

FIRE UP, attached is a part of the drawing for you charging relay, it notes the location as being in the power cord compartment. First your coach does not have a BIRD system just a continuous duty relay that closes when you press the "Battery Boose" switch or from the engine RUN ONLY POWER signal.
And from the post from cbeierl the relays do get a little flaky and the contacts corrode over time.

Dr4Film · 12-30-2014, 06:41 PM

Grant,

Since Fire Up's coach does NOT have a BIRD charging system then what does he have for charging the House batteries while driving?

Or maybe Fire Up can answer that question.

Or maybe he doesn't have anything but thinks he does.

If in fact there is no charging system for the house batteries while underway then he should invest in either the 5 amp Trik-L-Start or the 15 amp Amp-L-Start to keep his house batteries charged while underway AND it will keep the chassis battery charge while hooked to shore power or generator power.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

bobmac · 12-30-2014, 06:45 PM

Scott:
You will see that there are several difference devices that perform the same function as "the Battery Mode Solenoid" (aka Charge Solenoid) in Winnebago coaches so all of the posts are really addressing the same device functionally.
My understanding it that the solenoid closes when the engine is running bridging the house and chassis batteries together. The solenoid is located in my coach in the "chassis" electrical compartment on the DS behind the rear axle. It is located behind a panel housing chassis circuit breakers for the slides and other devices. Also located there are the controller boards for the Power Gear electric slides on my coach.
Your diagnosis of a defective solenoid is confirmed by using the boost switch with no equalization of voltages between batteries.
The solenoid is easy to change if you remove the panels. On my coach, the circuit breakers are on a small panel that must be removed first and passed through its own opening to enable removal of the larger pieces of sheet metal for full access to the solenoid. Unless you like fireworks displays while working in this area, disconnect the positive leads from the coach batteries and shut off the chassis disconnect. You can probably gain access to the solenoid in not a lot more time than it too to read this by knowing the proper sequence and you wont have "Burn marks" in the metal like I do!
The Charge solenoids seem to fail more frequently than they should and is really a critical piece for 12v system wellness. Good luck,

FIRE UP · 12-30-2014, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grtharris

FIRE UP, attached is a part of the drawing for you charging relay, it notes the location as being in the power cord compartment. First your coach does not have a BIRD system just a continuous duty relay that closes when you press the "Battery Boose" switch or from the engine RUN ONLY POWER signal.
And from the post from cbeierl the relays do get a little flaky and the contacts corrode over time.

grtharris,
I surely thank you for sending that drawing. I'd seen it several times in the past when studying things on our coach and, I think I've got it stored in my PDF file, I'll have to dig it out. I was almost positive that I DO NOT have the BIRD system. And a thanks goes to Chris too for linking the other post (which I've not looked at just yet but will). He's always in there with the proper wiring diagram or, at the very least, telling all of us where to find what we need in wiring diagrams.

I also want to thank those others who've responded here for my issue. It's immensely appreciated. And, to the one who thinks it's possibly my alternator, well Sir, it's consistently about 13.2-13.5 depending on the demand at the time. When we first start up after dry camping for a bit, she'll hover around 13.8 - 14.0 or so.

Well, I had to put a new drill press together that the wife got me for Christmas so, the tackling of the big solenoid will have to take place tomorrow. Again, thank you all for your tremendous help here. I will surely post the results of what I find.
Scott

FIRE UP · 12-30-2014, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr4Film

Grant,

Since Fire Up's coach does NOT have a BIRD charging system then what does he have for charging the House batteries while driving?

Or maybe Fire Up can answer that question.

Or maybe he doesn't have anything but thinks he does.

If in fact there is no charging system for the house batteries while underway then he should invest in either the 5 amp Trik-L-Start or the 15 amp Amp-L-Start to keep his house batteries charged while underway AND it will keep the chassis battery charge while hooked to shore power or generator power.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

Richard,
I surely thank you for your input here. It's very welcomed. Yes, the coach NORMALLY does provide charging for the house batteries while under way. And, it's been a great system now for, well, it's an '04 and this is almost '15 so, it's been great for about 10 years or so. But, only recently, as in the last maybe, couple of months, with sporadic trips, has it been malfunctioning. In my battery maintenance practices, I usually remove the house batteries for a thorough cleaning, watering and electrolyte hydrometer testing. Then, when it's all back together, I fire the big CAT up and make sure, all is well with the charging system.

It always initially starts with about 13.6 or 13.7 and then, after a few minutes of engine running, it drops to about 13.3 or 13.4. So, that's how I know it's been a good system for a long time. And, you mentioned Trik-L-Start", yes, my year of Itasca was one that did not have any means of charging the chassis batteries from the factory. Well, I didn't know about the Trik-L-Start at the time so, I simply hard wired in, a NAPA, three stages battery charger, specifically for the chassis batteries. I tied it into an un used breaker in my 110VAC breaker box. Then, ran the leads through the side wall bulkhead and tied them directly to the pos an neg posts of the chassis batteries.

Ever since that day, those chassis batteries have been at 13.7, consistently and, with no boiling over what so ever. And, that system, allows me to simply flip a breaker to disconnect that charger from them if and when ever needed. Thanks again for your input here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmac

Scott:
You will see that there are several difference devices that perform the same function as "the Battery Mode Solenoid" (aka Charge Solenoid) in Winnebago coaches so all of the posts are really addressing the same device functionally.
My understanding it that the solenoid closes when the engine is running bridging the house and chassis batteries together. The solenoid is located in my coach in the "chassis" electrical compartment on the DS behind the rear axle. It is located behind a panel housing chassis circuit breakers for the slides and other devices. Also located there are the controller boards for the Power Gear electric slides on my coach.
Your diagnosis of a defective solenoid is confirmed by using the boost switch with no equalization of voltages between batteries.
The solenoid is easy to change if you remove the panels. On my coach, the circuit breakers are on a small panel that must be removed first and passed through its own opening to enable removal of the larger pieces of sheet metal for full access to the solenoid. Unless you like fireworks displays while working in this area, disconnect the positive leads from the coach batteries and shut off the chassis disconnect. You can probably gain access to the solenoid in not a lot more time than it too to read this by knowing the proper sequence and you wont have "Burn marks" in the metal like I do!
The Charge solenoids seem to fail more frequently than they should and is really a critical piece for 12v system wellness. Good luck,

Bob,
As I understand it, your understanding is CORRECT. There is no complicated system. It's simply a solenoid that links the charging of the chassis batteries to charging the house batteries too. And as for where it's located, it's in that shore power compartment, just above my inverter. I do have to remove a couple of screws in order to gain access to it. This is going to be fun. I've just developed an ultra small pin hole leak in the toilet supply line fitting under the back side of the toilet that's, going to be a lot harder to fix than this solenoid.

Thanks again for your input and help here.
Scott

SCVJeff · 12-30-2014, 10:51 PM

Hi Scott,
I agree with Chris.. We use these same contactors in ENG and Satellite trucks, and they are loaded with issues. They overheat and burn out, They get magnetized and don't always pull in all the way. The contacts get carbon'ed up and get goofy..

If you can, meter the coil with the engine running, then with the bridge switch pressed, but look at it AT the coil with a DVM. Sounds like its just getting sluggish, OR the 'run' voltage has sagged, and the bridge voltage pulls it in with the run voltage keeping it there

wa8yxm · 12-31-2014, 01:45 AM

The isolator solenid may or may not be the aux-start solenoid, but.....

NOT ALWAYS.

A starter solenoid makes a good boost solenoid, However if you hold the switch for like 10 mintues, it may burn out and fail.

The same solenoid can be used for isolation, but the control electronics do a surge then limit thing where full power is applied for like 1/10th second to get it to pull in then half power to hold (NOTE: the half is pulled out of thin air, may be more or less) to prevent burn out.

Holding the button can burn that out.

or it may be a different type of device all together.

I have been known to jumper it though.

ladagobago · 12-31-2014, 06:24 AM

Yep, its the relay. Had one go bad several years ago. replaced it with a high amp from NAPA and no problem. to test the issue simply jumper across the relay and you charge should be ok. A meter will show voltage on one side and not the other indicating the relay contact is not making a good connection internally. I always carry a set of heavy duty alligator clip jumpers with me and small roll of #8 wire just in case.

jerichorick · 12-31-2014, 08:29 AM

Let me paint the picture with as few words as possible. The BIRD is a relay, yes. But it switches by sensing the voltage from each of the battery banks, house or start. The lower voltage bank is the one that is selected to get the charging service. When the other bank is the low one the relay switches. This is a "differential" relay.

When you replace it get a CONTINUOUS duty, silver contact type. Any automotive electrical shop with have a replacement. If you don't know the current rating call Winnebago. (Here is your relay diagram. The left one is the one you want.) They can tell you the spec or one of the fine folks on irv2 will find it for you. It may not look the same physically but if it fits in the space it is okay to use. I did mine in my '05 Vectra. (It was located in the worst physical location. I think your is in that same spot!)

This is a very dangerous job if you don't do it correctly. Disconnect the ground to the chassis from your batteries before attempting to change the relay. Removing the wires from the negative terminal to the chassis and physically isolating them to prevent mishap. Once that is done you will be safe from injuries. Remember, both house and start batteries must be isolated from ground.

Keep us posted.

Rick Y

FIRE UP · 12-31-2014, 11:58 AM

To all who've posted here on here assisting me with my charging issue, I'M GOING IN... I'll call for help if needed. Thanks for all the advice, experience and info. I'll post my findings, if I make it out ALIVE!
Scott

ladagobago · 12-31-2014, 07:14 PM

once your into it you might find it to be a trombetta high current relay. these are in the order of 200 amp continuous duty. they have always been a problem. I don't think they are as good as claimed.

don't under any circumstances disregard the issue mentioned above of disconnecting all power sources, chassis, house and shore power.

When I replaced mine, I was way down in the FL keys and used a NAPA continuous duty solenoid as an emergency get home repair. it was rated at only 80 amps but guess what it is still there and works fine.

The winnebago supplied relay has been a source of difficulty for over a decade. there is lots of discussion on it and some have replace it several times. good luck. take your time and while at it take a picture with your phone before you disconnect the wires just for reference.

FIRE UP · 12-31-2014, 10:44 PM

Well Gang, ALL FIXED!!!!
Well I did some technical testing and basically confirmed that I had a bad "Auxiliary Start Solenoid" which, as many of you know, does dual duty in terms of also controlling the charging of the house batteries. What I did was, pushed on the toggle on the dash, no ignition on and, could hear it all the way back there, in that compartment. So, I know it was activating.

Then, I had the wife start the rig and, when she turned the ignition on, I was sitting right next to it and, I heard and felt it click loudly. So, at this point, it's activating. Then, I put the DVO meter on the different lugs on top to check the voltage. Well, I was getting 13.6 on the left top one and, 12.5 on the right top one. Well, that basically confirms the solenoid is working but, has bad contacts.

I looked at all the wires on it, and there's only 6. Two large gauge on the top left lug, two large ones on the right top lug and, a small one (yellow)the lower right small lug and a small one (white) the left side lower small lug.
So, I pulled off all the wires, taped them out of the way and, proceeded to TRY and remove it from the wall. No luck.

The Phillips head screws that the factory used, were/are apparently seized. I got out the big bit and some air impact and, all it did was grind out the Phillips in the top of the screw. So, this means war. So, out came the drill. I drilled the head off the one screw I could get to easily. That allowed me to rock that solenoid back and forth 'till it came loose from the other screw.

I cruised on down to my local NAPA and, the nice lady, worked diligently for quite some time, trying to match it up. No luck. NAPA, at least the one in our neighborhood, doesn't even list continuous duty solenoids. I looked though one of their catalogs and all I found was starter solenoids which, surely won't do for the job.

So, back to the barn. I decided to dissect that solenoid. I figured, what the heck, if I ruin it, so what, it ain't working correctly anyway. Long story short, as you'll see in the pictures, the contacts were not all that bad. I thought I'd find some seriously charred contact points. Nope, they were barely marked. It's kind of odd that with such little inhibition, it would block the charge form getting to the house batteries.

But, I got out the sanding and grinding tools and went to work on cleaning the contacts. It took about 5 minutes. They look as good as new. So, I put the little monster back together. I put it back in with new mounting hex head TEK screws (way better than factory Phillips) and, then tied in all the large cables and wires to it.

I then checked the "no ignition" operation by simply pushing on the toggle on the dash and again, could hear it all the way back there. I then fired up the beast and, went back to check voltages. Well, I must have done something right 'cause I'm now getting 13.6 on both sides of it, YAHOOOOOOOOOOOO.

As far as I'm concerned, IT'S FIXED! Now, based on the fact that, that rig, engine etc. is TEN YEARS OLD, I figure that cleanup of the contacts inside that solenoid, should last for at least another 5-10 years. But, we'll see.

Anyway, take a brief look at the pics. By the way, that solenoid on ebay hovers around $94.00 for the Trombetta 12V 200 A continuous duty one.

Well, chalk up another repair and, saved a few bucks while at it. More for the diesel tank.
Scott

In the last two pictures, you'll see the solenoid mounted inside that hard to get to area. The one I worked on is on the left, the other one is the house battery disconnect solenoid.

KJINTF · 01-01-2015, 06:53 AM

Nice pics - good to hear/see it's all back and working as it should
I too much prefer to fix rather than replace

Many folks do not understand those Trombetta 12V 200 A continuous duty solenoids draw a lot of current as in the neighborhood of 4amps continuous to keep the switch closed. Nice heavy duty solenoids however very power hungry beasts when compared to <1amp for a 100amp 100% continuous duty standard solenoid.

PS _ Not sure how you keep your chassis batteries charged or what specific batteries they are but though I would toss this out anyway. I installed a "disable" switch used to turn off the ignition activated charging (activation of the "Boost" relay) function (yes it can be activated when / if needed). The constant 14+ volts to my deep cycle batteries was/is NOT desired. My 550watts of solar and manually controller multistage converter keep the coach battery bank up.

jerichorick · 01-01-2015, 07:41 AM

Great job and pictures. But, if you will note, your contacts are copper without silver plating. That is the problem with the failure. You had just enough carbon to cause the failure. The copper contacts are most popular to find and less money.

I hope your charging when on the road.

Rick Y

YC1 · 01-01-2015, 08:19 AM

Outstanding pictures and great write up. Just for information I have measured the current draw of that solenoid and it is 1.5 amps. They get extremely hot to the touch. As you have said, this is a very common failure item and can be intermittent. I would suggest to anyone with one consider changing it every few years just as you would change a filter.