Solar Experts-Does this sound right to you?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by creativepart

If I remember you don't use your Microwave on inverter, but other heating appliances take a big toll on your batteries when used via inverter.

No, we can not use the microwave off of the inverter because it (the inverter) is only 1000 watts and the microwave is probably 1500 watts or so.

It is true that the toaster and the tea kettle take quite some power out of the batteries but as long as we get sunny days and are not parked in the shade we generally get most, if not all, of the expended power back. If not all, then enough for us to stay for 2 days boondocking, and that is generally all we do at any one place.

Originally Posted by creativepart

We have 400 aH of batteries and a 2000w inverter but 60 seconds of microwave will take about 8% of our State of Charge... just that quickly. Recharging 8% of the charge back can take 20 mins or more with the generator. However, I have AGM batteries and so the comparison for you with Lithium isn't the same.

8% is about 32 AH for you, and that seems like quite a bit for 60 seconds. I would have assumed that a 1600 watt microwave would draw a lot less. Our tea kettle, at about 750 watts, draws about 3-4% of our 200 AH, but that is in about 3 minutes and I would have expected a microwave, at twice the power, to draw twice the current, or about 6-8% in 3 minutes, not in one minute.

I had been thinking about upgrading our inverter to 2000 watts specifically to allow us to use the microwave but after your comment perhaps I will stick with what we have and use the generator for the microwave.

Originally Posted by creativepart

I do know that it's likely that running the generator in our 38' Class A is nowhere near as noisy or unpleasant as it is in a smaller Fuse Class C.

There is a lot of truth in that statement, and that is why we try to avoid using the generator at all, except for the recommended 30 minutes a month under power, but the AC use takes care of that issue.

[al1florida]

On multiple RV's, with my Trimetric monitor installed, the readings I see when my microwave is on is about 140 amps of 12V DC power from the batteries.

So 1 minute (60 seconds) of 140amps would work out to 2.3AH or about 6 tenths of 1 percent (0.6%) of a 400AH battery system.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by al1florida

On multiple RV's, with my Trimetric monitor installed, the readings I see when my microwave is on is about 140 amps of 12V DC power from the batteries.

So 1 minute (60 seconds) of 140amps would work out to 2.3AH or about 6 tenths of 1 percent (0.6%) of a 400AH battery system.

That makes more sense to me. I assume the microwave is about twice the power of the tea kettle or the toaster and they consume about 80 AH while running. Thus I assumed the microwave should suck up about 150 AH and, for one minute that would be about 2.5 AH, or 1.25% of our battery power. Of course we would be actually running the microwave for probably 3 minutes, but that should still be only about 4%. Perhaps 5 or 6 tops.

I do not expect to do that because the cost of the inverter upgrade is probably not worth it given the times I would use the microwave, and the money probably better applied to another solar panel, but still ...

[creativepart]

The microwave seems to start out with a big power demand. So, running two minutes is probably no different than running 30 seconds. It's the start up, like with an A/C that seems to be the biggest draw.

I must admit, I'm mostly guessing on that 8% number. I've only done it once or twice and both times I was shocked how big the drop was. But I did not think to actually measure it. I do know the voltage drop from the batteries was shocking. The second time I tried it my LVCO (low voltage cut off) kicked in and the inverter shut down. The batteries did bounce back, but I decided right then that the generator was the way to go for microwave usage.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by al1florida

So 1 minute (60 seconds) of 140amps would work out to 2.3AH or about 6 tenths of 1 percent (0.6%) of a 400AH battery system.

This would be true only if the amperage draw was 1/20 of the battery amp hour rating which is based on a 20 hour draw. But it is not, it is about 7 times more or about 1/3 of the 20 hour amp hour rating.

For lead acid batteries this results in several times the state of charge reduction so maybe 2-3 percent, not 0.6 percent or 8 percent but something in between.

I think that battery monitors take this into account when converting instantaneous amperage to SOC changes- more reduction if more than 1/20 battery rating and less if less.

David

[imnprsd]

What about the option of keeping your OEM power setup, but modifying it a bit; and stay with lead acid batteries by...

A) Dedicate your OEM power grid (psw 1000W inverter & 2-12V house batteries) to just your residential refrigerator. ...Then connect 2 of your solar panels to supplement power to it.

B) Build another 2 or 3 (12V) house battery cage in your storage bay (Group B batteries) and install a 2nd 1500W psw, high frequency inverter (with or without a charger), and power sub-panel, and connect your microwave, TV, and bathroom wall sockets to it. ...And then connect your 3rd solar power panel and a separate ppm (cheap) solar controller to supplement your power to this separate group of batteries.

Note: Your interior fluorescent lights run off 12V power so you need to decide which battery group you want your converter to run off of. ...And I would convert these to LED if you have not already checked on this option no matter which power grid method you go with.

C) Then install a Victron 17A or 25A wall charger to use when you have shore power to recharge your Group-B batteries. Note: You can forgo this step if you go with and Inverter/Charger in "B;" ...and your OEM Group-A batteries will be charged by your OEM charger already installed.

D) Install a Keyline VSR (or Blue Sea battery combiner) so your engine alternator can recharge all your house batteries while you drive.

E) Add additional wires to your existing ATS, but make sure it can handle 50A, because I will bet your OEM ATS is only rated for 30A... unless you have a 50A generator. Do you?

This configuration may save you money and give you more AH of storage vs. going with Lithium Ion batteries that may have alternator cost upgrades you have not yet explored.

Basically, what I am saying is that you want more battery storage and Lithium Ion is not where it needs to be. Now if you can figure out how to use a recycled or new Tesla battery, without burning down your RV, then that maybe the future, but we are not at that point.

Plus all this battery and solar stuff is "out the window" if you have to run your generator to keep your house AC working. So you need to ask yourself: When we are boondocking, how often do we need our generator to run our AC? ...Because when you do this, your generator will power everything! ...And all this battery stuff is a "don't care" geeky idea!

==> And IMO, don't muddy your purchase with all this nonsense. They will not respond well and you will not be happy with their recommendations. You also will NOT save money. So you need to "go custom" and find a shop to make all these modifications after you purchase your RV. ...Not to mention you may change your mind as you build out this RV.

==> I'm surprised an RV with a residential refrigerator and microwave will only come with 1000W inverter and 2 house batteries. As for solar this is not a replacement for battery storage, and you will get zero amps of charge at night, with clouds out, and/or when you are parking in most State Parks with trees! So solar is nice to have, but it's still not a "solution" to your power concerns.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

==> I'm surprised an RV with a residential refrigerator and microwave will only come with 1000W inverter and 2 house batteries. As for solar this is not a replacement for battery storage, and you will get zero amps of charge at night, with clouds out, and/or when you are parking in most State Parks with trees! So solar is nice to have, but it's still not a "solution" to your power concerns.

I am not sure that a small RV compressor refrigerator can be called a residential refrigerator because the one in our Fuse is nothing like the one in our home. Our house fridge has separate controls for both sections, refrigerator and freezer, while the RV one has only a single control. Our home unit is large while the RV one is quite small and has far less of a power footprint. I am not trying to be pedantic but I don't see any issue with our RV only coming with a 1000 watt inverter and 2 house batteries. Winnebago probably designed it for people who camp with shore power and then it is quite sufficient. For those of us who like to dry camp they now offer a Lithium package which seems quite sufficient to our power needs. I am just sorry it was not available when we bought the RV, although our camping needs have changed from what it was when we originally bought the RV.

As for solar, it is not intended as a source of power for daily and nightly usage, but as a means of recharging the batteries, which are the source of power for daily and nightly usage.

[creativepart]

RV manufacturers build to low price points because that’s what sells. They also don’t make their products super flexible for all kinds of users. Most of the time they expect users to be staying at campgrounds with power and other hook ups.

This yields products with small inverters, small tanks, and small battery banks.

There are specific models designed to address other kinds of users but generally not in all model lines and price points. Owners need to be aware of their needs and be ready to option or modify their chosen RV to suit their particular style of camping. Which is what the OP of this thread is clearly planning to do.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by creativepart

RV manufacturers build to low price points because that’s what sells. They also don’t make their products super flexible for all kinds of users. Most of the time they expect users to be staying at campgrounds with power and other hook ups.

This yields products with small inverters, small tanks, and small battery banks.

There are specific models designed to address other kinds of users but generally not in all model lines and price points. Owners need to be aware of their needs and be ready to option or modify their chosen RV to suit their particular style of camping. Which is what the OP of this thread is clearly planning to do.

Yes. Although Winnebago does seem to understand that part of the market is changing and now offers larger inverters in some models as well as upgrades available as after purchase add-ons. That is positive.

While I am quite satisfied with our current BB battery addition and the Viltron DC-DC charger we added I now think it might have been worth while to consider the Lithium upgrade Winnebago offers. It includes 250 AH of Lithium batteries, an upgraded 2000 watt inverter, and upgraded charger and a BIM, all with the Winnebago warranty which seems like a nice, if expensive, choice. One particularly nice thing is that as I understand it the inverter in the upgrade powers all electric outlets.

[imnprsd]

My mistake: I expressed some suggestions based on the OP stating he had a residential refrigerator, which I took to be 10cu-ft or more; and the need to run a 1500W microwave; and then I mixed up my comments with AjMike's 1000 watt inverter configuration, which is a separate discussion.

So I got off track and focused on ow to NOT away a working 1000W-PSW inverter with 2 batteries. Again, my mistake, but this subject does create a "stress test" of sorts I was noodling on just recently.

Last summer, I was faced with the real possibility my 2000W Dimensions Inverter/Charger needed to be replaced. So faced with the possibility I may need to spend $3,000 I started thinking about how to run two inverters.

Why?

* For one thing low frequency PSW inverters are expensive and yes more desirable (even safer) when you start managing higher currents for long periods of time.

* ...But, I think 2 high frequency PSW inverters are priced much more affordable than ever -- and they are PSW not MSW -- and they are really cheaper when they operate under 1000W, with 800W or less being more desirable, if you are trying to over design your power grid by using a 2000W less efficient inverter.

* Xantrex is branding some pretty good inverters, at lower prices now, without chargers, that seem to be working out well in the RV industry.

* And using separate chargers seems to be a better design vs. the all-in-one 2000W inverter with and internal relay (ATS) to pass 30A power to your sub-panel.

Anyway, I found a TV repair shop that fixed my Dimensions inverter for $50 so I did not need to spend $3,000; and so I abandoned my ideas of buying separates (inverter and charger) and changing my wiring. ...But I believe it can be done cheaper, and it will operate automatically with the addition of another ATS.

Note: Whenever I have to spend money on an RV repair, I always think about:
"How I can upgraded for the same or less money?"

...And in this case I learned that separating the inverter from the charger is a better design (IMO).

As this relates to this thread, I was proposing the idea of adding a second inverter and a second battery bank to... save money and get more AH of storage.

As for the other observations I made, I stand by these general guidelines that apply to us all:

* Lithium is expensive and can damage your alternator if you don't have it regulated property.

==> See this thread and video for more information on alternator output and safety concerns using Lithium Ion battery storage:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ng-358461.html

* Solar is not a power source you can rely on. At best it's supplemental. At worst it's useless.

* Wind power is another renewable source of energy not yet very popular with the RV community, but is more efficient than solar... as long as you have wind... which means it can recharge your batteries when you are driving and at night and potentially 24/7.

* Plus all this battery and solar stuff is "out the window" if you have to run your generator to keep your house AC working. So you need to ask yourself: When we are boondocking, how often do we need our generator to run our AC? ...Because when you do this, your generator will power everything! ...And all this battery stuff is a "don't care" geeky idea!

[Winterbagoal]

Many of the comments in this thread are based on the premise that we *must* always recharge our LiFePO4 battery banks to 100%. That it is imperative to replace all that we have used. This premise is wrong, and Lithium batteries are happy when they're recharged to 75%, and will function fine at that state of charge. That "we must recharge to 100%" during the sun time, only applies to FLA/AGM batteries.
If we lose the "I must be at 100% state of charge after every draw down" mentality, the perceived complexity of lithium energy storage, is greatly diminished.

[creativepart]

The desire to recharge during the day is to provide enough power through the dark hours when power is going out and none is coming in to support the loads that are called upon overnight.

Assuming that the batteries have enough amps left to get through the night then you're correct. The need to recharge isn't imperative.

However, even if there is plenty of amps left to support the fridge and maybe propane heater fan through the night the next day recharging does become a real need.

If there were no more heavy loads during the hours of darkness it would be as you suggest.

[imnprsd]

OKAY: I buy that Lithium batteries offer advantages over lead acid. We all know that Lithium battery technology has improved based on the evolution of the cell phone and laptop market and nay I include Tesla.

So when I/you compare a lead acid battery bank to a lithium battery bank, it might be helpful if we normalize the "useful life" between old and new technology and then compare the cost of an Amp-Hour (AH) over time. For example:

...My 4-6V-GC2 Golf Cart batteries cost $500.

...And I am constantly recharging them at 40% SOC.

...Therefore, I only use on average about 60% of the 420AH stored, which is a useful cycle of 250AH.

...As for a useful life I will stretch it to 4 years on average and I think most people will accept this.

So let's say I pay $500 for 250AH/cycle and I get 4 years of useful life out of my lead acid battery bank, which I'm not that happy with. So please explain why I should switch to lithium using the same parameters?

Note: If you don't know your lead acid SOC is almost never 100%; and over time you will be lucky to get a true 90% SOC after the first year; and then 80% true SOC in year 2; and by year 4 you may be down to 50% of a full charge even though your SOC gauge implies it's at 100%. Why? ...Because these SOC gauges are not accurate... and they never will be with a lead acid battery after 1 year of use. (Just take my word for it as I do not what to explain why this is so.) However, a lithium battery may not have this problem. Do they?

Also, most lead acid batteries fail when just one of house batteries shorts out. Or the entire bank may end up over-sulfated for one reason or another in just 3 years. Do lithium batteries suffer from sulfation problems?

So this is why I am not a lead acid battery fan, but I admit I don't know that much about them. So convince me!

To compare apples-to-apples, how much does a 250AH bank of lithium batteries cost and what is it's useful cycle and useful life?

As for the time to recharge, I really don't care about that.

So now I would like to know from you folks who installed 250AH or more of lithium batteries:

A) How much you spent on this upgrade?

B) Did you also have to upgrade your alternator?

C) How long can you go before you have to buy new bank of lithium batteries?

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

OKAY: I buy that Lithium batteries offer advantages over lead acid. We all know that Lithium battery technology has improved based on the evolution of the cell phone and laptop market and nay I include Tesla.

So when I/you compare a lead acid battery bank to a lithium battery bank, it might be helpful if we normalize the "useful life" between old and new technology and then compare the cost of an Amp-Hour (AH) over time. For example:

...My 4-6V-GC2 Golf Cart batteries cost $500.

...And I am constantly recharging them at 40% SOC.

...Therefore, I only use on average about 60% of the 420AH stored, which is a useful cycle of 250AH.

...As for a useful life I will stretch it to 4 years on average and I think most people will accept this.

So let's say I pay $500 for 250AH/cycle and I get 4 years of useful life out of my lead acid battery bank, which I'm not that happy with. So please explain why I should switch to lithium using the same parameters?

Note: If you don't know your lead acid SOC is almost never 100%; and over time you will be lucky to get a true 90% SOC after the first year; and then 80% true SOC in year 2; and by year 4 you may be down to 50% of a full charge even though your SOC gauge implies it's at 100%. Why? ...Because these SOC gauges are not accurate... and they never will be with a lead acid battery after 1 year of use. (Just take my word for it as I do not what to explain why this is so.) However, a lithium battery may not have this problem. Do they?

Also, most lead acid batteries fail when just one of house batteries shorts out. Or the entire bank may end up over-sulfated for one reason or another in just 3 years. Do lithium batteries suffer from sulfation problems?

So this is why I am not a lead acid battery fan, but I admit I don't know that much about them. So convince me!

To compare apples-to-apples, how much does a 250AH bank of lithium batteries cost and what is it's useful cycle and useful life?

As for the time to recharge, I really don't care about that.

So now I would like to know from you folks who installed 250AH or more of lithium batteries:

A) How much you spent on this upgrade?

B) Did you also have to upgrade your alternator?

C) How long can you go before you have to buy new bank of lithium batteries?

There are so many variables involved it makes it very difficult to be able to answer or reply to your above questions and statements.

First: The vast majority of RV'ers never or seldom dry camp or boondock. The just go from electric hookup to electric hookups. So lead acid batteries work extremely well for them.

Second: There is the other group of RV'ers who occasionally dry camp over night or for 2-3 days, such as a night at Walmart or at a NF or SP campground. Also they may only do this 2-4 times a year. These RV'ers really don't "need" Lithium as they will be back on shore power to get their batteries back to 100% before any sulfate damage occurs.

Third: There is the group of RV'ers who dry camp or boondock for extended periods, say repeated stays of 10 days to a month or more without hooking up to shore power. Some in this group really dislike running the generator for a variety of reasons. This group, (of which we belong to) I believe really benefit from Lithium. Trying to use lead acid (no matter if it is AGM or flooded cell) there is the real problem of getting your batteries back to 100% or even 97% full. Many time you will only get back to 80% to 90% full for multiple days. For this group lithium is really the best solution.

As I believe you mentioned above "sulfation of the battery plates causes degradation of the lead acid battery capacity".

Example:

...And I am constantly recharging them at 40% SOC.

...Therefore, I only use on average about 60% of the 420AH stored, which is a useful cycle of 250AH.

In your case with a 420AH battery bank and you use 250AH, how do you get it back to 100% or close to 100%?

imsprsd, from this point on in this example when I am using the words "you" and "your" I don't mean that this is what you actually do, but I hope to use the word to mean what any person would need to be doing.

Running your generator and putting 50-60amps per hour back in the batteries (generally it is not recommended to charge batteries faster than 1/4 C) will take 4 to 5 hours of generator time IF you could get a constant 50 amps going in your batteries for that long, which doesn't happen.

Even if you only ran your generator for 2 hours and get 100amps back in the batteries you still will need a really large solar array to finish up the 150 amps for the day with full sunshine and no clouds or haze.

So you do get the batteries back to 75% full which gives you a capacity of only 315AH. So taking the 250AH out of the batteries this day/night leaves you with a SOC of about 15%. That is getting pretty close to a dead battery and really reducing the life of your battery bank.

Now you are at 15% SOC and now you need to put about 350amps back in that battery. Really, really difficult to do.

This applies for RV's with 200AH or even 100AH as well. Taking batteries down to 50% or even 40% SOC and it takes quite a bit of effort to get them back up to 100%.

End of example.

Repeatedly not getting your batteries back to 100% and sulfating the battery plates, with heavy dry camping use and you could be looking at replacing your battery pack in 6 months or a year, not 2-5 years as you where hoping for.

So now I would like to know from you folks who installed 250AH or more of lithium batteries:

A) How much you spent on this upgrade?

B) Did you also have to upgrade your alternator?

C) How long can you go before you have to buy new bank of lithium batteries?

Cost: In Jan 2016 I installed 400AH of Lithium and 650 watts of solar (Two residential 325 watt panels) on our RV. The battery pack weighs only 130 pounds compared to about 280 pounds for GC2 batteries. The cost of the batteries was about $3500. I did the install so no labor costs. Paid installation would be about the same as for lead acid.

Alternator: I installed an on/off switch for the solenoid that connects the alternator to the house batteries and have not needed to charge the lithium from the alternator. If I do use the alternator to charge in the future, I will monitor the Trimetric battery monitor to see what the amp draw is from the alternator. If it really does jump up high, say 75 to 100 amps or more (which I doubt) I will just not charge with the alternator.

A side note about charging from the alternator. I have a diesel pusher. The alternator is in the rear, the solenoid is in the very front of the RV and the batteries are in the bedroom in the rear. I believe the cable that Winnebago has from the alternator to solenoid to back to the battery is #2 wire. So I doubt that I would be able to get 75 to 100 amps to go from the alternator down the 55 feet of wire anyways. Also I need to add in the return path which further reduces the max current possible. The same thing happens with truck pulling 5th wheel trailers. Trying to get any decent amount of current down the 10 gauge wire to the house batteries in the trailer is difficult.

As far as the life of the lithium batteries. I am going on 5 years on these batteries and have not see any degradation in the capacity.

Info about our battery use:

-- In 2016 the summer after I installed the batteries, we took a 4 1/2 month trip to Alaska (not counting the travel to/from Texas to the Washington/Canada border) and only had electric hookups for 2 nights. The rest of the time was boondocking, parking lot overnight parking, or in public campgrounds that didn't have hookups. I only ran the generator for 2 hours on one day, because of multiple days of heavy cloud cover, to help charge the batteries. The cost savings from not spending $35-%50 a night paid for the lithium batteries. Not to mention the freedom of not needing to make reservations, or being jammed into an RV Park with the only view is the RV's around you.

-- Our daily battery usage is from about 75AH to about 175AH. If it is cloudy we are more careful about our usage.
-- We watched TV most evenings on our Alaska trip using the Wineguard Trav'ler satellite dish with a Dish Network receiver (that uses about 4 amps of 12V DC through the inverter). Local channels work really well with Dish Network.
-- My wife has a handicapped electric scooter which we charge through the inverter.
-- Nightly use of a CPAP. (humidifier turned off it uses about 7-9AH a night)
-- We use the microwave to heat things up or defrost foods.
-- Keeping our laptops & cell phones charged
-- LED lights for every light fixture that is used on a regular basis.
-- We now have an Instant Pot which we occasionally use while dry camping. It uses very little power once it gets up to pressure.

The pleasure we get from "never" needing to be concerned about fully charging my battery bank, not needing to run the generator, being able to travel w/o needing to have reservations at a RV Park (not to mention not having to be jammed into an RV Park) is immense.

Side notes about Solar Panels.
-- They charge ANYTIME there is light. We see an amp or two or maybe 5 before the sunlight actually hits the panels and in the late afternoon as well.
-- Cloudy days: we see some number of amps coming from the panels. It all depends on how thick the clouds are.
-- It is not just the time between 10am and 2pm in full sunlight that the panels charge. I mention this as so much seems to be written about full sunlight from 10 to 2 every day.

Every little bit helps. If you get 10-40 AH per day from these low light conditions, that really goes a long way. Of course it is not going to get your lead acid batteries back to 100%, but with lithium all I care about is keeping the batteries charged well enough to use. (to me that is about about 20%-30% SOC by morning)

Another side note: If your lead acid batteries are down to 40% SOC your battery voltage is pretty low about 11.9V. Turn on your coffee pot/toaster/or microwave and you could get a low voltage cut off on your inverter because the load pulled the battery voltage down so low. That doesn't happen with Lithium.

As I wrote earlier, lithium is not for everyone, but for those of use who don't like to run generators or are in areas we are not allowed to use them and those of us who dry camp extensively, they are wonderful.

If anyone is interested in more detail about our Alaska trip, I have an extensive writeup about the trip in our blog that you can find in our signature line.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by al1florida

Second: There is the other group of RV'ers who occasionally dry camp over night or for 2-3 days, such as a night at Walmart or at a NF or SP campground. Also they may only do this 2-4 times a year. These RV'ers really don't "need" Lithium as they will be back on shore power to get their batteries back to 100% before any sulfate damage occurs.

As you say, no two RVers have identical usage patterns and so have different needs. However we are in your second group as we generally dry camp for no longer than 2 days at any one site, although we do so more than 4 times a year, and we found that 2 wet cell batteries were just not enough to allow us to do so given the draw of our compressor refrigerator and my wife's desire to run her electric tea kettle and toaster before meals.

Our general usage can be as high as 150 AH per day and the solar panels may only restore half of that, depending upon the time of the year and where we are parked. Wet cells would be drawn down too far to allow us to make it through 2 days and so we needed either additional batteries or Lithium, and chose the latter, getting 2 BB 100AH batteries. Even so I sometimes wish that we had bought larger capacity batteries because I sometimes find us getting close to sundown with only perhaps 50% battery power left.

I have thought about adding a 3rd battery or, alternately, adding more solar. Or both. As a general rule we don't stop anyplace with shore power except during certain trips when we either don't have a choice (like our yearly trip to South Padre Island) or where the specific place we are going supplies shore power.

[al1florida]

Quote:
Originally Posted by al1florida View Post
Second: There is the other group of RV'ers who occasionally dry camp over night or for 2-3 days, such as a night at Walmart or at a NF or SP campground. Also they may only do this 2-4 times a year. These RV'ers really don't "need" Lithium as they will be back on shore power to get their batteries back to 100% before any sulfate damage occurs.

Originally Posted by AJMike

As you say, no two RVers have identical usage patterns and so have different needs. However we are in your second group as we generally dry camp for no longer than 2 days at any one site, although we do so more than 4 times a year, and we found that 2 wet cell batteries were just not enough to allow us to do so given the draw of our compressor refrigerator and my wife's desire to run her electric tea kettle and toaster before meals.

Our general usage can be as high as 150 AH per day and the solar panels may only restore half of that, depending upon the time of the year and where we are parked. Wet cells would be drawn down too far to allow us to make it through 2 days and so we needed either additional batteries or Lithium, and chose the latter, getting 2 BB 100AH batteries. Even so I sometimes wish that we had bought larger capacity batteries because I sometimes find us getting close to sundown with only perhaps 50% battery power left.

I have thought about adding a 3rd battery or, alternately, adding more solar. Or both. As a general rule we don't stop anyplace with shore power except during certain trips when we either don't have a choice (like our yearly trip to South Padre Island) or where the specific place we are going supplies shore power.

There always variables that need to be considered when reading someone's opinion (in this case my opinion). You and others who have fairly high power requirements, such as a compressor fridge, certainly are better off with lithium than lead acid, unless you could easily go up to 4 or more golf cart batteries rather than the 2 batteries that came with your RV. Many people just run their generators. I know from reading some of your other posts that you camp in places that don't allow generators, so that is another reason it is good for you to have lithium.

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by al1florida

First: The vast majority of RV'ers never or seldom dry camp or boondock. The just go from electric hookup to electric hookups. So lead acid batteries work extremely well for them.

Maybe this is a regional thing. I live in CA, and the vast majority of camping here is dry camping. Sure, there are some Thousand Trail, KOA and independent private campgrounds, but mostly it's regional parks, national parks/forest, state parks and beaches, etc. And those are 90% or more no hookups. I've heard folks from back east ask "why would you camp somewhere without hookups"? Out here, the most desirable locations, lakes, rivers, beaches, etc, are unlikely to have such amenities.

Obviously, size matters too. Smaller Class C's and TT's are more likely to dry camp, while Class A's, 5th Wheels and larger TT's are more likely to seek out hookups. So, our private campgrounds and the few public ones with hookups tend to be filled with larger RVs, while the more "rustic" locations in the national and state forests tend to be full of smaller RVs and tent campers. Of course, there are exceptions. The OP's Intent 28Y, like my 2401RG, is sort of in the middle. When dry camping, I'm usually one of the bigger RVs, but in parks with hookups, I'm frequently surrounded by larger rigs.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Maybe this is a regional thing.

This is certainly so.

In Texas, where it's 95 to 105 for 4 to 5 months of the year, air conditioning is really mandatory. Heck, I've seen it over 100 in February! So, Corp of Engineers and State Parks all have at least a shore power hookup, though it may only be 30-amp at some parks.

Also, in a state as large as Texas you'd think boondocking would be common, but there is very little public land. With the oil and cattle booms of the 20th Century most all of the land here was purchased by people and corporations. Finding boondocking is really rare - a few city parks offer it. Interstate Rest Stops allow overnight stays. And the beaches on the Gulf of Mexico have some as well. There's not much else.

Also, Texas is so large that it can take a day and a half to get to a neighboring state. And, then we're back to the HEAT you have to endure just to make it to cooler locales.

If you go East from Texas there's hardly any Public Lands and you really need to head West to New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and Montana to find abundant Public Land and true boondocking.

[DavidM]

We are Old Navy's northeastern counterpart. Although commercial RV parks are available in the NE states, rustic public camgrounds with no hookups are much more prevalent here and that is where we like to camp.

If you dry camp with an absorption fridge in moderate weather where you don't need the furnace or Maxxair fans you will use as little as 20 Ah daily. More, maybe as much as 50 Ah with a single Maxxair fan going all night, TV watching for a few hours and device recharging.

A dry camper with a compressor fridge such as AJMike will use 100-150 Ahs daily as he reports. If you have a large residential fridge this will boost it to more than 200 Ah daily, but if you have one of these you really belong in a full hookup RV park.

So we are the first type who use 20-50 Ah daily but closer to 20. With 200 Ah of lead acid AGM batteries we can go about three nights and stay at 50% SOC or better.

If we had an RV compressor fridge like AJMike we would need Li batteries to go that long as does AJMike, supplemented with solar.

I don't know what I would do if I used 200+ Ahs daily. Lots of batteries, solar if not shaded, a big charger and running the genset several hours a day is what it would take.

David

[al1florida]

The main thoughts I was trying to get across is: For those who just spend a night or 2, a few times a year usually don't need to upgrade to lithium.

Even those who spend 3-4 nights dry camping and then back on shore power, and do this several times a year may not need lithium unless they have power usage that the lead acid batteries can't support. One or two of the recent replies seem to support that thought.

Then there are those who spend a lot of time dry camping. We have and we do just that. We also have dry camped extensively with lead acid batteries. We are far more comfortable doing this with lithium than we ever did with lead acid.