Not Charging - Inverter Toasted?

[Tank]

Hi, All,

The symptoms are:
1. Batteries are not being charged from either shore power or generator.
2. Power is available at the hot side and circuit breaker side of in the Load Center (Main Breaker box).
3. NO power is available in the Inverter Breaker Box.
4. NO power is available at outlets. Neither CGI will reset.
5. There is a circuit from the "Inverter" circuit breaker on the main panel to the Inverter Breaker Box. On that circuit there is a switch that is located inside the Inverter. It's labeled "NC" and "NO", so I would guess that it's a relay that seems to be energized by the "Aux Battery" switch on the dash.
6. The "Charging" LED is illuminated on the Xantrex control panel, as are the LEDs for the voltage level (12 volts) and the power share (30 Amp).
7. No power to the EMS control panel unless the Aux Batt switch is pressed.
8. Pressing the Aux Batt switch does not change the charge condition of the batteries.

I'm inclined to think that the Inverter/Charger is bad, but I would really rather confirm that before shelling out $1,300 bucks for a "swing test."

How do I confirm that, either the inverter isn't charging, OR the charge isn't reaching the batteries?

[BobC]

If you don't have it, download the manual for your inverter/charger. It should be available from the manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if the inverter/charger doesn't have an onboard fuse or circuit breaker. It might be outside or inside. Don't guess as to the function of the NO/NC switch, look it up.

The easiest way to determine if a charge is reaching the batteries is to measure the battery voltage at the batteries with a multimeter with shore power off. That will ensure there is no charging voltage reaching the batteries. Reconnect to shore power and measure the battery voltage again. If the inverter/charger is charging, and your batteries aren't at full charge, the voltage will have increased to a charging level. If your batteries are fully charged then you should read a float voltage if the inverter/charger is working. The actual levels of these voltages is dependent on your inverter/charger and its settings. If the voltage is unchanged, then your inverter/charger isn't functioning properly. It's highly unlikely that there's a problem with the cables except at either end due to corrosion or bad terminals.

[Morich]

When dealing with battery and charging questions,
I like to verify the basics first and thenwe know that the other parts of the system have a better chance at working as they do require battery power.

Quote:
8. Pressing the Aux Batt switch does not change the charge condition of the batteries.
If this means the voltage doesn't change, there seems to be a problem other than the inverter charger!

I might suggest starting with the gizmo which connects the two battery strings together for two purposes. That is the mode solenoid and we can test it pretty easy if we have a voltmeter by watching the battery while somebody helps.

After the RV has set for a while without being plugged or chargers being used so that the batteries are stable and the voltages mean more. Best if little power for lights, etc is being used. We want to know not only that the charge is getting to the batteries but that they are holding that charge.
But if the battery is down, go ahead without worry about it, as long as you can get the engine to start, you can tell a lot.

Step one, test all batteries voltage and maybe write the levels down.
What we would like to do is see that the two batteries are getting connected together when we either start the engine, as that is how we get some charge to the coach batteries as we drive, Or they are connected together while we push the dash button to give a weak start battery a "jump start" from the coach side.

So most of the time one set will be higher than the other set and if we watch the voltage as we start the engine, that voltage will drop as we crank, then suddenly jump higher as it gets the charge from the alternator!
As we rev the engine a bit, we often see the voltage on all the batteries jump higher in tune with the engine speed. That means they are connecting together correctly.

Second big item we need to work is the battery disconnect switch and relay as we can't get lots of other things to work if those are not doing it right!

So what happens when you have a light on inside and push the disconnect switch one way or the other to connect/ disconnect things? It should work, lights off, lights on, if all is right.
Reason for asking/checking this is that the switch can be good, we can push it the right way, but if the relay doesn't have enough power, it may not move from the last position and that can mean the charging from the inverter charger doesn't get to it. This relay is a "latching relay" that has a magnet to hold it in the last position, so if not enough battery power, it may be off and stay off until it gets better battery!

Start with testing those and see if they prove out okay before moving to trickier things like the charging from the inverter charger?

I suspect mode solenoid is not connecting right and the coach betteries may be toolow,so that the disconnect is staying disconnected, even after you push the button the right way.
But all that needs a bit of testing to get closer!

Big Note?
When testing the voltages, put the probe both on the post itself and also the cable clamp to see that they read the same to avoid chasing something when it is just the clamps not making good contact.

[Tank]

Originally Posted by BobC

If you don't have it, download the manual for your inverter/charger. It should be available from the manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if the inverter/charger doesn't have an onboard fuse or circuit breaker. It might be outside or inside. Don't guess as to the function of the NO/NC switch, look it up.

I do have the manual, and it only describes the attachment of wires. Nothing about the interior wiring. I pulled the cover off and didn't find anything unusual, no smells of burning, etc. There appears to be an issue with the cable between the inverter and the control panel getting cut, burned, smashed, etc., so I'm going to track that down.

Originally Posted by BobC

The easiest way to determine if a charge is reaching the batteries is to measure the battery voltage at the batteries with a multimeter with shore power off. That will ensure there is no charging voltage reaching the batteries. Reconnect to shore power and measure the battery voltage again. If the inverter/charger is charging, and your batteries aren't at full charge, the voltage will have increased to a charging level. If your batteries are fully charged then you should read a float voltage if the inverter/charger is working. The actual levels of these voltages is dependent on your inverter/charger and its settings. If the voltage is unchanged, then your inverter/charger isn't functioning properly. It's highly unlikely that there's a problem with the cables except at either end due to corrosion or bad terminals.

Basically under all conditions EXCEPT the main motor running, there is no elevated voltage going to the batteries. With the engine running I'm getting 13.47 - 13.8.

I agree about the cables. If the cables to the battery were not connected, then the inverter side wouldn't function at all. And the inverter side is working fine (see below).

However, and this was mentioned by my camping buddy after a few adult beverages, if the inverter isn't getting the shore power, then it can't charge the batteries! Why didn't I think of that? In fact, the ONLY 120v appliance that works (on shore power/generator without the inverter) is the washer/dryer...but that branches out of the circuit BEFORE power goes to the inverter. But, it was too late in the evening and I didn't want to pull the inverter again after drinking. I'll check it today.

Thanks for the response. It's always good to get someone else to make sure you're reasoning things out correctly.

[Tank]

Final Update: Charger side of the device is inoperative and cannot be repaired. I've ordered a new inverter charger, which will be here tomorrow.

Things I learned:
1. The I/C only charged the house batteries. The chassis batteries are charged by the alternator. (I'm going to add the trickle thingy to fix this).
2. The tech that I talked to at Inverter Service Center was EXCELLENT! Told me what to check, where to check it, and when to call it quits. Didn't try to convince me to take it in for service.
3. Technology has come a long way, and today's I/C's are better, faster, and cheaper.

Bob and Richard, thanks for your help!

[Morich]

Bad that something has actually failed and needs replaced but it happens and I'm glad to get a report. Always good to hear you got good tech support from builder.

The coach not charging the start battery is pretty standard if there is nothing added or supplied to do something better.

But one thing to keep clear in mind because it is such a common item is the way the dash switch and engine running work to connect the two battery groups together.

When running, the RV engine alternator is charging the start but there is the Mode solenoid in some form which automatically should connect that group to the coach group. That lets us sneak a little charge for the time we are driving and it puts charge back into both battery groups.

But the mode solenoid also has a switch somewhere in the dash area so that if we get caught with a weak start battery, we push the Aux, /boost/ etc switch and get them connected to "jump" the weak one as long as we have the momentary switch pushed.

A quickie way to test this is working is to put a meter on the coach batteries and as we rev the engine, the voltage goes up and down proving they are connected.

That may be the most frequent area that needs attention on our RV as the solenoid gets pulled every time we start the engine and that can lead to burned contacts from arcing!

The newish RV have changed to a solid stat form and it's still open if it is better or not.

[Tank]

Originally Posted by Morich

Bad that something has actually failed and needs replaced but it happens and I'm glad to get a report. Always good to hear you got good tech support from builder.

The coach not charging the start battery is pretty standard if there is nothing added or supplied to do something better.

But one thing to keep clear in mind because it is such a common item is the way the dash switch and engine running work to connect the two battery groups together.

When running, the RV engine alternator is charging the start but there is the Mode solenoid in some form which automatically should connect that group to the coach group. That lets us sneak a little charge for the time we are driving and it puts charge back into both battery groups.

But the mode solenoid also has a switch somewhere in the dash area so that if we get caught with a weak start battery, we push the Aux, /boost/ etc switch and get them connected to "jump" the weak one as long as we have the momentary switch pushed.

A quickie way to test this is working is to put a meter on the coach batteries and as we rev the engine, the voltage goes up and down proving they are connected.

That may be the most frequent area that needs attention on our RV as the solenoid gets pulled every time we start the engine and that can lead to burned contacts from arcing!

The newish RV have changed to a solid stat form and it's still open if it is better or not.

Correct on all counts. I did get the house batteries charged while driving. But with no charger output while parked, nothing was getting charged.

[Tank]

Final Update: Replaced the Freedom 15 with the Freedom XC 2000.

Getting the 15 out was a bit of a PITA. Dropped all 4 negative battery cables from the batteries and got to work. Disconnecting the 120vac in/out wires was easy. Made sure to mark IN from OUT. Ground and positive cables came out easy. Had to break the circuit board to get to the nut that secured the negative battery cable. Other than that, easy peasy.

The footprint for the 2000 is larger, but the profile is lower. I had to move the water pump to the other side of the divider (whoever thought putting a water pump near an inverter needs to apply some risk management techniques). Had to drill out the lugs on the battery cables from 1/4 to 5/16. Again, easy peasy.

Now, Xantrex must have learned from prior experience, because attaching the 120vac in and out leads and the 12vdc leads could not be easier! Double checked all connections and then re-connected the negative battery lugs. Went inside and plugged in a small fan. Kicked on the inverter, and voila! Inverting accomplished.

Went back outside and plugged in the shore power, turned on the breaker, then eyeballed the inverter. Fans were on, no sparks, no smoke. Went inside to check the control panel. Charger was pumping out 14+ volts and shore power was bypassing the inverter! Fan was still running!!



Fastened the IC to the shelf with some self tapping screws, policed up my tools, and took a break!

[Wayne M]

When did Winnebago add the trik-l-charge to their coaches,
My 2008 had it, and now the 2015,
According to Winni, the house batteries charge first and when full charges the service batteries.
Curious!

[Rick 99037]

I also wonder when they started putting the smarter inverters in, that have better battery charging and maintenance, via multiple battery charging modes in them.
I doubt my 2005 has one though.

[macnut]

My 2013 had a one stage (dumb) converter/charger. But my 2017 had a 4 stage (smart) one.