New Technology Solar Panel Review

[Marine359]

Very impressive Fred,
Looks like we will be taking divergent paths with our upgrades. My 100/30 Victron is maxed out at 3x 100 series CIGS. If I add a fourth, I’ll have to rewire to 2x S/P. Plus, I’ve got another 100w portable through sidewall. But I don’t see solar as the weak link. It’s our wimpy 170ah LFP. Adding more solar won’t be efficient. But if I add a 2Kw powerstation paired with its own 200w portable, I think I could camp off grid forever. Close to pulling trigger on an Ecoflow Delta 2 Max bundle with powerstation and 200w portable panel.

Hope you get everything you want out of your new CIGS.

BTW: Tested running 13,500 easy start equipped roof A/C on batteries. My Xantrex handles the load just fine, but it draws 100amps (1,200w). So, my existing 2Kw LFP could only run it for less than two hours. My thinking is, by doubling my available watt hours from adding a 2Kw powerstation, I could get up to 4 hours of A/C use on batteries. This may be the answer when we are dry camping. At night during quiet hours, just enough A/C to run off and on during night during high ambients to allow us a good night’s sleep. It’s a real issue when we drycamp in Key West. Is this a crazy idea?

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Thats 400w too many amps for a 30amp controller.. and with a PWM controller you are wasting available power. MPPT controllers handle the voltage that is higher than your battery voltage by delivering more current. PWM controllers discard excess voltage from your panels that exceeds the battery voltage. Plus at over 30-amps wiring size is a real issue with the standard 10ga wiring Winnebago uses to pre-wire for solar.

You’ll get much better results running series/parallel, to increase the voltage, into a MPPT controller such as a Victron 100/50. And it’s safer, too. Two 100/30 MPPT controllers would be even better if you want to separate the two panel types and run parallel only.

Well...I don't know if I agree with all of your statements.

First, according to my SC-2030 controller specifications, it can safely handle up to 45 amps, though it will only allow 31 amps through the charger. That's why I'm going to divide my panels into two separate strings (400W and 500W).

As for MPPT verse PWM, I agree MPPT has advantages over PWM. But, I like my current Bogart Engineering setup with their TM-2030 Trimetric battery monitor and WF-2030 WIFI module, so I will double up on their SC-2030 solar controllers, allowing for up to 62 amps of charging.

As for 10 AWG wiring, I agree, but my Micro Minnie didn't come pre-wired for solar, that was a later addition to the Micro Minnies. I added my own wiring and I'm currently using 8 AWG from the roof to the controller. 8 AWG can handle up to 50 amps at 167 degrees F. Once I have two SC-2030 controllers installed, I will run two sets of 10 AWG from the roof to the controllers.

[creativepart]

OK, we all have our preferences.

I do know when I went from a PWM controller to a MPPT controller that it was as if I added an additional panel to my system due to the increased amps put into my batteries daily.

I looked up your Controller and the spec's I read said:

For 12 or 24 V battery systems: AGM, Gel or Liquid Electrolyte batteries.

Up to 30 amps maximum solar current. It will reduce output sufficient to protect charger if the solar output is greater.

Four 135 watt solar panels for 12V systems (eight at 24V) can be accommodated.

These specs don't mention Lithium charging and you have Battleborn LFPs... have the specs changed on this controller?

Also, as typical for 30-amp controllers they spec 540 watts as the max wattage for the controller. Yes, it does say that over 30-amps it will just discard the current. So, your plan to add another controller will solve that issue. But, right now 900w is WAY over the limitations of the controller.

Your cabling sounds pretty adequate for your application, which is good.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Very impressive Fred,
Looks like we will be taking divergent paths with our upgrades. My 100/30 Victron is maxed out at 3x 100 series CIGS. If I add a fourth, I’ll have to rewire to 2x S/P. Plus, I’ve got another 100w portable through sidewall. But I don’t see solar as the weak link. It’s our wimpy 170ah LFP. Adding more solar won’t be efficient. But if I add a 2Kw powerstation paired with its own 200w portable, I think I could camp off grid forever. Close to pulling trigger on an Ecoflow Delta 2 Max bundle with powerstation and 200w portable panel.

Hope you get everything you want out of your new CIGS.

BTW: Tested running 13,500 easy start equipped roof A/C on batteries. My Xantrex handles the load just fine, but it draws 100amps (1,200w). So, my existing 2Kw LFP could only run it for less than two hours. My thinking is, by doubling my available watt hours from adding a 2Kw powerstation, I could get up to 4 hours of A/C use on batteries. This may be the answer when we are dry camping. At night during quiet hours, just enough A/C to run off and on during night during high ambients to allow us a good night’s sleep. It’s a real issue when we drycamp in Key West. Is this a crazy idea?

Thanks Jim.

Yea, I guess for now we will be taking different paths with our upgrades. I'm more concerned with charging my current battery bank as fast as possible and solar will be one of those sources.

Besides, I just like trying different things and I hadn't come across anyone installing panels on their front cap so this is more of an experiment than anything else.

You know this is all your fault...Once you posted your CIGS review and brought CIGS to my attention and I read how durable they appear to to be, the wheels started turning.

I run my A/C on batteries all the time when I'm at home working inside the camper. My draws are similar to yours, around 1200 - 1300 watts. I do have a 30 amp receptacle I could plug into, but unless I plan on being in the camper for more than a couple of hours, I don't worry about it.

I don't think it's a crazy idea to be able to run the A/C off batteries throughout the night as long as you can still make coffee in the morning! That will probably be one of my goals in the future seeing how advanced the power stations are becoming.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by creativepart

OK, we all have our preferences.

I do know when I went from a PWM controller to a MPPT controller that it was as if I added an additional panel to my system due to the increased amps put into my batteries daily.

I looked up your Controller and the spec's I read said:


These specs don't mention Lithium charging and you have Battleborn LFPs... have the specs changed on this controller?

Also, as typical for 30-amp controllers they spec 540 watts as the max wattage for the controller. Yes, it does say that over 30-amps it will just discard the current. So, your plan to add another controller will solve that issue. But, right now 900w is WAY over the limitations of the controller.

Your cabling sounds pretty adequate for your application, which is good.

From the faq section on the Bogart Engineering website. (I use both the TM-2030 and SC-2030.)

Q6. Will your SC-2030 solar charger or TM-2030 battery monitor work with Lithium batteries?
Yes, the TM-2030 and SC-2030 will work with lithium batteries.

When used by itself in the stand-alone mode (no TM-2030 connected), the SC-2030’s AGM profile is very close to the profile widely recommended for lithium LFP batteries. The AGM profile is: Absorb stage at 14.3V and float stage at 13.2V.

When used with a TM-2030, set the following parameters:

Set “Absorb” voltage P1 = 14.4 Volts.

Set “Absorb current before float P2 = 2.0%
Set “Capacity” P3 = capacity of the battery bank.

Set User Level in P7 to L3
Set “Max Absorb time” P14 = 0.3 hours.
Set Finish Stage voltage P15 = 13.2 volts (not used for charging lithium batteries).
Set “float voltage” P16 = 13.2 volts.
Set Overcharge % P20 to 0% Set ‘Finish stage current limit’ P21 to 0%
Temperature compensation (recommended for lead acid batteries) are NOT be used for lithium. This means that you do not have to buy the optional temperature sensor and you should not connect it to the SC-2030 charger.

From the Battle Born website blog. (Setup Specifics for BB Batteries)

Setting Up a Trimetric Battery Monitor with Battle Born Batteries
July 6, 2017

When used in combination with Bogart Engineering Solar Charger, the Trimetric TM-2030 Battery Monitor allows the user to precisely alter the charging parameters used on the Battle Born Batteries.

Here is how to set up a Trimetric TM-2030 battery monitor and Bogart Engineering solar charge controller to operate with Battle Born Batteries:

1. Press and hold Select until P1 appears.

2. At the same time, briefly press Select and Reset and then let go. A green light on the unit will flash, signifying that you are in Change Mode. Press Reset to change P1’s value to 14.4. Press Select to exit Change Mode. This same process will be used to adjust each of the following parameters.

3. Press Select to move to P2. As in step 2, change P2’s value to 2. Press Select to exit Change Mode.

4. Change P3’s value to the capacity of your Battle Born Battery bank size and Change P10 to 98.

Here are the values mentioned above that the charge controller needs to be set to:

P1: 14.4

P2: 2

P3: Change this number to match the size of your Battle Born Battery bank’s capacity. For example, if you are only using one battery, P3 would be set to 100 because you have a 100 Ah capacity.

P10: 98

Here are the complete specs for the SC-2030 controller.

Technical Specifications:
Regulation type...........................................PWM
Solar panel open-circuit voltage..................55V maximum
Solar panel nominal voltage.......................12V - 24V, matched to the battery voltage: Vpp about 16-18+Volts for 12-
24V systems, Vpp about 32-36+ for 24V systems
Nominal Battery voltage............................12V - 24V
Required operational current.....................While sun shining: 25mA. Solar dark: 1mA max
Maximum Battery voltage............. ...........35V
Battery type.............................................. .AGM, Gel, or flooded lead-acid
Solar-panel peak current...........................Max 31A for full efficiency. May be safely used with panels up to 45A,
however charging current will be reduced to protect charger. (My max current is <42A with 900W)
MINIMUM in/out power efficiency at 30A: ...97.5% (12V systems) 98.5% (24 V systems)
MINIMUM in/out power efficiency at 15A: ...99%
Battery capacity.........................................1 0 to 10,000 amp hours
Terminal block wire gauge.....................Up to 6 AWG. (Larger stranded cables you can remove some strands to fit)
Charging profiles.....................................Three stages and optional fourth stage
Ambient temperature................................0 ºF to +140 ºF (−18 ºC to +60 ºC)
Dimensions........................................ ...... in.: 3 width X 4 1/4 length X 2 3/4 depth; cm: 7.6 width X 10.8 length X 7
depth

[creativepart]

That's great that Battleborn have expressly described their settings for this product.

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by Fred 2106DS

In the near future, I will be adding a second SC-2030 controller for just the CIGS panels since they operate at a much higher voltage (25V) than the hard panels (17.7V to 19.25V). Due to this voltage difference, in actuality I only have the equivalent of 742 watts of solar, not 900 watts. By separating the CIGS panels from the hard panels and each having their own controller I will gain 145.5 watts of solar, giving me an actual total of 887.5 watts of solar. Theoretically, with separate controllers, I could see a peak charge rate of 41 amps under ideal conditions.

Because of the way PWM SCC's work, panel voltage (Vmp) should be just a few volts over battery voltage. This is why "12V panels" operate at a Vmp of 17V-19V, so the PWM controller can operate at 13V-14.8V to charge a typical 12V battery with some room for less than full irradiance. Your panels will be operating at battery voltage instead of the Vmp of 25V. Assuming charging at 14.4V and panel Imp of 4A, you will be getting roughly 60W per panel maximum, or 300W total from the new array.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Because of the way PWM SCC's work, panel voltage (Vmp) should be just a few volts over battery voltage. This is why "12V panels" operate at a Vmp of 17V-19V, so the PWM controller can operate at 13V-14.8V to charge a typical 12V battery with some room for less than full irradiance. Your panels will be operating at battery voltage instead of the Vmp of 25V. Assuming charging at 14.4V and panel Imp of 4A, you will be getting roughly 60W per panel maximum, or 300W total from the new array.

Thanks for your input.

Under actual testing, I'm seeing 385W.

Here's my calculations...assuming a standard 100W panel at 18V will produce 5.6A (5 panels x 5.6A = 28A)...in actual testing by just by laying my 100W CIGS panels in my yard and connecting them all in parallel, at mid-day I recorded a maximum charge rate of 21.5A (21.5A / 28A = 77% x 500W = 385W). I would have probably saw a little better output from the CIGS if I would have elevated them so they were directly facing the sun.

When I decided to purchase the CIGS for mounting on the front cap, due to their stated flexibility and durability, I was expecting a maximum charge rate of 4A from each panel which has proved to be true based on my testing.

At some point in the future, because I'm curious, I would like to try a MPPT controller to see what the actual additional charge rate would be. Seeing that theoretical outcomes are nice but actual outcomes are what counts.

[lenore]

Ok will throw my two cents in. I originally had 200 watts of solar and PWM zamp controller. I upgraded to 400 watts of solar and a mppt controller. My battery is a lithium 280ah that I built. I was running all parallel and it would take most of the day to charge fully. When I switch to series parallel I am fully charged on a sunny day by 12 noon. Also this increased start voltage early enough in the morning to commence charging as the 12volt would not start until the voltage reached 12 volts. With the mppt and 24 volts coming into the controller the 12 volt threshold starts earlier in the day giving me more charge time. Highly suggest the mppt and running series parallel to increase the working voltage. It also decreases the current through the wiring from panels to controller. (my Vita was wired from factory with 8 guage wire, Yea) On good days I have seen 18to19 amps coming into my batteries with the 400 watts of panel on the roof. I find it interesting that I am charging my 280ah batteries with no problems with the 400 watts of solar. My refrigerator is a AC only residential and is always on and while stored next to my house I have not plugged in to keep batteries charged in the last 6 months. Though I have made a few excursions in that period. Those CIGS are very interesting, but I am only using Renogy panels presently. My two sunpower originals are not installed, (one failed) so I removed the flexible panels. I use track system to installed the Renogy panels so replacement is easy.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by lenore

Ok will throw my two cents in. I originally had 200 watts of solar and PWM zamp controller. I upgraded to 400 watts of solar and a mppt controller. My battery is a lithium 280ah that I built. I was running all parallel and it would take most of the day to charge fully. When I switch to series parallel I am fully charged on a sunny day by 12 noon. Also this increased start voltage early enough in the morning to commence charging as the 12volt would not start until the voltage reached 12 volts. With the mppt and 24 volts coming into the controller the 12 volt threshold starts earlier in the day giving me more charge time. Highly suggest the mppt and running series parallel to increase the working voltage. It also decreases the current through the wiring from panels to controller. (my Vita was wired from factory with 8 guage wire, Yea) On good days I have seen 18to19 amps coming into my batteries with the 400 watts of panel on the roof. I find it interesting that I am charging my 280ah batteries with no problems with the 400 watts of solar. My refrigerator is a AC only residential and is always on and while stored next to my house I have not plugged in to keep batteries charged in the last 6 months. Though I have made a few excursions in that period. Those CIGS are very interesting, but I am only using Renogy panels presently. My two sunpower originals are not installed, (one failed) so I removed the flexible panels. I use track system to installed the Renogy panels so replacement is easy.

Lenore, Thanks for sharing your experience.

I'm running a second test today with the same setup as the first test. The only difference is that I started at 7:30 this morning with my 200AH lithium batteries at 10%. Today is supposed to be more or less a full sun day.

Next week, I hope to be able to run these same tests using a second SC-2030 controller as described in one of my previous post.

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by Fred 2106DS

Here's my calculations...assuming a standard 100W panel at 18V will produce 5.6A (5 panels x 5.6A = 28A)...in actual testing by just by laying my 100W CIGS panels in my yard and connecting them all in parallel, at mid-day I recorded a maximum charge rate of 21.5A (21.5A / 28A = 77% x 500W = 385W).

Where did you get the 18V and 5.6A figure for your panels? I looked at 100W BougeRV CIGS adhesive panels on the MFR website and they were listed at Vmp=25V and Imp=4A. With your PWM SCC, 21.5A at (assumed) 14.4V, you would be getting 310W. If you multiply Battery Voltage X Charge Current on your Trimetric Battery Monitor, that will tell you the output of your Charge Controller in watts. Make sure to turn off any loads.

Originally Posted by Fred 2106DS

At some point in the future, because I'm curious, I would like to try a MPPT controller to see what the actual additional charge rate would be. Seeing that theoretical outcomes are nice but actual outcomes are what counts.

In the end, if the 2 PWM controllers do everything you want them to do, and you have the equipment you like and are familiar with, you essentially have both form and function.

[Fred 2106DS]

I finished the second test of my solar setup today. Everything was the same as before as far as the solar setup goes. I started the test at 7:30 this morning with my 200AH lithium batteries at 10% or 20AH. I finished at 4:30 with my batteries at 100%.

Today was mostly a full sun day with some haze in the atmosphere caused by smoke from the forest fires in Nova Scotia. Temperatures started in the mid 50s and ended in the high 70s.

Data Summary:
Cumulative Amp Hours = 186A / 9 hours (previous test: 168A / 9 hours)
Cumulative Watt Hours = 2,499W / 9 hours (previous test: 2,257W / 9 hours)
Peak Charging Amps = 32.10A (higher than the controller’s rated maximum output of 31 amps) (previous test: 32.64A)
Average Charging Amps = 20.67A / hour (previous test: 18.67A / hour)
Average Charging Watts = 277.67W / hour (previous test: 250.78W / hour)

(The previous test was started at 8:00 AM with the batteries at 19% or 38AH and ended at 5:00 PM with the batteries at 100%.)

Today's test pretty much backed up the data from the first test. Next test will be with two SC-2030s separating the panels into two separate strings.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Where did you get the 18V and 5.6A figure for your panels? I looked at 100W BougeRV CIGS adhesive panels on the MFR website and they were listed at Vmp=25V and Imp=4A. With your PWM SCC, 21.5A at (assumed) 14.4V, you would be getting 310W. If you multiply Battery Voltage X Charge Current on your Trimetric Battery Monitor, that will tell you the output of your Charge Controller in watts. Make sure to turn off any loads.



In the end, if the 2 PWM controllers do everything you want them to do, and you have the equipment you like and are familiar with, you essentially have both form and function.

The 18V and 5.6A wasn't from my panels. In your previous post you stated, "12V panels" operate at a Vmp of 17V-19V..." I assumed you were talking about a standard 100W glass panel, so I used 18V to come up with 5.6A. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Also, I'm sorry that I wasn't calculating solar output correctly. I'll work on that.

I don't expect to see the full potential of the panels I have, since more than half are mounted on the front cap which means they will never see the same amount of sun as the roof mounted panels see. I'm looking to just supplement the roof panels as much as I can without using ground deployed panels. I had a 120W Zamp ground deployed folding glass panel and to me it was a PITA to deploy and store. I ended up separating those panels and mounting them on the roof.

[Old Navy]

Sorry, not trying to be critical, just providing some info I hoped would be helpful. As for the ground deployed panels, I have a similar 200W "suitcase" that I'm also getting really tired of lugging around and deploying, not to mention worrying about theft every time we leave camp to hike/bike/sight see. But it is nice to have when the RV is in the shade.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Sorry, not trying to be critical, just providing some info I hoped would be helpful. As for the ground deployed panels, I have a similar 200W "suitcase" that I'm also getting really tired of lugging around and deploying, not to mention worrying about theft every time we leave camp to hike/bike/sight see. But it is nice to have when the RV is in the shade.

Sorry, I didn't mean for my post to come across like that.

I appreciate you taking the time to point out where I went wrong in calculating solar input. Now, I have a better understanding for calculating solar and how to interpret the results.

Anytime I post something that you question, please comment. I don't take it personally.

Fred