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Old 01-17-2021, 07:29 PM   #1
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My RV is in storage... And the daily charge = 11.25A/Day * Does this sound right?

When I put my 2004 Itasca Horizon 40AD in storage, this is a summary of how I handled my battery management needs:

* I installed a Victron 17A charger in my bedroom. (See Picture.)

* Then I ran the power cord outside my bedroom "Tip-out Windows" and used a towel for insulation between the window panes.

* And I connected the Victron power cord to an extension cord... and ran the 25' cord to the 120V power outlet.

Today I askes someone to check on my RV in storage and give me a report. I would have done it myself except for the fact I am located thousands of miles away.

In summary, the Victron Connect App shows the total amps supplied after 118 day; and as you can see from the pictures below, it says the Victron Charger putout 1328AH total.

I think this suggests that an average 11.25A/day are being supplied to the house and engine batteries combined, because FYI I also have a KeyLine Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR) connected between my house batteries and my chassis-engine battery -- and basically means all batteries are combined when the input voltage from the Victron charger is above 13.6V.

NOTE: My RV battery disconnect switch (BDS) is "off."

So if we are to believe this is an accurate number, and I do, then this number also suggests the battery would be draining at a rate of 11.25A/day.

And at this drain-rate both my house and engine batteries would be dead in ~15-20 days without a Victron charger/battery maintainer. ...And I believe that is accurate too.

==> What I do not know are what loads are using this current when I have shut everything "off" and my RV is in storage?

* Please keep in mind the Keyline VSR connects the House Battery to the Chassis Battery. That said I have two questions:

1) What are the chassis parasitic drains when a coach is in storage?

2) What are the house battery parasitic drains when a coach is in storage?

For example: On the house battery side (B), I know my entry steps are always on, but how many amps does this system (load) drain when the RV is in storage and no one is using the steps?

* Below is a 12V power grid diagram, but I do not have a detailed 12 chassis power grid diagram to share. ...But I'm still interested to know what chassis-engine battery loads are "always on" when the ignition key is off?

Lastly, I think this Victron is smart enough to function as a "Battery Maintainer" when the coach is in storage. However, I'm not sure about that? I have not checked my battery water either, so I have no idea if when I return in April those house batteries will be dry as a bone? What do you think? ...I have 4-GC2-6V Golf Cart Batteries (420AH).
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Old 01-17-2021, 09:03 PM   #2
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Good questions. Maybe a manual battery disconnect on the negative battery terminals (chassis and coach), and 2 $40 trickle charger/maintainers would have been a better option? Or, if the batteries are all located together, use a TrikLStart to connect them and then use the maintainer to keep them up.
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Old 01-17-2021, 09:35 PM   #3
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Yeah, I'd just ask the people at the storage facility to unplug from 120 volt and than disconnect the battery grounds. You got something going on that's a bit difficult to figure out when you're a thousand miles away.

Had a thread on another forum where there was a high parasitic load on this guys batts and come to find out, it was the basement compartment lights as the dash switch for them was on. Once he switched that off, load dropped to 0.15 amp.

But...I still recommend you just have the grounds disconnected. The batteries will be fine just sitting for 3-4 months if they're not already ruined. In the case of the 6 volt batts, just disconnecting the jumper between batts will accomplish the same thing...might be easier to reach.
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Old 01-17-2021, 10:28 PM   #4
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Sorry... I have to reject both your answers. Pulling the power and disconnecting the battery cables is a step backwards when you have shore power at your storage facility.

Sure you can use a trickle charger but you have no idea how much current you are pumping into your batteries. So you guys sound like you are "shooting from the hip." Are you?

I say that because I am 100% sold on this Victron 17A charger and I use it all the time when I'm traveling... and have 3+ days at an RV park to charge my house batteries. Specifically, I never use my Dimensions 100A charger any more unless I'm camping over night and I need a quick charge. In addition, I think this is healthy for my inverter since it's the Dimensions Charger that tends to fail first.

Victron has superior charging algorithms and I'm hopeful by using the Victron that my house batteries will lase longer. (TBD)

This post is about using my Victron as a "battery maintainer" vs. a trickle charger.

And if I am to believe the Victron Bluetooth display which keeps track of the charge current over time, it sounds like most owners have NO IDEA what the acceptable parasitic draw is when they put their RV in storage?

How can I say this? ...Until you have a battery monitor you "cowboys" still think this is the "Old West!"

To rephrase the question: With the BDS "off" and the ignition key "off" what would you expect the DAILY parasitic AMP DRAW should be on:

A) The house battery bank?

and...

B) The chassis battery bank?

and...

C) Can you list all the loads that are "on" when the RV is in storage?


Right now my Victron Connect App says I'm using 11.25AH/day split between 4-6V-GC2 batteries with a total 410AH; and split between 2-950CA Engine Start Batteries... and this sound normal to me. IDK. ...After all, this is only about ~2AH/day/battery.

Further, since each battery cell is rated at 2.2V/cell, which means there are 24 cells in total between my house and start batteries; why do you-all think 11.25A/day is excessive? That's only 0.47A/cell. ...So again, this sounds normal to me! IDK. That's why I'm asking, but if you are going to say it is not normal then I expect more to back those claims up. Have you got more?

...And don't trickle chargers putout ~2A, which over a 24 hour period would imply a 48AH/Day?

So how is 11.25AH/day excessive when I maintaining BOTH my house and my engine battery off the Victron Charger... which I think is functioning as a "Battery Maintainer"... meaning the Victron charger is NOT going into "bulk" or "absorption" or "condition" mode. Sill, I would like someone to confirm this?

Maybe if we start with "KNOWN" parasitic drains we can then work backwards to see if 11.25AH/Day is what you would expect?

==> Most certainly there is no short, because if there was the charge in AH/day would be off the chart. So what loads are using most of the 11.25 AH/day my Victron Charger is working to replenish.

...Not counting normal battery discharge, right? ...And if I remember right, the normal battery discharge is ~2%/day which means in 50 days your battery is dead. I.e., below 30% SOC.

* Note: When I stored my RV, I did turn my inverter and inverter-charger "off". And with the BDS "off" there should be no 12V to the 12V inverter panel.

However, when you look at the 12V Power Grid Diagram above, you will see there is a circuit that is "always on."

This includes both solenoids (BDS & Boost Solenoids) and I assume it powers the CO2 sensor (IDK), and the ???? IDK. That's why I created this post. I am hoping that someone can tell us what power draw is NORMAL when you put your coach in storage and turn off all the solenoids?

PS
I have 400W of solar, and one year I left my RV outside in Houston for 6 months... with the Solar Charge Controller "on" ...and with my Keyline Charger "on" to charge both my house and my engine batteries, and when I returned, the engine started right up and off I went.

PSS
I think in order the least preferred methods of battery storage are as follows:

A) Pull the positive cable off your battery;

B) Use Solar panels to keep your batteries charged when in outside storage;

C) Connect a trickle charger if you have shore power when you store your RV.

D) And the best option is to use a "battery maintainer" if at all possible, like the Victron 17A/25A Charger or some other smart charger with the option to maintain batteries in storage.

There are other ways I'm sure, but this is the list I am working with until someone can explain a better way to go?
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Old 01-17-2021, 11:29 PM   #5
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==> Maybe my premise is off? I said I get 11.25A/day, but maybe that's not the way I should be reading the Victron Connect App? Maybe if I convert 11.25AH/Day to 0.47A/hour that sounds better? ...Is this correct? ...Or are we really talking about the same thing? ...In any event, I would like to know if this normal?

...Cuz, if a FLA battery normally loses 2%/day, I would think 0.47A/hour is typical for an RV in storage that keeps the solenoids powered, the CO2 sensor hot, and the Steps powered "on" all the time... plus there is "natural" battery drain to consider. IDK. That's why I'm asking!

Last words: Until you get a battery monitor you really don't know what you don't know. ...And I said the same think about a Pyrometer to measure EGT. ...Boy did that change the way I drive! (For more information on how to install a Pyrometer, see my other posts on www.IRV2 can this website. This is another $175 upgrade you can do yourself once you read more about it.)
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Old 01-18-2021, 07:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
==> Maybe my premise is off? I said I get 11.25A/day, but maybe that's not the way I should be reading the Victron Connect App? Maybe if I convert 11.25AH/Day to 0.47A/hour that sounds better? ...Is this correct? ...Or are we really talking about the same thing? ...In any event, I would like to know if this normal?

...Cuz, if a FLA battery normally loses 2%/day, I would think 0.47A/hour is typical for an RV in storage that keeps the solenoids powered, the CO2 sensor hot, and the Steps powered "on" all the time... plus there is "natural" battery drain to consider. IDK. That's why I'm asking!

Last words: Until you get a battery monitor you really don't know what you don't know. ...And I said the same think about a Pyrometer to measure EGT. ...Boy did that change the way I drive! (For more information on how to install a Pyrometer, see my other posts on www.IRV2 can this website. This is another $175 upgrade you can do yourself once you read more about it.)
You've answered your own questions, on why not to get a fancy inaccurate battery monitor, and what might be causing the parasitic draws, in 3 paragraphs or less.
Good luck with it.
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Old 01-18-2021, 07:40 AM   #7
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I recently installed a solar panel on my trailer. I have twin 6V batteries (flooded). I drive to the storage lot and check on it occasionally. It seems that the controller adds about 3 AH to the batteries each day to keep them topped up. This is with all the loads disconnected (battery disconnect switch and slide power switch off).
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Old 01-18-2021, 09:04 AM   #8
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[QUOTE=imnprsd;3885241]Sorry... I have to reject both your answers. Pulling the power and disconnecting the battery cables is a step backwards when you have shore power at your storage facility.

Disagree, it's not a step backwards to avoid wasting power. Especially when that wasting of power is for 'dubious' reasons. WHY do you think you need to keep the RV powered? There's only two reasons I can think of and that's to keep the batteries charged, and the refer, and the beer inside, cold.

SNIP

To rephrase the question: With the BDS "off" and the ignition key "off" what would you expect the DAILY parasitic AMP DRAW should be on:


A) The house battery bank? ~0.5 amp

and...

B) The chassis battery bank? ~0.5 amp

That's what I'd expect from my RV. Yours could be entirely different.

and...

C) Can you list all the loads that are "on" when the RV is in storage?

Depends on manufacturer and years of production...the 1965 RV phantom loads will likely be quite different than a 2021 RV's, though similar. But here's an example:

Chassis Battery Phantom Loads: Engine memory, Transmission memory, Dash radio memory, CO detectors, LP detector, Smoke detectors, Steps. You won't see engine and tranni memories in a 1965 rig though, but the radio memory would draw a lot.

House Battery Phantom Loads: CO detectors, LP detectors, Electronic door lock (keyless entry lock), sometimes the basement light circuits are powered though if a door isn't open they are 'Off'.

Some or all of the circuits mentioned above can be co-powered by the house batts. CO, LP, and the step circuits are favorites to be co-powered by both sets of batts. This is a marketing and a safety design decision.

Did I miss anything? Probable. Because I'm not familiar with every manufacturers chassis design out there, for every year.

Is it necessary to know each and every phantom draw? Not in my opinion. After 16 years of full time RV'ing, it's a very minor issue. All I care about is remembering that there ARE phantom loads.
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Old 01-18-2021, 02:19 PM   #9
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"Phantom Loads"

Jim_HiTek: Thanks for listing all the phantom loads you could think of. This will be eye opening for many owners.

If I understand you right, you are saying phantom loads can be as much as 0.5A on the house battery bank and 0.5A of drain on the engine-chassis-battery bank when you store your RV and the BDS is turned "off."

It's also clear to me, that you need a battery charger working to replenish this drain, when you store your RV, or you will find your batteries "dead" after 3-4 months... with the battery cables connected.

As for how long batteries can maintain a healthy charge when stored in the RV without battery cables connected, I can't comment.

I just know I spent $300 for a diesel power jump to start my dead engine the last time I recovered my RV from storage (without a trickle charger or Victron charger) and I'm not going to do that again!

So this is the reason why so MANY owners WANT shore power where they store their RV... to connect a battery maintainer or trickle charger. And the "step back" I was referring to, IMO, is when you choose to disconnect the battery cables vs. using the shore power if you have it.

If you don't have shore power where you store your RV, and you don't have solar power to recharge your batteries if you store the RV outside, then yes... the only other option you have is to disconnect battery cables and that sounds like a good thing to do.

The Victron 17A Charger has proven to be a very good $135 upgrade. I wasn't sure at first, but now that you-all seem to accept the "numbers" I have presented above as "normal" phantom load drains, I'm now more sure I like having a Victron Bluetooth App so I can monitor my 12V power grid.

To review: This Victron Connect App is saying my Phantom Loads amount to
~11.25AH/day, which is the same as 0.47A/hour -- and this total current is used to maintain 24-2.2V battery cells. This is to maintain both the house and chassis battery banks.

There were three reasons I bought the Victron 17A (for $135 on Amazon):

1) I first thought my Dimensions Inverter Charger was acting up, but that concern was fixed when I replaced the negative-battery-temperature-probe.

==> With the Victron charger I no longer use the Dimensions Inverter Charger to replenish my house batteries. I also hope the Victron will result in longer battery life? TBD

2) The second reason is to use the Victron as a battery maintainer when in storage, as described above.

3) And I very much like having the bluetooth App to see how much battery power is being used when my RV is in storage (11.25AH/day). However, I still think this number is a big high.

SUPPLEMENTAL: The Victron display below was a "snapshot" I took after 3 days of use when I had shore power. This power drain is an indication of how much 12V power was being used to power the lights "on" in my coach. Mostly this means the power to the bathroom vanity lights and the overhead fluorescent lights. (351AH/3.83 days=91.6AH/day) ...So that surprised me too since I have a 120V residential refrigerator. I.e., almost 6a/hr of 12v power are used in a 15 hour day to keep my lights on. (Not counting other phantom loads to 2-battery banks.) Therefore, this is why you need a battery charger and a power source when you use your RV.

Note: The 3-day report shows the different battery charging cycles the Victron is using. Now compare that to the 118-day report that shows NO charging cycles. This tells me the Victron is smart enough to know when a battery is in storage vs. in use. I.e., when in storage the Victron functions as a "battery maintainer".

So that begs a question: What is the difference between a battery maintainer and a trickle charger?
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
So that begs a question: What is the difference between a battery maintainer and a trickle charger?
A battery maintainer is a semi-smart device while a trickle/float charger is dumb.

Click here - Battery Maintainer...Can have all these features or some of them.

Float Charger: "Float Chargers – Unlike trickle chargers, they don't charge batteries, they maintain them. Although they can't recharge a dead battery, they can be used frequently and left connected to a battery without any risk of overcharging. Float chargers automatically shut off when the battery is fully charged."

Trickle Charger: "Trickle chargers are low-amp chargers that top up a drained battery to keep it at its maximum capacity. It's typically hooked to an idle battery and slow-charges the battery to prevent depletion, and it automatically stops when the battery is full."

Modern float chargers can also incorporate a 'de-sulfication' cycle.
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Old 01-20-2021, 07:39 PM   #11
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Here is the one I use . But did not pay this much .
Along with a KeyLine . It keeps 5 wet cells @ 13 to 13.25 V

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Battery-Ten...UAAOSwhaZeaFZ9
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Old 01-20-2021, 07:55 PM   #12
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I use the converter the RV came with, than the $60 Trik-L-Start to share from the house to the chassis batts.

Years ago, my '94 Bounder had a nearby 120 volt outlet so I used a $20 Schumacker charger on the chassis bats. Worked great for 12 years.

But, I'm one of those that if the RV is going to be unplugged for more than 3 days or in storage, I just disconnect the battery ground on the chassis batts, and remove the jumper between the 6 volt house batts. Keep a wrench and gloves in the battery bay just for that. Now days, you can buy 200 amp switches for $15 each for that job.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:39 PM   #13
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Bottom line from what I see is that you have a phantom load of a little less than 0.5 amp.

Some of that may be coming from the engine computer or radio or?? because you are keeping your chassis battery charged.

If you have a solar controller and you don't have it disconnected from the battery it will use some power to keep the controller powered on at night time or on very, very cloudy days.

I don't see where a half of an amp of phantom load is a big issue since you have 120V AC available to keep the batteries charged.

Once you get back to the RV, you can disconnect things to determine what is causing the load.
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Old 01-22-2021, 05:58 PM   #14
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Well then... it's good to know I don't have a short or excessive parasitic battery drain if 11AH/Day is normal.

The Victron screen is indicating only 1 charging cycle. Can I assume this is a typical reading when the Victron is in battery "Maintainer" mode?

I am a bit concerned that Victron says it is maintaining my 4-6V-GC2 batteries at 14.4V. Is this normal?

I would think a battery maintainer would only need to "push" 12.9V or so.

Note: I am using the Keyline VSR to combine my house battery bank with the chassis-engine battery so maybe this is a factor?

What voltage would you say a typical trickle charger puts-out to maintain a 100% SOC in a FLA battery bank?
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Old 01-23-2021, 04:34 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
Well then... it's good to know I don't have a short or excessive parasitic battery drain if 11AH/Day is normal.

The Victron screen is indicating only 1 charging cycle. Can I assume this is a typical reading when the Victron is in battery "Maintainer" mode?

I am a bit concerned that Victron says it is maintaining my 4-6V-GC2 batteries at 14.4V. Is this normal?

I would think a battery maintainer would only need to "push" 12.9V or so.

Note: I am using the Keyline VSR to combine my house battery bank with the chassis-engine battery so maybe this is a factor?

What voltage would you say a typical trickle charger puts-out to maintain a 100% SOC in a FLA battery bank?
-- Your batteries should be kept at "float voltage" level of about 13.4V. There may be a setting that needs to be changed.
-- I believe I have read that the trickle charger just looks for a chassis battery a little lower than 12.6V, then when it sees the low voltage it charges at something below 13.0V until the voltage is back to about 12.6V. I don't have the manual to detail the exact specs.

The other questions---I would be just guessing.
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Old 01-24-2021, 05:12 PM   #16
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How to read the Victron App after putting my RV in storage?

The Victron screenshot below was take by a friend who checked on my RV in storage. So I was not there to measure the voltage output of the Victron charger.

However, after more closely looking at the Victron screen shot I can clearly see it had been keeping track of the last 118 days.

I also think this will explain the other readings:

* When I stored the RV it took 1 charge cycle to fully charge my house batteries. This cycle took 29minutes and 55 seconds to complete... at 14.4V.

* Since then the Victron then has been maintaining both my house and chassis-engine batteries (thanks to the Keyline VSR that combines these two battery banks together) for 118 days... at a rate of ~11.25AH/day.

==> The Victron does not tell you the voltage when it is in "maintenance mode." To do that you would just need to take a voltage reading with your voltmeter. (But as I said, I am no where near my RV to take this measurement.)

However, I think it's safe to say that the Victron is not maintaining the batteries at 14.4V. This was just an assumption on my part.

When I return to my RV in April-2021 I will measure the voltage output and report back.

I also updated the 12 Volt Power Grid Schematic and made some corrections to the Boost Solenoid wire descriptions with regards to switching; and I added the Keyline VSR to the diagram. (See below.)
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Old 01-25-2021, 08:18 AM   #17
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Where are you getting all this information from?
Your friend who checked on it or from Bluetooth?
Are you completely positive that the information is accurate?
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Old 01-25-2021, 09:01 AM   #18
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My RV is in storage and I asked a friend to check on my RV. He loaded the Victron App and took the screenshot shown above.

I'm asking how to interpret the screenshot; and everything I said is just my opinion. I may be right. I maybe wrong. So if someone can confirm my assumptions or tell me how to properly read the screenshot that would be appreciated.

My reasoning is that Victron would not be maintaining my house batteries at 14.4V. However, this is just an opinion.

I thing the active part of the Victron App is the bottom part that suggests the Victron charger is pumping-out 11.25AH/day based on the my math, but this too is just my opinion.

The schematic comes from Winnebago for my model RV. Then I added color to help trace the wires and I added notes, which represents my understanding.

All this is open to correction since the goal is to better understand the Victron charger and my 12V Power Grid.
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Old 01-25-2021, 02:01 PM   #19
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You are correct in your assumption in post #16. The screenshot of your Victron app shows the "History" tab. The 14.4V is just part of the battery settings/configuration. If you want real time voltage and current, you have to look at the Status or Graph tabs.

The Absorb and Float times of 30mins/4hours are determined by your setup and the charge algorithm, with the remaining time spent in Storage mode. So assuming the default Lead-Acid Normal settings, you charged at 14.4V for 30 mins, 13.8V for 4 hours and 13.2V for the rest. The one thing that stands out is the "Storage Mode" showing only 3 days-16 hours. That can't be right considering the 340.7 Ah's. Otherwise, it looks like it is working perfectly.
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Old 01-25-2021, 05:00 PM   #20
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Thanks Old Navy.

The 3-day, 16-hour screen shot is when I was boondocking and using the RV normally... with shore power. (Sorry for the confusion.) I posted this to show I was using ~91.6AH/day to keep my 12V systems operational when on shore power. (Mostly for those 12V lights in the bedroom, bathroom, and ceiling fluorescents in the kitchen and living room.)

Another thing I need to clear up and correct has to do with my 12V Power Grid Diagram. I think I miss labeled the BOOST solenoid switch wires. The diagram below is my latest rendition I am sticking with it until some corrects my assumptions.
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