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Old 10-28-2018, 09:03 AM   #1
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More solar panels?

Our new (2018) Fuse came with a DC refrigerator which seems quite good, but I fear may draw a lot of power from the house batteries. It also came with 2 roof-mounted flexible solar panels, each rated at 100 watts, and I do worry a bit about the battery drain when dry camping, which we do a fair amount of, but not normally for more than 1 or 2 days at any particular location.

I was thinking about adding one or 2 more panels to the roof, but really do not know if that will help much as I have no real experience with solar panels, so I hoped that I could get some answers to some basic questions.

1) The solar panels are rated at 5.9 amps each, but I never see more than 3 or 4 amps charging the batteries. Is the draw dependent upon the battery condition?

2) I assume solar panels are generally wired in parallel, so theoretically adding more panels should increase the available amperage, but does it really work that way? Or are there other limiting factors which keep the amperage low?

We do not generally use the TV or other high consumption devices, and the only draw we would normally expect is from the electronics in the engine compartment (185 HP Ford diesel), the electronics in the coach, some usb chargers and the refrigerator. Will more panels actually help? Or are they likely unnecessary? We live in southern Arizona so sunlight is not generally a problem.

The coach is so new that we have no experience from which to draw as to what to expect when dry camping and I worry that we will end up with dead house batteries after a day or two of camping.
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Old 10-29-2018, 05:30 AM   #2
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This is out of my realm but I do know that you need to worry about the size wire and the controller for the solar. We had to rewire and buy a new controller when we added a panel.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:39 AM   #3
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It’s a system. Solar brings in power, the controller modifies the power to appropriately charge the batteries and the batteries store the power for future use. Don’t forget about the inverter in this system either.

So every piece of this system has to be engineered to work together. More panels, more batteries, bigger controller? It’s all park of the puzzle you have to figure out.

As to your existing panels output, the rated output is an ideal number rarely if ever seen. Adding more panels does increase the amps, but be sure your controller can handle the extra amps. Don’t forget to consider your total battery bank size. Is it large enough?

My point is to suggest you do a lot of reading on the subject and maybe talk to a few solar suppliers and look at your complete system before going much further.

There is a lot of info on websites and YouTube has a lot of RV solar info too. Here’s one website that has some basic info:

https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...ms-information

Then you’ll know what you’ll need to make your system work as you are wanting it to.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:56 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by creativepart View Post
It’s a system. Solar brings in power, the controller modifies the power to appropriately charge the batteries and the batteries store the power for future use. Don’t forget about the inverter in this system either.

So every piece of this system has to be engineered to work together. More panels, more batteries, bigger controller? It’s all park of the puzzle you have to figure out.

As to your existing panels output, the rated output is an ideal number rarely if ever seen. Adding more panels does increase the amps, but be sure your controller can handle the extra amps. Don’t forget to consider your total battery bank size. Is it large enough?

My point is to suggest you do a lot of reading on the subject and maybe talk to a few solar suppliers and look at your complete system before going much further.

There is a lot of info on websites and YouTube has a lot of RV solar info too. Here’s one website that has some basic info:

https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...ms-information

Then you’ll know what you’ll need to make your system work as you are wanting it to.
That is all good information, so thank you.

The controller documentation says that it is rated at 510 watts so it should be able to handle one or even two more panels. The question is whether or not additional panels will actually end up giving me enough additional power to make a difference.

The main item in the RV that is of concern is the new all DC refrigerator. I do not know how much power it draws, but a 12 volt fridge has to draw considerable current to work and I have no idea if 2 panels will provide enough power to support the fridge or, for that matter, if 4 panels will. More panels should provide more current and more change, and I suppose it can not hurt, but I doubt that doubling the panels will double the charge. Things usually do not work quite as well in the real world as they might in the theoretical world.

I will call Winnebago today and see if I can get some answers. I do not think my local dealer will know.
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Old 10-29-2018, 09:00 AM   #5
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1) The difference between rated output and actual output will vary based on a number of factors, including, but not limited to sun exposure. Additionally, your battery's charge level will affect the charging amps it draws. An almost fully charged battery will draw less than a discharged battery.

2) Additional panels will increase your potential output but your battery's charge level will still affect the amps it draws.

3) Although I don't have experience with a DC refrigerator like your's (mine is AC/LPG), I would think that 200w in AZ would be adequate. You can do all the calculations you want but only experience will tell you if this is the case, there are too many unpredictable variables. We got along fine in our previous TT in CA for years with only 100w and with non-refrigerator use similar to your's so, in effect, you have one 100w panel devoted to the draw of your refrigerator. You'll know one way or another after a few trips.

This site may help:
The conFUSEd RVer: Winnebago Fuse Compressor Refrigerators
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Old 10-29-2018, 09:02 AM   #6
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200 watts solar flat mounted on the roof can replace part but not all of the power typically used daily when the RV is in use and the systems including the refrigerator are on. I estimate that in winter with shorter days it can replace about half the power typically used, in summer with higher sun angles and longer days more.

Some Winnebagos are engineered to handle 300 wats of solar panels and have expansion connectors on side wall or roof to plug in solar panels. You can look for that in your owners manual.
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:17 AM   #7
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OP, I believe you probably have the DE0061 refrigerator? Is so your OEM batteries and 200 watts of solar will not serve you well. I am not sure about your model refrigerator but we have the DE0061 in our 18V24D. I lost one solar panel early, replaced under warranty. In full sun I get 10-11 amps. That was not enough. The OEM NAPA batteries died in a few months. I replaced them with two T-1275 Trojans for 300AH. I still need to run the generator a few hours in the AM and evening. Dry camp works now but the refrigerator still draws far too much amps, more than the engineering doc from Norcold states. There are several concurrent threads on the topic on this forum and others, mostly discussing the View model with the DE0061 refrigerator. My thermostat was replaced, failed, then refrigerator was replaced. It works with the big batteries and maintains temps well but still draws far too much power. Check the other discussions if you have this refrigerator. Good luck!
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:17 AM   #8
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As others have said. It's all variable based not only on your equipment but also the time of day, the time of year, your campsite orientation. Too many variable to really know for sure, especially on limited information.

One of the very first things many solar installers recommend adding is a Battery Monitor Kit (BMK). This tracks all the power coming into and going out of your battery bank. This is vastly more helpful than a standard RV battery monitor on your tank level monitor. With one, you would know how many amps you use in a day. You'd know how many amps you're getting right now from your panels. You'd know how many amps you're getting from your generator or shore power or both. Most importantly a BMK will give you an accurate SOC "State of Charge" in your battery bank as a percentage between 100% and 0%.

So, if you do nothing else right now installing a BMK will give you basically all the info you need to know if you need more panels, more battery, or both.

There are a number of BMKs available and many of the newer ones have bluetooth capabilities so you can monitor your batteries on your cell phone or tablet. They are not super expensive ($100 to $200) and they are very easy to install yourself if you're a little bit handy.

My WBGO Adventurer came with one 100 watt panel and a 3-port connector module on the roof. It was wired to a 30 amp PWM controller and it charges 400 amp hours of AGM deep cycle batteries. The RV has a 2000w Pure Sine Wave Magnum inverter, too. My Fridge is a full-size 3-door residential Whirlpool that runs entirely on 110v, so all of this is needed.

Since I could easily install more panels I put 2 more 100w panels on the roof and all I had to do was to plug them into the 2 unused ports on the connector there. When I did this I didn't know much about my system, but like you figured more is better when it comes to solar power. It's worked out fine because my system was capable of handling the extra wattage/amps - from the connector on the roof, the wiring to the controller and the controller itself. In a sense, I just got lucky that all of that was there and ready to go. Even though when I got the RV last year I had no idea about how it all worked.

The Magnum inverter/charger came with a basic remote monitor (model ME-MR) mounted inside the RV's control panel cabinet. I found I could upgrade to their latest inverter monitor (model ME-ARC50) for about $140 just by removing the old basic unit and plugging in the new remote monitor. The new remote monitor has a provision for a Magnum BMK, too. So I installed that as well - another $140.

I have to admit the BMK is really useful and I'm learning so much. It seems that on a full sun day in a full sun campsite, that my Fridge and other AC usage will use about 30% to 40% of my battery bank in 18 to 20 hours. So, I need to run my generator a couple of hours in the morning and in the evening to keep my batteries charged and keep up with my AC usage each day. I'm lucky in that my RV also came with an auto gen start so if the batteries fall to below 60% SOC the genset will automatically start and replenish my batteries. You don't want to drain your batteries to 50% SOC because it shortens their life. This is both flooded Lead Acid and AGM batteries. Lithium batteries don't have this issue and can be discharged much lower and many times.

To keep up better without the generator I'd need a minimum of 600w of panels and then I'd need a 50 Amp MMPT Solar Controller and possibly add two more AGM batteries for a total of 600AH. So basically I'd need to double the size of my system. Even then there would be some generator needed for cloudy days, winter sun, too much shade, etc.

I don't NEED all of that capability, so, for now, I'm fine with the modest system I have. But at least now I know what I need thanks to the BMK.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:53 PM   #9
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OP, I believe you probably have the DE0061 refrigerator? Is so your OEM batteries and 200 watts of solar will not serve you well. I am not sure about your model refrigerator but we have the DE0061 in our 18V24D. I lost one solar panel early, replaced under warranty. In full sun I get 10-11 amps. That was not enough. The OEM NAPA batteries died in a few months. I replaced them with two T-1275 Trojans for 300AH. I still need to run the generator a few hours in the AM and evening. Dry camp works now but the refrigerator still draws far too much amps, more than the engineering doc from Norcold states. There are several concurrent threads on the topic on this forum and others, mostly discussing the View model with the DE0061 refrigerator. My thermostat was replaced, failed, then refrigerator was replaced. It works with the big batteries and maintains temps well but still draws far too much power. Check the other discussions if you have this refrigerator. Good luck!
Thank you. We do have the DC0061 refrigerator in our Fuse and I checked the model UL info today. It specifies that the fridge operates on 12 or 24 volts DC and uses 6.5/3.1 amps. The solar panels do not seem to provide enough current to keep the batteries fully charged, but we do not have much experience yet, having only bought the RV last week and taken only one short trip.

The trip did involve 2 days of dry camping, but at different locations so we ran the engine which charged the batteries and all I could actually check was how well it did for one day and one night, but that was OK. The battery still showed fully charged in the morning.

I do think I will have some additional solar panels added as I assume they can not hurt anything but my budget.
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Old 10-29-2018, 02:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by creativepart View Post
As others have said. It's all variable based not only on your equipment but also the time of day, the time of year, your campsite orientation. Too many variable to really know for sure, especially on limited information.

One of the very first things many solar installers recommend adding is a Battery Monitor Kit (BMK). This tracks all the power coming into and going out of your battery bank. This is vastly more helpful than a standard RV battery monitor on your tank level monitor. With one, you would know how many amps you use in a day. You'd know how many amps you're getting right now from your panels. You'd know how many amps you're getting from your generator or shore power or both. Most importantly a BMK will give you an accurate SOC "State of Charge" in your battery bank as a percentage between 100% and 0%.

So, if you do nothing else right now installing a BMK will give you basically all the info you need to know if you need more panels, more battery, or both.

There are a number of BMKs available and many of the newer ones have bluetooth capabilities so you can monitor your batteries on your cell phone or tablet. They are not super expensive ($100 to $200) and they are very easy to install yourself if you're a little bit handy.

My WBGO Adventurer came with one 100 watt panel and a 3-port connector module on the roof. It was wired to a 30 amp PWM controller and it charges 400 amp hours of AGM deep cycle batteries. The RV has a 2000w Pure Sine Wave Magnum inverter, too. My Fridge is a full-size 3-door residential Whirlpool that runs entirely on 110v, so all of this is needed.

Since I could easily install more panels I put 2 more 100w panels on the roof and all I had to do was to plug them into the 2 unused ports on the connector there. When I did this I didn't know much about my system, but like you figured more is better when it comes to solar power. It's worked out fine because my system was capable of handling the extra wattage/amps - from the connector on the roof, the wiring to the controller and the controller itself. In a sense, I just got lucky that all of that was there and ready to go. Even though when I got the RV last year I had no idea about how it all worked.

The Magnum inverter/charger came with a basic remote monitor (model ME-MR) mounted inside the RV's control panel cabinet. I found I could upgrade to their latest inverter monitor (model ME-ARC50) for about $140 just by removing the old basic unit and plugging in the new remote monitor. The new remote monitor has a provision for a Magnum BMK, too. So I installed that as well - another $140.

I have to admit the BMK is really useful and I'm learning so much. It seems that on a full sun day in a full sun campsite, that my Fridge and other AC usage will use about 30% to 40% of my battery bank in 18 to 20 hours. So, I need to run my generator a couple of hours in the morning and in the evening to keep my batteries charged and keep up with my AC usage each day. I'm lucky in that my RV also came with an auto gen start so if the batteries fall to below 60% SOC the genset will automatically start and replenish my batteries. You don't want to drain your batteries to 50% SOC because it shortens their life. This is both flooded Lead Acid and AGM batteries. Lithium batteries don't have this issue and can be discharged much lower and many times.

To keep up better without the generator I'd need a minimum of 600w of panels and then I'd need a 50 Amp MMPT Solar Controller and possibly add two more AGM batteries for a total of 600AH. So basically I'd need to double the size of my system. Even then there would be some generator needed for cloudy days, winter sun, too much shade, etc.

I don't NEED all of that capability, so, for now, I'm fine with the modest system I have. But at least now I know what I need thanks to the BMK.
This was wonderful information. Thank you.

I contacted Zamp Solar, the supplier of the solar equipment for the Winnebago Fuse, and asked some pretty basic questions. The answers surprised me.

They told me I could go ahead and add some solar panels. That did not surprise me as the controller is rated at 510 watts, but what did surprise me is that they suggested adding rigid ones, not their own flexible ones that are already installed. They do not sell any BMKs or sell any monitors that would include them, but they did give me the name and phone number of some local Zamp dealers, so I will check with them.

Our RV came with a sine wave inverter, although it is only 1000 watts. To be honest I do not think we need more as the only things we would run on the inverter are small things like camera battery chargers that have only AC connections, and an dvd on the small TV. We would not attempt to run the AC or the microwave without running the generator. I suspect that we would have to change our batteries if we wanted more than a 1000 watt inverter as I think the draw would be more than the standard batteries could handle.

I think there is enough room space for 2 more panels, but not more, so we will probably be limited by that. I could add another free-standing but honestly do not want to do so. If 400 watts is not enough I do not think that 500 will do either, but that may change as I become more experienced in working with solar. We do a fair amount of dry camping, but mostly have access to hookups nightly when we are traveling and most of our destinations also provide AC power. Our boon docking is largely restricted to specific sites - camping next to the ocean in California or in the state parks getting there, camping in some of the US National Parks and the like. We do that, but it probably accounts for only about 25% of our nights in the RV.

Thank you again for all of the valuable information.
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Old 10-29-2018, 02:53 PM   #11
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I'm not surprised they suggested rigid panels. The consenses on the flexible flat mount panels is that most do not recommend them any longer. It seems a couple of years ago they were all the rage. Now they spoken of as less efficient and less durable. My WBGO came with one rigid 100w Zamp panel.

Winnebago comes with Zamp solar components and they are well made products. But there are two things to know about them - they are more than twice the price of other brands. And, they use non-standard SAE connectors (and wired in non-standard polarity, too).

When I added my two panels I went with 100w rigid panels from Renergy. Two panels from Renergy were 1/2 the cost of one panel from Zamp.

It would have been $800 to install two additional Zamp panels and it was $245 to install two additional Renergy branded 100w panels.

As for the wiring, the Renergy (and all other RV solar panels) come with MC4 connectors. I purchased some SAE terminated wiring and cut off the MC4 connectors and replaced them with the SAE connectors. That's the only way I could use the OEM installed Zamp 3-port portal on the roof.

As to the polarity - SAE connectors have one covered female and one uncovered male pin - usually the uncovered male pin is wired positive and covered female is wired negative. Zamp reverses this as a protection to keep the positive terminal from being uncovered when it's not connected to the other side of the connection.

So, all you need to know is which pin is neg and which receptacle is pos and not go by any previous knowledge of SAE connection norms. No biggie.

Here's the price comparison at today's prices:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DCCOSV0/ref=dp_cerb_3
https://www.amazon.com/Zamp-solar-ZS.../dp/B074PCCDQM
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Old 10-29-2018, 05:28 PM   #12
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I'm not surprised they suggested rigid panels. The consenses on the flexible flat mount panels is that most do not recommend them any longer. It seems a couple of years ago they were all the rage. Now they spoken of as less efficient and less durable. My WBGO came with one rigid 100w Zamp panel.

Winnebago comes with Zamp solar components and they are well made products. But there are two things to know about them - they are more than twice the price of other brands. And, they use non-standard SAE connectors (and wired in non-standard polarity, too).

When I added my two panels I went with 100w rigid panels from Renergy. Two panels from Renergy were 1/2 the cost of one panel from Zamp.

It would have been $800 to install two additional Zamp panels and it was $245 to install two additional Renergy branded 100w panels.

As for the wiring, the Renergy (and all other RV solar panels) come with MC4 connectors. I purchased some SAE terminated wiring and cut off the MC4 connectors and replaced them with the SAE connectors. That's the only way I could use the OEM installed Zamp 3-port portal on the roof.

As to the polarity - SAE connectors have one covered female and one uncovered male pin - usually the uncovered male pin is wired positive and covered female is wired negative. Zamp reverses this as a protection to keep the positive terminal from being uncovered when it's not connected to the other side of the connection.

So, all you need to know is which pin is neg and which receptacle is pos and not go by any previous knowledge of SAE connection norms. No biggie.

Here's the price comparison at today's prices:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DCCOSV0/ref=dp_cerb_3
https://www.amazon.com/Zamp-solar-ZS.../dp/B074PCCDQM
Good to know. It just reaffirms one of my basic beliefs - Nothing is as simple as it is supposed to be. It appears that the more you know about something the more complex you realize it really is.

As for installation of an extra panel, even that seems complex. I called around and got prices ranging from $600 to $2000. For a single panel where there already is a connector with an open socket for one additional panel and where the system is already wired for an extra panel.

I am not handy with tools, and never have been. I can take things apart easily enough, but the problem shows up when I try to put them back together, and I never really know what to do with the "extra" pieces I have left over when done.
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Old 10-29-2018, 06:19 PM   #13
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Aside from mounting it, installing two additional panels isn't any more difficult than installing one. The existing open socket can serve two panels with an appropriate parallel "Branch Connector".

I'm with Creativepart, there's no need to pay the premium for a Zamp panel. The additional panels should have similar ratings as your existing panel.

$2,000 is outrageous. For a professional, who knows what they're doing, I would think the labor should be no more than 2 hours for one panel, 3 hours for two. It's not like they have to install the wiring and controller. If I were you, I'd start polling my friends to see who might have the skills to help you out, it really is a relatively simple plug-and-play job aside from mounting the panels. Lunch and beer is much cheaper than commercial labor rates. Mounting the panels can be simplified if you use one of the systems based on 3M's VHB tape (no screws). Here's one example:

https://rvsolarstore.com/index.php?r...product_id=112

Some mount the panel directly to the roof with VHB tape but I prefer a method like the above that allows you to easily remove the panel if necessary. You can also DIY your own mounts from aluminum angle stock.
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Old 10-29-2018, 06:45 PM   #14
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Aside from mounting it, installing two additional panels isn't any more difficult than installing one. The existing open socket can serve two panels with an appropriate parallel "Branch Connector".

I'm with Creativepart, there's no need to pay the premium for a Zamp panel. The additional panels should have similar ratings as your existing panel.

$2,000 is outrageous. For a professional, who knows what they're doing, I would think the labor should be no more than 2 hours for one panel, 3 hours for two. It's not like they have to install the wiring and controller. If I were you, I'd start polling my friends to see who might have the skills to help you out, it really is a relatively simple plug-and-play job aside from mounting the panels. Lunch and beer is much cheaper than commercial labor rates. Mounting the panels can be simplified if you use one of the systems based on 3M's VHB tape (no screws). Here's one example:

https://rvsolarstore.com/index.php?r...product_id=112

Some mount the panel directly to the roof with VHB tape but I prefer a method like the above that allows you to easily remove the panel if necessary. You can also DIY your own mounts from aluminum angle stock.
Do those "Sticky Feet" hold panels well enough to survive running down the road at 65 mph? And can they stand the heat of an Arizona summer where the temperatures can (and sometimes do) reach 115F or more?

That seems very appealing since it means I could probably do it myself and save a ton of money, but I don't want the thing ending up behind me on the highway or, worse, buried in someone else's windshield.

I freely admit to being an inveterate worrier and, as they say, "If it weren't for bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all".
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:01 PM   #15
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You will quickly learn that when it comes to RVs doing it yourself, even if you are ham-fisted, is better and cheaper than hiring it out.

It's an easy job. Takes very little time. You'll spend 2/3rd of the time planning it out and worrying about it in your sleep and 1/3rd of your time completing the job.

And yes, there are a great many things in life that seem on the surface to be simple and uncomplicated but very few that don't have many more layers of complexity. You can't REALLY know until you've gotten in there and done the job. It helps that there are many that have come before you and can share their experience. Youtube is your friend do some searching and you'll find many that have done this job themselves and will show you the way.
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:03 PM   #16
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Personally I have mounted 100 watt rigid solar panels on Winnebago RV roofs with "Z" brackets. I fasten the "Z" brackets to the roof with 3/4" #10 Stainless Steel self drilling screws, with butyl caulk tape on the bottom of the "Z" brackets where they touch the roof. I also cover the top of the "Z" bracket and the screw with another piece of butyl caulk tape to further waterproof. Have had no issues with water intrusion or anything working loose. The "Z" brackets take care of providing a slight air space under the panels making them more efficient, and also take care of dealing with mounting a flat panel on a slightly curved roof.

I have been able to buy the 100 watt solar panels on Amazon.com for about $ 1.05 per watt including free shipping. Pack of aluminum "Z" brackets with stainless hardware to mount to solar panels for each panel are about $ 11 each on Amazon.

You want to minimize splices and use good copper wire to connect the panels, #8 copper stranded is very cost effective as it is sold for audio power applications. You can wrap with black electrical tape to protect the insulation against UV light from the sun. It is best practice to buy a plastic weatherproof junction box to contain your splice, and to contain a fuse or circuit breaker, for 400 watts of solar panels I suggest a 30 amp fuse or circuit breaker.

If you really want to maximize your solar system and get the most output in partial shade, you'll want the 4 solar panels in parallel. Best case, they will generate up to 25 amps so the wiring between where the panels are connected in parallel and the solar charge controller should be #8 or better yet #6 gauge. This may mean that you run your own wire for all 4 panels to the charge controller and no longer use the Winnebago OEM wiring to make the connection.

I am skeptical that the OEM charge controller can handle 400 watts of panels. It may also not be MPPT, which will improve the amount of the power you can get from the solar vs cheaper PWM charge controllers.
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:19 PM   #17
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Here is a picture of the rigid 100 watt solar panels mounted with "Z" brackets on my Vista, with the weatherproof box. There is a interior wall directly under the weatherproof box that my wiring drops down thru the bottom of the box and a hole drilled in the roof.

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Old 10-29-2018, 10:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJMike View Post
Do those "Sticky Feet" hold panels well enough to survive running down the road at 65 mph? And can they stand the heat of an Arizona summer where the temperatures can (and sometimes do) reach 115F or more?

That seems very appealing since it means I could probably do it myself and save a ton of money, but I don't want the thing ending up behind me on the highway or, worse, buried in someone else's windshield.

I freely admit to being an inveterate worrier and, as they say, "If it weren't for bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all".
From what I've read, the VHB mounting tape does a good job as long as the surface is clean and free of any contaminates. My suggestion is to do some Googling and read as much as you can. If you're nervous about it you can use screws and VHB. Remember that screws alone aren't that secure either since the underlying plywood base is only about 1/8" thick. VHB is used by RV manufacturers and commercial trailer manufacturers for attaching sidewalls to framing.
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Old 10-30-2018, 02:08 AM   #19
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I’m holding 5ea. 100W panels with VHB. 10 years now and there are no issues at all
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:30 PM   #20
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I had two panels installed and they worked well in Quartszite Arizona for a month. However, I installed a third panel recently. What I experienced is that my charge to full float time was reduced drastically. I now have ~18 amps charging two parallel batteries. That third panel provided me with a reserve of safety.
Recommend you call REONOGY. They provide very good pricing, free engineering/expert advice on what you need for what you desire, all equipment is tested to work and shipping is free. When it arrives in one box, go to a few RV dealers or etc for the installation. Benefit? No up charge from a dealer/installer on the equipment...just the labor to install it. Mine was at $100.00....that's cheap.
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