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Old 03-26-2012, 11:27 PM   #1
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More Battery questions

All,
I've been researching replacement coach batteries and have ended up with question related to my specific RV, hoping some of you might have advice.

I have a new to me '02 Itasca Suncruiser. It currently has 2 Optima batteries for the coach and an Interstate for the chassis. The Interstate seems to be doing fine, but the Optimas are extremely week.

I'll be using the RV this summer to do several weekend get-aways, most will be without shore power access, usually 2-3 nights.

I really don't want to deal with any more battery maintenance than I have to, so I'm leaning towards AGM. I would rather spend the money for the convenience, and I want to get it right the first time.

Are Lifeline the best out there? Should I stick with 2 12V for simplicity of instillation? How big can I get away with (based on the factory charging circuit)?

I know there are tons of threads on batteries, and I've searched through a lot of them, but unfortunately, haven't found the specifics for my application. Thanks in advance,
Kev
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:11 AM   #2
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Hi Kev,

I just installed 2 6 volt golf cart batteries (hooked in series to make 12 volts) on Saturday. I'm amazed at the difference on my battery monitor readings over the 6 month old deep cycle 12v Interstates. Bought them for $79@ at Sam's Club. They are about 2" taller, though.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:09 AM   #3
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When it comes to batteries it is a pay me now or pay me later deal.
I would take the batteries out clean everything recharge them and so a load test
so you know the shape of the batteries.
Then if needed replace them with the best you can afford that will fit.
Keep in mind a pair of 6 volt batteries will out preform a single 12 volt one.


Art
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:31 PM   #4
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[QUOTE=kevgofly;1126368]
I have a new to me '02 Itasca Suncruiser. It currently has 2 Optima batteries for the coach and an Interstate for the chassis. The Interstate seems to be doing fine, but the Optimas are extremely week.
/QUOTE]

I often see/hear folks go ga-ga over Optima and frankly. I think they are crazy (Well some exceptions) same for AGM in general (More exceptions)

Here is why: Optima are only about 60% battery as it turns out, the rest is wasted space, so a Group 29 Optima would be around 60 amp hours, v/s 100 for a "Traditionally shapped" battery no matter the type.. They are not really suited to RV use.. Now for a 4-runner, or Wave Runner or dirt bike that's going to go slamming over ruts/rocks/waves/ and the like.. These things.. Well if you hit 'em with a sledge hammer you MIGHT damage them but of all the battery designs out there they are most likely to survive.

If you are driving your "House" like that, Batteries will NOT be a concern.

AGM: Optima is a special case of AGM. People brag about the faster re-charge and how long they live.. Well LIFELINE (A specific brand of AGM) Does recommend a faster re-charge than others do however if you don't have a big enough convreter, You are not going to do that. SO there is usually no advantage there.

Second.... The "long life" PER the manufacturer's web pages where they estimate the life of the battery in cycles (Discharge/recharge) they are the SHORTEST LIVED of all the battery types.. My own expierence supports that.

I'll mention GEL, since many folks confuse AGM with GEL,, Gel is also not suited to RV use, very slow recharge, very "pickey eaters" as it were. and hard to find in big sizes, AGM is much better than GEL.

The one true advantage of all the above is "This Side Up".. No need to mount them "This Side UP" they can be shoved in any old way, On end, ON the side, even upside down.

Maintenance free, Like AGM this is a sealed Valve Regulated, Lead Acid battery, it is not a s physically rugged since there is no glass mat, and it must be mounted "THIS SIDE UP" Other than that they have the low gassing and low maintenance (Never truly maintenance free) of the above batteries. Less expensive too, Hard to find in a "Deep Cycle' though (Marine/Deep cycle is easy, but true deep cycle is not)

Flooded wet cells.. Now the common GC-2 (Golf Car) battery is a flooded wet cell, it is also a TRUE DEEP CYCLE. this means you can run them down farther and still expect the battery to recover. I've run mine down a few times to next to nothing (last time was Sunday) and they are 7 years old.

Had a lot of fun getting the motor home started (Thankfully I have one battery system that is NOT connected to the motor home, it was thus fully charged)

These are about the best "Bang for the buck" However they are high maintenance, you have to clean them a few times a year and add DISTILLED water from time to time and you specifically stated you did NOT wish to do that

But for around 150 bucks I can get 230 amp hours worth of GC2

Or for about 180 bucks I can get 200 amp hours of Marine/Deep cycle maintenance free. (now you know what I have in my house, One pair each GC-2 and Group 29) The 180 worth of G-29's replaced 300 worth of AGM's that died, and OPTIMA's would be even more expensive.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:32 PM   #5
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I certainly agree with Wa8,
We used Optimas on the FD for years and while they were nice for not having the maintenance issues, (firemen are lazy sometimes ha ha) they did not hold up for the service we demanded from them.

So, when it comes to RVs, as you've already read, there's lots of results when searching battery ideas, setups, types, and arrangements. I too have converted our house batteries from (3) 12V DeepCycle Marine Interstates to (4) 6V Golf Cart batteries from Costco. It's the best move I could have made.

Now, they've been in there and in use, for over about 5 months now and based on my particular charging system, the Dimensions 2000 watt inverter/charger and, the times we've been out camping with the coach, Iv'e yet to replace any lost water in them. I check them every other week or so and no bubbling, no issues with post corrosion or contamination etc.

I'd do it again in a heart beat. But, you have to determine, what's right for you and, of course, what will fit in your compartment.
Scott
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
When it comes to batteries it is a pay me now or pay me later deal.
and there are no magic bullets.

all lead acid batteries have about 12 watt hours per pound of usable energy capacity with loads of about 1 watt per pound. Brand, voltage, marketing label ('deep cycle' or 'marine/RV' etc) or even type (AGM, sealed, wet cell) don't make much difference compared to proper care and use.

The fact is that lead acid batteries just don't store much energy and you can't carry enough in an RV to really make a difference. You will need to adjust from the typical 30 kwh per day household use to the 1 kwh per day or so RV battery energy. Solar can help some but getting one to add more than another kwh per day is expensive and RV's don't have a lot of space for solar panels. All of this is why a genset is so common in MoHo's and B's.

If you are doing a lot of travelling - like 4 hours or more on the road every day or two, the engine alternator should help keep the batteries up but they will still need a full and complete charge for 8 to 12 hours once a week for best battery health.

batteries? buy from a reputable retailer who sells a lot to folks who use them like you do and will stand behind what he sells. Then go by price, specifications, and warranty. Bite the bullet and realize that batteries need proper care, use, and maintenance and that it is your lifestyle that needs to be adjusted to do what you want to do.

Unless it is as a hobby, don't spend a lot of time and effort stressing over AGM vs wet cell, 6v vs 12v, Trojan vs Interstate, Group 27 vs 24 (or 29 or 31 or T105), deep cycle vs Marine/RV (or even SLI) ... put your efforts into good equipment, keep the batteries out of the heat, don't over discharge, recharge promptly and with a proper vigor, store with a modern maintenance charging system that knows about sulfation inhibiting.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:59 PM   #7
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My vote is with the typical lead acid types as well. I'm working on five years with all three. (Two house; one chassis). They show no signs of weakness yet. The battery maint. takes only about fifteen minutes a month- but that could obviously vary depending on use. They are not finicky about charge rates either- the simple charger with the rig does fine and I don't ever run them all the way down. BTW, I have a Trickle-Start that connects the house batteris with the chassis one- it always keeps the chassis batt topped off when I'm camping and hooked up to shore power or on the gen. Hope all this helps you make your decision.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:09 PM   #8
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The only other thing is if you replace the house batteries do all of them and keep them the same type and group rating. Mixing new with old or different rating only degrades
the whole system.

Art
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:50 PM   #9
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WOW! Great info you guys have provided, lots to thnk about, I certainly appreciate all the knowledge you guys are bringing.

I plan to do a little more research this evening when I get home regarding the actually charging gear installed in my RV, as well as the max dimensions for the space.

On the note of space, the compartment for my batteries is directly under the steps coming into the coach. This compartment is sealed, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it being air tight to the interior of the coach. Is that an issue to the wet cell types and their venting?

I think my typical use will be underway Friday afternoon, 4-6 hour drive to location. Camp Fri, Sat nights, then underway Sunday afternoon/evening for the return trip. I'll use the genset as needed, but would like to not worry about batteries for running the heater blower through the night (LP heat), maybe using the TV some, but probably not too much, and lighting. I don't think my consumption will be that high, and I've even considered upgrading lights to LED's to further reduce consumption. This past weekend we did our first dry camping trip. Left will fully charged batteries, and the first night with almost no off gen use at bed time, I set the heat to 62 degrees on LP, and just the draw of the blowers had the Optimas at 9.4V the next morning, and it wasn't able to maintain temp through the night (that makes wife and daughter less than happy!).

Again, thanks for all the advice, still open to thoughts and suggestions. Will keep everyone posted as I learn, decide, and live with the results.
Happy travels,
Kev
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:07 PM   #10
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With 9.4 volts over night I would say the batteries are no good and need replaced.
I would not replace them with Optimas too much money for what your needs are.
You should not take deep cycle batteries below 12 volts just for information.
I use 4 of the GC-2XHD 6 volt and find them the best bang for the buck. A good
battery that you are not buying a lot of name only.

Art
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevgofly View Post
WOW! Great info you guys have provided, lots to thnk about, I certainly appreciate all the knowledge you guys are bringing.

I plan to do a little more research this evening when I get home regarding the actually charging gear installed in my RV, as well as the max dimensions for the space.

On the note of space, the compartment for my batteries is directly under the steps coming into the coach. This compartment is sealed, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it being air tight to the interior of the coach. Is that an issue to the wet cell types and their venting?

I think my typical use will be underway Friday afternoon, 4-6 hour drive to location. Camp Fri, Sat nights, then underway Sunday afternoon/evening for the return trip. I'll use the genset as needed, but would like to not worry about batteries for running the heater blower through the night (LP heat), maybe using the TV some, but probably not too much, and lighting. I don't think my consumption will be that high, and I've even considered upgrading lights to LED's to further reduce consumption. This past weekend we did our first dry camping trip. Left will fully charged batteries, and the first night with almost no off gen use at bed time, I set the heat to 62 degrees on LP, and just the draw of the blowers had the Optimas at 9.4V the next morning, and it wasn't able to maintain temp through the night (that makes wife and daughter less than happy!).

Again, thanks for all the advice, still open to thoughts and suggestions. Will keep everyone posted as I learn, decide, and live with the results.
Happy travels,
Kev

Mine are located there too- not to worry, what little gassing they do dissapates quickly and you should have a rubber seal going around the area where the step cover fits in. There is a large open space under my battery tray that exposes the batteries to the outside, so that's where everything goes. Unless your charger got stuck on "equalize" mode- you should never have odor problems inside. And...most of the installed charger/converters that were put in when your rv was built only have one mode anyway...more or less a "float"- to keep them topped off.
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:46 PM   #12
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I have 2 GC batteries (Trojan T-105s, 5 years old) We can go 48 hours (down to 12.1v) without re-charge. This includes, 2 TVs, lights, safety systems, water pump and we run a 12v exaust ceiling fan many hours a day.

Mine are under steps also, no problem.
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:54 PM   #13
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Optima does not make a true deep cycle battery. I chose a Lifeline 150AH AGM. In part because they are robust and some off road is going to happen. The other factors are they are recombinant and do not need to be watered and the high rate of charging.
When you look closely at Lifeline/Concord batteries they are currently the most advanced AGM and until new technology comes to the fore the best quality but not the least expensive.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:20 PM   #14
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Can anyone offer advice on how many AH I should be looking for? I haven't figured out a way to find an average draw without doing a tremendous amount of research (i.e. how much current would each device draw per given period of operation, then averaging an estimate of how much they would actually operate, etc.. ), is there a "ball-park" rule of thumb estimate?

I just did a quick search on the 150AH AGM, I new they were expensive, but I didn't realize they were in the $500 each range. This may be off, but the first two sites I found where right around that (ouch!).
Kev
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:31 PM   #15
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Look into the GC-2 XHD they are 232 amp hour and cost something in the order of
139.00. Interstate will also replace no questions asked for a year if there is a problem.


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Old 03-27-2012, 05:51 PM   #16
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Kev,
You're getting good info here. Lots to chose from. Long story short: We bought a '99 Bounder with the F-53 Chassis and V-10. It came with two, Trojan T-105 House batts. They lasted about 5 years and started to bulge tremendously. I took them to a battery outlet that we did business with on the FD. They took one look at them and said they were junk. I purchased two brand new Trojans and they lasted about 4 years 'till they developed a problem of not staying charged. I did all the maintenance etc, I just did not have good luck with them.

When I went to purchase some more, they over doubled in price. They were, at the time, about 3 years ago, $140.00 ea. So, I purchased two Interstates, U-2200 6V for $80.00 ea. at Quartzsite during the big RV event.

Well, in doing the change over in our present coach, I went with the 230AH Costco golf cart ones. They went up just about a week before I purchased them. They are now, $90.00 each, here in the San Diego area. Again, I'd do it again in a heart beat. But, if you determine you'd like to go that way, take good measurements, twice. And then determine if they'll fit. Sams Club has good deals on them too but, we're not members there.
Scott
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:23 AM   #17
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My under the steps battery box was 1/4 inch too shallow for the new golf cart batteries. Here is how I solved the problem:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f87/raise...es-119071.html
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevgofly
Can anyone offer advice on how many AH I should be looking for?
Kev
Yes, as much as you can fit into those 2 spots. Which is going to be 225-230AH. The Interstate U2200 and Trojan T-105 are in this range and are both about the same price, depending on where you buy.

If you have a good 3 stage charger (PD or IOTA) and never let them below 50%, you should get 8-9 years out of them as many have reported here. I presently have 5 years on my Trojans and they perform as new.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:56 AM   #19
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Just got two U.S. Battery US 125 XC 6V 242 AH batteries at a local battery warehouse outlet on 02/01/12 for $140 each, installed. This is a popular (high sales volume) battery for golf carts and industrial use, and for me it was a nice price point. As the capacity goes up, the incremental cost starts to rise dramatically.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:23 AM   #20
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You guys are the greatest! I can't believe how generous everyone is passing on experience, preventing guys like me from learning the hard way!

So right now I have two 12V's which is (I believe) the way the coach was set up from the factory. I think I have plenty of room for 2 6 Volt (like T-105's or U-2200), if I change to 6V, are there any changes that need to be made to the charging system, or is it simply change from two 12's in parrallel to two 6's in series? I feel comfortable doing the battery change out, re-cabling, but if there is something I can do to optimize the charging set up, I'm not aware of anything.

Finally, what are you guys using to determine when you are approaching 50% capacity? If it's voltage, do you check it while theres a load on? I check my digital wall voltmeter last night against an actual calibrated Fluke voltmeter directly on the batteries, and the installed VM was .2V high. I'll watch this to see if it consistant, but I would guess it's just unreliable/unpredicatable.

Again, thanks for all the feedback,
Kev
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